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Energy price rises and price cap discussion.

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Bantamzen

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How do you value your time?

Two hours commuting at minimum wage would be about £20 (before tax and NI)
Thankfully I work flexible hours, so I'm not really losing anything other than the actual cost. And if I have an MCard it will cost me the same whether I use it or not. And personally I much prefer getting into the office, sometimes making part of my commute a nice walk along the Leeds Liverpool canal.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Two hours commuting at minimum wage would be about £20 (before tax and NI)

We're on a rail forum. Plenty of people here enjoy rail travel. Even if you don't specifically enjoy it, it's often a nice piece of time away from the stresses of a young family when you can sit quietly and read a book.

Obviously if your usual train is full and standing that value is lower.

Or if you cycle or walk, that's valuable exercise time you don't need to spend in the gym.

It's only really car commuting that's a "dead loss" but equally some enjoy driving and you can listen to podcasts.
 

Dai Corner

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We're on a rail forum. Plenty of people here enjoy rail travel. Even if you don't specifically enjoy it, it's often a nice piece of time away from the stresses of a young family when you can sit quietly and read a book.

Obviously if your usual train is full and standing that value is lower.

Or if you cycle or walk, that's valuable exercise time you don't need to spend in the gym.

It's only really car commuting that's a "dead loss" but equally some enjoy driving and you can listen to podcasts.
Yes, but you could be enjoying an alternative train, cycle, walking or car journey instead of the one you've done hundreds or thousands of times before.
 

jon0844

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Certainly anyone who's finding things tight who buys lunch from Pret or similar and a couple of three quid coffees each day needs to stop whining and cut out those luxuries. Even if you insist on "proper coffee" you can take your own ground and cafetiere/Aeropress to the office and have decent coffee for pence per cup, and you can make sandwiches, or even switch to a Tesco meal deal or Greggs pasty to halve the cost from the likes of Pret. And anyone who spends out three quid on a cup of tea and is short of money needs their head examining, it's exactly the same as if you make it yourself, costing about 10p if that.

Trick for flasks by the way, flask tea tastes fine if you carry milk separately. It's the "cooking" of the milk that makes it taste manky.

No problem with people spending on those luxuries if they can afford it, but if things are getting tight then they are easy things to cut.

You are indeed right, and it's also right that people should be dressing warmer to use less energy to heat (even if gas was almost free - just from an environmental point of view) but it's so sad that we're now in a position where people have to cut back on just about everything and end up working just to keep afloat - and may have to cut back on all the things that makes life worth living.

I wonder how this will impact on mental health and suicides? Lockdown was hard on people, but at least you could still go out and, unless you were a freelancer or contractor, chances are you were still getting an income and possibly even saving money being at home. Now people are expected to continue to work, for less money inflation wise, and with almost all disposable income used up.

Many people are going to wonder what's the point? To some, having a bit of 'me time' to have a coffee in a Starbucks, or to order in when you're too tired to cook, are not just extravagant luxuries reserved for the rich and famous.
 

Howardh

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Trick for flasks by the way, flask tea tastes fine if you carry milk separately. It's the "cooking" of the milk that makes it taste manky.
I make a flask of tea with a teabag inside, after a minute of stirring I add milk and sugar, tastes OK to me! It's difficult adding milk to a drink when you're on a train, can spill all over the place!! Also prefer long-life milk to "ordinary" and I get through two litres of that a week. Probably a saving over ordinary milk these days, but that's not a deliberate attempt to save, I actually prefer the taste of long life! Must ask the cat who might have a different opinion...
 

Bletchleyite

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Yes, but you could be enjoying an alternative train, cycle, walking or car journey instead of the one you've done hundreds or thousands of times before.

Not if you've got to start work at 9am, unless you enjoy getting up really early for a random pre-work train ride!

I make a flask of tea with a teabag inside, after a minute of stirring I add milk and sugar, tastes OK to me! It's difficult adding milk to a drink when you're on a train, can spill all over the place!! Also prefer long-life milk to "ordinary" and I get through two litres of that a week. Probably a saving over ordinary milk these days, but that's not a deliberate attempt to save, I actually prefer the taste of long life! Must ask the cat who might have a different opinion...

I think the stuff is vile but find that the filtered stuff is a bit nicer than normal and keeps almost as well as UHT as long as it's in the fridge. Though back on topic anyone who only really uses the fridge for milk could save money on energy by switching to UHT.

I don't see how adding milk to a drink is any more difficult than pouring it from the flask in the first place. There aren't any Pacers left you know!
 

Trainbike46

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Not if you've got to start work at 9am, unless you enjoy getting up really early for a random pre-work train ride!



I think the stuff is vile but find that the filtered stuff is a bit nicer than normal and keeps almost as well as UHT as long as it's in the fridge. Though back on topic anyone who only really uses the fridge for milk could save money on energy by switching to UHT.
Once opened they still need to be refrigerated, so you'd still need the fridge.

I do think a lot of people are cutting back on luxuries already (and this is likely to continue), for example look at how many subscribers netflix lost over the last year
 

Bletchleyite

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You are indeed right, and it's also right that people should be dressing warmer to use less energy to heat (even if gas was almost free - just from an environmental point of view) but it's so sad that we're now in a position where people have to cut back on just about everything and end up working just to keep afloat - and may have to cut back on all the things that makes life worth living.

It's sad, but Europe is at war, which is the main cause of these high gas prices. In wartime, sacrifices are necessary. Ours are much lower than those people had to endure in WW II, as provided it doesn't go nuclear we won't be fearing being blown up on top of it.

To some, having a bit of 'me time' to have a coffee in a Starbucks, or to order in when you're too tired to cook, are not just extravagant luxuries reserved for the rich and famous.

Purchasing a prepared lunch daily is a luxury. It just shows how good a time many have had of things over the last 20 years or so that it's now an expectation. Fish and chips or a curry once a week is reasonably treating yourself. And if you want that "me time", go to Spoons and pay a quid for a refillable coffee instead.

Once opened they still need to be refrigerated, so you'd still need the fridge.

They actually don't (though they taste even mankier warm). My parents got in the habit of buying the muck after Chernobyl irradiated the cows and stuck with it, and they'd usually buy the 1l cartons and leave them on the side by the kettle, they never went off in the time they'd take to be used. I put up with it for camping, and even if it's roasting hot a one pint carton will last a day unrefrigerated.

I do think a lot of people are cutting back on luxuries already (and this is likely to continue), for example look at how many subscribers netflix lost over the last year

Netflix lost me as a customer as they moved to US style serials as their main product rather than films. And obviously cinema is a thing again, and a Cineworld* unlimited card costs about the same monthly as Netflix.

* Yes, I know they're not doing well.
 

najaB

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Thinking if people WFH and never need to go to the office, they could work from a warm hotel room or lobby overseas! Bet that's been done before, and if it has if productivity is the same then no issues?
I got stuck* overseas during the second lockdown period. My HR department was quite insistent that I returned before tax thresholds were reached triggering different liabilities, so that would be a consideration for many people.

*I tried to get back, honest!
 

Bletchleyite

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I got stuck* overseas during the second lockdown period. My HR department was quite insistent that I returned before tax thresholds were reached triggering different liabilities, so that would be a consideration for many people.

*I tried to get back, honest!

In my present contract I am not permitted to connect the work laptop to the Internet outside the UK. I don't doubt there's a few like that. And yes, there are tax implications to spending too much time abroad, particularly post-Brexit but even before it.

OK, I could get some sort of physical VPN device (I can't install software on the actual laptop) but I don't find breaches of trust to be particuarly beneficial to a good long term employment relationship so I'm not going to be doing that.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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Strange then that renewables are cheaper than gas by a significant margin...
They weren't but given current price levels most certainly are now but we aren't benefitting from that due to the energy market design using marginal pricing. Put simply the last generator on the system sets the price for all generators and as NG have us use the CCGTs (Combined Cycle Gas Turbines) to keeps the system supplied with enough energy to match demand every generator is benefitting who doesn't have a pre agreed energy supply agreement. So todays level is above £600/MWH its was 50-75 12 mths ago this is because the day ahead gas price is off the scale although it has retreated from the ridiculous peak seen last week which was all built up by speculators. It is this price which OFGEM monitor daily and are using to set the unit rate price for the energy cap but it bares no resemeblence to what many of the enrgy suppliers are actually paying for their gas as they have long term supply arrangements put in place when prices were much lower. Oh and to make it worse its the nasty can't be trusted big 6 energy suppliers that have these arrangements not the stupid poorly capitilised small suppliers that all went bust leaving consumers having to pick up the bill (already over £100 loaded onto standing charge and if they have to recover Bulbs losses will be another £150).

NETA (new electricity trading arrangements) needs to be suspended and basically the Electricity System Operator needs to be empowered to run the system for least cost with generators being paid what its actually costing them not the system marginal price. Doubt it will happen as that would expose the Tories to being blamed for the last 12 years of failing consumers but unless radical action is taken to take speculation out of the equation along with system marginal pricing then the economic consequences are going to be catastrophic as the government cannot subsidise the market at these prices indefinitely and if it tries to without teh changes the speculators will have a field day.
 

Dai Corner

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Not if you've got to start work at 9am.
Working at home you would be finished and home an hour earlier and could go to bed an hour later and get up hour later in the morning. That would free up two hours in the evening. In the summer use that for your leisure train/cycle/car ride. In the winter use it for household chores and travel on your rest days.
 

najaB

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Most people will just need to turn down the thermostat a bit froml to "fleece hoodie, joggers, shoes and socks" level.
I would love to see some actual hard figures on average central heating temperatures. My gut feeling is that there aren't really that many people of limited means who are heating their houses that much.
 

DelayRepay

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Working from home with the heating on still might be cheaper than commuting + parking, buying cafe food + coffee etc. Has anyone here number-crunched and come to that conclusion?
I did the sums and I think even with the price rises, home working will be cheaper for me.

I can adjust my heating to only heat the small bedroom that I use as an office during the day, which even at the new prices I don't think will be an excessive cost. And as others have said, wearing a jumper and thick socks/slippers will enable me to reduce the temperature. Petrol is also expensive and I think it would cost me more to drive to work and back than running a radiator for the day. I've not factored food and drink in because I could take my own, although in practice I often don't so it's another expense, along with a bought coffee.

The cost of electricity is negligible - on summer days there's virtually no difference between my electricity use on WFH days compared to office days. WFH can actually bring electricity savings, e.g. being home during the day means washing can be put outside to dry.

Thinking if people WFH and never need to go to the office, they could work from a warm hotel room or lobby overseas! Bet that's been done before, and if it has if productivity is the same then no issues?

During the Covid times, my local pub was promoting its self as a place to work. They were aiming themselves at people who didn't have a good home working environment but their office was closed. From memory they charged you a few quid and you got use of the wifi and free coffee. I think they hoped to make their money from people buying lunch and snacks. I don't think many people took advantage.

I guess there could be a set up where people pay towards the pub's heating costs, if there are enough people interested then it could mean a lower cost per head than everyone heating their own house.

I would have liked to use this arrangement just to be around other people instead of being alone at home all day. But my employer prohibits it due to the risk of confidential information being exposed.
 

Howardh

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I make a flask of tea with a teabag inside, after a minute of stirring I add milk and sugar, tastes OK to me! It's difficult adding milk to a drink when you're on a train, can spill all over the place!! Also prefer long-life milk to "ordinary" and I get through two litres of that a week. Probably a saving over ordinary milk these days, but that's not a deliberate attempt to save, I actually prefer the taste of long life! Must ask the cat who might have a different opinion...
I struggle with those lids they put on the hot cups in station cafe's and on the trains. At Bolton recently, they put the tea into a double paper cup with the lid firmly on, and I scalded myself opening it to put the milk and sugar on. Makes flasks more desirable but they need carrying round all day! Which is what I intend to do in winter, fill a large one up and make the journey Bolton > Stalybridge > Airport > Bolton on a day ticket with my pre-prepared lunch in a bag. All those stations have a warm waiting room, and the upstars area at Piccadilly should be pleasant enough.

Note on the above - long-life milk does indeed need to be stored in the fridge after opening, however it will last a long time there before going "off". I've been away for three/four days and come back to find the milk still fresh!
 

Dai Corner

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They weren't but given current price levels most certainly are now but we aren't benefitting from that due to the energy market design using marginal pricing. Put simply the last generator on the system sets the price for all generators and as NG have us use the CCGTs (Combined Cycle Gas Turbines) to keeps the system supplied with enough energy to match demand every generator is benefitting who doesn't have a pre agreed energy supply agreement. So todays level is above £600/MWH its was 50-75 12 mths ago this is because the day ahead gas price is off the scale although it has retreated from the ridiculous peak seen last week which was all built up by speculators. It is this price which OFGEM monitor daily and are using to set the unit rate price for the energy cap but it bares no resemeblence to what many of the enrgy suppliers are actually paying for their gas as they have long term supply arrangements put in place when prices were much lower. Oh and to make it worse its the nasty can't be trusted big 6 energy suppliers that have these arrangements not the stupid poorly capitilised small suppliers that all went bust leaving consumers having to pick up the bill (already over £100 loaded onto standing charge and if they have to recover Bulbs losses will be another £150).

NETA (new electricity trading arrangements) needs to be suspended and basically the Electricity System Operator needs to be empowered to run the system for least cost with generators being paid what its actually costing them not the system marginal price. Doubt it will happen as that would expose the Tories to being blamed for the last 12 years of failing consumers but unless radical action is taken to take speculation out of the equation along with system marginal pricing then the economic consequences are going to be catastrophic as the government cannot subsidise the market at these prices indefinitely and if it tries to without teh changes the speculators will have a field day.
But not all electricity is traded at the marginal price is it? My (big 6) supplier must have long term contracts in place to enable them to offer me a price around half the cap?
 

Trainbike46

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But not all electricity is traded at the marginal price is it? My (big 6) supplier must have long term contracts in place to enable them to offer me a price around half the cap?
Given that (most) big six supplier own their own power stations they could theoretically bypass the market alltogether
 

Bletchleyite

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I would love to see some actual hard figures on average central heating temperatures. My gut feeling is that there aren't really that many people of limited means who are heating their houses that much.

It's more aimed at the whining middle classes who mostly do do that.
 

najaB

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They actually don't (though they taste even mankier warm). My parents got in the habit of buying the muck after Chernobyl irradiated the cows and stuck with it, and they'd usually buy the 1l cartons and leave them on the side by the kettle, they never went off in the time they'd take to be used. I put up with it for camping, and even if it's roasting hot a one pint carton will last a day unrefrigerated.
Well, you don't have to refrigerate it but by the same token you don't have to avoid food poisoning. Once the carton is opened the milk inside is exposed to the same bacteria and spores as any other food and there is nothing inherently antimicrobial about it - unlike foods like jam, honey or spreads that have too high a sugar/salt content for rapid microbial growth.
 

Bletchleyite

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I struggle with those lids they put on the hot cups in station cafe's and on the trains. At Bolton recently, they put the tea into a double paper cup with the lid firmly on, and I scalded myself opening it to put the milk and sugar on. Makes flasks more desirable but they need carrying round all day! Which is what I intend to do in winter, fill a large one up and make the journey Bolton > Stalybridge > Airport > Bolton on a day ticket with my pre-prepared lunch in a bag. All those stations have a warm waiting room, and the upstars area at Piccadilly should be pleasant enough.

Doesn't everyone take some sort of bag to work, if nothing else to put their coat in if it's too warm for it on the way home?

Note on the above - long-life milk does indeed need to be stored in the fridge after opening, however it will last a long time there before going "off". I've been away for three/four days and come back to find the milk still fresh!

It doesn't. It just doesn't last as long if you don't. How important that is depends on how quickly you use it and what size you buy.

The filtered stuff lasts a week in the fridge, by the way - it's great - almost as long life as UHT (if in the fridge) but tastes better than normal!

Well, you don't have to refrigerate it but by the same token you don't have to avoid food poisoning.

You won't get food poisoning by drinking UHT milk that's been out for a day or so unless you're severely immunosuppressed. That's my usual way of doing milk when camping, I tend not to take other things needing refrigeration - one 500ml UHT per day, it's fine even if it's roasting hot. Most families will easily use a litre carton in a day - most of it will be gone by the time they've all had their breakfast cereal.

People did used to live without refrigeration, you know!
 

najaB

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You won't get food poisoning by drinking UHT milk that's been out for a day or so unless you're severely immunosuppressed. That's my usual way of doing milk when camping, I tend not to take other things needing refrigeration - one 500ml UHT per day, it's fine even if it's roasting hot. Most families will easily use a litre carton in a day - most of it will be gone by the time they've all had their breakfast cereal.

People did used to live without refrigeration, you know!
Agreed. But there's a difference between "You won't get food poisoning by drinking UHT milk that's been out for a day" and a blanket "They actually don't [need to be refrigerated]". Even a fresh pint of pasteurised milk would be fine out of the fridge for a day.

UHT will last slightly longer than fresh simply because it has a lower starting load of microbes, not because of any inherent anti-microbial property of the milk itself. If you were, for example, to drink directly from the carton and give it a load of bacteria from your moth it would spoil just as quickly as fresh.
 

Bletchleyite

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Agreed. But there's a difference between "You won't get food poisoning by drinking UHT milk that's been out for a day" and a blanket "They actually don't [need to be refrigerated]". Even a fresh pint of pasteurised milk would be fine out of the fridge for a day.

Milk, of all kinds, will keep different periods of time depending on if it's frozen or refrigerated. Due to the lack of bacteria in it to start with, UHT will keep longer in all forms than non UHT. That's basically it.
 

JamesT

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But not all electricity is traded at the marginal price is it? My (big 6) supplier must have long term contracts in place to enable them to offer me a price around half the cap?
Yes, it's normally referred to as 'hedging' where the utility companies will buy ahead at a fixed price and only have to buy a small amount to cover any shortfall on the spot market.
Which is where many of the smaller retailers failed, as they didn't manage to hedge far enough in advance so ended up buying expensive gas/electric to supply to their customers on cheap fixed-rate tariffs.
Though if the prices remain high for sufficiently long all the cheap hedges from before will run out, which is why very few retailers are offering fixed-rate tariffs any more. Those that are have put a significant premium which presumably reflects the current hedged price.
 

najaB

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Milk, of all kinds, will keep different periods of time depending on if it's frozen or refrigerated. Due to the lack of bacteria in it to start with, UHT will keep longer in all forms than non UHT. That's basically it.
FWIW, I'm not being pedantic for pedantry's sake*. Internet indexing is super weird and posts here can show up in the results to seemingly unrelated searches - people who are looking to save money may well come across this thread. While it's clear that you know what you mean when you say that UHT doesn't need to be refrigerated - ie. that it doesn't need refrigeration any more or less than regular milk, not everyone necessarily will get that.

*Though, don't get me wrong, I do spend more time in pedant's corner than is conducive to maintaining a large social circle.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Wasn't it a Daily Mail reporter, writing from home, that told other people to get back to work to boost the economy (read; help corporate landlords and the likes of Pret). Or maybe that was the Telegraph. Or more likely both..
I wonder why the Daily Mail and the Daily Telegraph are mentioned so often in postings on this website? Does no-one read the Daily Mirror any more?
 

Bletchleyite

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...especially in a house without the central heating on in winter, which I think is what we're talking about.

When I was redoing my kitchen (in winter) I just put it in the unheated back porch.

FWIW, I'm not being pedantic for pedantry's sake*. Internet indexing is super weird and posts here can show up in the results to seemingly unrelated searches - people who are looking to save money may well come across this thread. While it's clear that you know what you mean when you say that UHT doesn't need to be refrigerated - ie. that it doesn't need refrigeration any more or less than regular milk, not everyone necessarily will get that.

*Though, don't get me wrong, I do spend more time in pedant's corner than is conducive to maintaining a large social circle.

It DOES need it less than regular milk. Because the UHT process - boiling it, basically - kills most of the "resident bacteria", it takes far longer for it to build back up to dangerous levels than normal milk.

It will keep longer in the fridge than not, but so will almost anything, even things that don't normally get refrigerated at all e.g. ketchup.
 

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I wonder why the Daily Mail and the Daily Telegraph are mentioned so often in postings on this website? Does no-one read the Daily Mirror any more?
The Daily Heil and Torygraph... sorry, Mail and Telegraph are barometers of right-wing sentiment in the UK. The Daily Mirror is left-leaning, so their musings are of somewhat less import while we have a Conservative government.
 
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alxndr

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I would love to see some actual hard figures on average central heating temperatures. My gut feeling is that there aren't really that many people of limited means who are heating their houses that much.
Indeed, it took until yesterday, at the age of 26, and all the current discussions about heating and energy to have the striking realisation that perhaps there are people who don't expect to feel cold indoors in winter. For me being cold in winter is such an inevitable and logical thing that it genuinely never occurred to me that it's not a universal experience.

Speaking about it with my partner they informed me that most people don't expect to be cold. The disagreements we have over temperatures suddenly made sense to us.

It's not hard figures, but I can say that it's common enough in some circles not to heat a house to warm temperatures that I those those who did were the outliers rather than the norm.

EDIT: I've just found an "energy insight" email from Hive for October 2020 (prior to my partner moving in):
How your home heated in October
Comparison was based on over over 62000 homes in your region: South West
Average daily high16.8°
Average daily low15.3°
Month average15.9°
Lower than other Hive homes near you3.6°
At this time I would have been in full control of the thermostat, in no financial difficulty, just heating to my expectation of a house in winter.
 
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