European Sleeper experience

[danchester]

Looks like the inaugural service next Wednesday has had its arrival pushed back too, now not arriving in Venice until 1650. Certainly far from ideal, especially given that catering will stop at 0930. Must be going pretty slowly or factoring in some long dwell times. If nothing else this has been a fascinating live demonstration of the complexities of running a train through five countries!

 

[HS2isgood]

The original path through Italy was ridiculously fast.

 

[chris2]

Does anyone have experience of the sleeper trains through Italy? I’ve happily booked a bunch for a trip down to Sicily and back, but reading all this has made me wonder if I should lower my expectations / make some plan B’s?

 

[D6130]

Does anyone have experience of the sleeper trains through Italy? I’ve happily booked a bunch for a trip down to Sicily and back, but reading all this has made me wonder if I should lower my expectations / make some plan B’s?

Suggest you page @Iskra for the relevant info. Despite my my many thousands of kilometres of rail travel in Italy, I've never used their internal sleepers.

 

[popeter45]

Looks like the inaugural service next Wednesday has had its arrival pushed back too, now not arriving in Venice until 1650. Certainly far from ideal, especially given that catering will stop at 0930. Must be going pretty slowly or factoring in some long dwell times. If nothing else this has been a fascinating live demonstration of the complexities of running a train through five countries!

looking at all the current dates, seems the first 2 have an extra hour and a half between Bolzano and Verona

 

[AlbertBeale]

Does anyone have experience of the sleeper trains through Italy? I’ve happily booked a bunch for a trip down to Sicily and back, but reading all this has made me wonder if I should lower my expectations / make some plan B’s?

I've used the long Milan-Sicily direct overnight route - it was a fine experience; I've also done one or two shorter overnights within Italy. The trains were reasonably punctual - certainly no worse than Italian long-distance day trains. The facilities in the sleeper compartments were perfectly OK - nothing especially luxurious, but reasonable for the money. No complaints really.

 

[Iskra]

Does anyone have experience of the sleeper trains through Italy? I’ve happily booked a bunch for a trip down to Sicily and back, but reading all this has made me wonder if I should lower my expectations / make some plan B’s?

I use them at least once a year. The regular berths are fine and generally good value for money. I did try the Excelsior Sleeper (enhanced room with en-suite shower) last year and found that expensive and that the cabin was in a poor state of repair with the AC not working and shower cold so I wouldn’t bother paying the extra for that cabin if it’s an option on your journey.

Overall I like the Italian sleepers, but a couple of drawbacks are that the breakfast is very basic, they are driven upto 100mph and have more overnight station calls so are less of a gentle ride compared to British sleepers and punctuality can be an issue as with most sleeper trains. This is especially true on the Sicily train ferry sleepers, the ones that stay on the mainland are more reliable. There are more details of individual journeys in my trip report thread if you like.

 

[chris2]

Thanks for the replies everyone. Good to hear people’s experiences.

 

[Nunners]

Does anyone have experience of the sleeper trains through Italy? I’ve happily booked a bunch for a trip down to Sicily and back, but reading all this has made me wonder if I should lower my expectations / make some plan B’s?

I've used them three times (including one to Sicily) and they were all reasonably on time (<15 mins late).

 

[JGurney]

Does anyone have experience of the sleeper trains through Italy?

My wife & I got a sleeper from Bari to Milan last summer, and it was fine. The bunks were comfy enough, the cabin much like others. The breakfast was small but tasty.

 

[danchester]

Interesting that they're running three sleeper coaches tonight, two to Venice and one to Prague. I thought they only had two of those old things but I must have been mistaken. Certainly guarantees they won't have a spare if things go pear shaped!

 

[AlbertBeale]

Woops - I'd forgotten this thread was about European Sleeper (but has veered off to general Italy sleepers) - so replied irrelevantly to the last post. Now deleted.

 

[MattSGB]

I have been looking at European Sleeper again for a summer trip returning from Prague to Brussels, followed by a Eurostar to London. However, I just can't justify paying their fares compared to the competition. A double sleeper would cost €498. This is semi-flex as the non-flex tickets are sold out six months ahead.

So I've decided to shuffle the itinerary around and instead travel on the new NightJet sleeper carriages from Vienna to Amsterdam. For their top-tier sleeper compartment (branded "double plus"), with extra space and a shower, it costs €464.80. I just can't justify travelling with ES for extra money, while accepting the risk of another painful unannounced downgrade in a knackered old relic of a carriage. The direct Eurostar costs only a little extra from Amsterdam instead of Brussels.

To take the downgrade to ES comfort levels and elevated risk of downgrades, I feel they need to be charging closer to €300 for a double sleeper. Saying that, they still seem to be selling well, but surely other people are also going to look at the alternatives. When NightJet eventually put their new units on the Brussels to Vienna route, that will likely be me done with European Sleeper.

 

[popeter45]

Interesting that they're running three sleeper coaches tonight, two to Venice and one to Prague. I thought they only had two of those old things but I must have been mistaken. Certainly guarantees they won't have a spare if things go pear shaped!

afaik the venice set is totally separate from the prague set
both are hired in stock from an operator who i think has few.

GfF own WLABee 001,003,004,006
euro own 010

 

[Peterthegreat]

There are strong rumours the train will not get to Venice (or even Italy).

 

[danchester]

Yes, according to reports (so far only in Dutch) they got a call from the Italians at 9pm last night to say the train can't enter Italy. There's something about OBB stepping in to provide a last minute connection from there but it's unclear whether they're just referring to the existing RJ service (change at Verona) or a new service entirely. Some rumours are suggesting the supposed issue was around fire regulations and the age of the European Sleeper stock - I suspect we'll know more soon.

Nederlandse nachttrein naar Venetië valt in duigen: ’We mogen plots de grens niet over’

Nederlandse nachttrein naar Venetië valt in duigen: ’We mogen plots de grens niet over’. Lees verder op telegraaf.nl

www.telegraaf.nl

Either way a pretty embarrassing thing to have to announce at the press event for your inaugural service, not just for ES but I imagine also for the invited Italian and EU politicians...

 

[popeter45]

Yes, according to reports (so far only in Dutch) they got a call from the Italians at 9pm last night to say the train can't enter Italy. There's something about OBB stepping in to provide a last minute connection from there but it's unclear whether they're just referring to the existing RJ service (change at Verona) or a new service entirely. Some rumours are suggesting the supposed issue was around fire regulations and the age of the European Sleeper stock - I suspect we'll know more soon.

Either way a pretty embarrassing thing to have to announce at the press event for your inaugural service, not just for ES but I imagine also for the invited Italian and EU politicians...

any reports on on-board?, on DB still showing as going the entire way and assume people on board would have been told by now if its being canned at the boarder
so far havent heard anything of such news from people onboard or at the press conference

 

[rvdborgt]

any reports on on-board?, on DB still showing as going the entire way and assume people on board would have been told by now if its being canned at the boarder

In Brussels, they already showed "Change trains at Innsbruck" on the indicator above the platform:

Eerste rit van nachttrein Brussel-Venetië loopt in de soep: 40 minuten vertraging en tóch overstappen

Het moest een feestelijke gebeurtenis worden, maar de eerste rit van de nieuwe nachttrein tussen Brussel en Venetië is volledig in de soep gelopen. De reis die 21 uur duurt, begon met een vertraging van maar liefst 40 minuten. Daarnaast moeten reizigers plots overstappen in het Oostenrijkse...

www.hln.be

And I believe passengers had been informed via e-mail.

 

[Bletchleyite]

any reports on on-board?, on DB still showing as going the entire way and assume people on board would have been told by now if its being canned at the boarder
so far havent heard anything of such news from people onboard or at the press conference

Mark Smith/Man in Seat 61 has been Tweeting/Xing from it.

 

[popeter45]

Mark Smith/Man in Seat 61 has been Tweeting/Xing from it.

yea thats what ive been watching and of anybody to say such a change it would be him but nothing
just the train arriving, room tour, food then sleep
all ive seen is people not on the train posting these 2 articals that seems that one is using the other as a source

 

[danchester]

From an Italian forum:

Initially there was talk of a limitation of the service in Verona, with the need for passengers to continue independently towards Venice using Trenitalia trains.

The Dutch article mentions that as of last week, Bolsano had become the proposed terminus. Last night it changed again to Innsbruck.

Which surely puts paid to the idea of fire regulations being the obstruction. More about pathing perhaps? The timetable was very vague and constantly changing after all.

 

[popeter45]

From an Italian forum:

The Dutch article mentions that as of last week, Bolsano had become the proposed terminus. Last night it changed again to Innsbruck.

Which surely puts paid to the idea of fire regulations being the obstruction. More about pathing perhaps? The timetable was very vague and constantly changing after all.

idea that would fit both worlds of running/not running and explain the long wait tonight between bolsano and verona

issue with locomotive being allowed in italy?, so swapping out for a OBB one at the boarder?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does it have a driving trailer? I seem to recall a big hoo-ha about all Italian trains now requiring one and loco shunts no longer being permitted?

 

[popeter45]

Does it have a driving trailer? I seem to recall a big hoo-ha about all Italian trains now requiring one and loco shunts no longer being permitted?

yea no control car, as with the new railjet stock not being approved for control car movement yet, top and tailing is allowed to get around this

 

[MarcVD]

yea no control car, as with the new railjet stock not being approved for control car movement yet, top and tailing is allowed to get around this

Allowed may be but definitely not enforced. I took a Railjet from Verona to Innsbruck two weeks ago and there was only one loc, and the control car just behind it. No second loc at the end of the train.

 

[danchester]

A bit more detail here. Venice was ruled out because ES's Italian partner didn't have a second loco to turn the train around.

Uncertainty over Italian approval
Why the train is not allowed to enter Italy is not yet clear to Engelsman. “We still have to find that out properly. There has been a lot of contact, but that was mainly focused on: what is possible? What solution can we offer our passengers?” European Sleeper is in any case happy that the ÖBB is accepting the tickets, so that passengers can continue their journey to Venice without extra costs. “Of course we will still receive an invoice for that, but we are happy that they are helping us.”

Heading in Venice
The reason why the train was originally supposed to be cancelled between Verona and Venice is well known. Trains in Venice need to be able to turn around due to the crowds, which requires a second locomotive. This turned out to be unfeasible. The first experience with the Italian operator Arenaways may have been negative, but Engelsman is confident that they will prove to be a reliable partner. “They have a lot of experience with parties like us.”

https://www.treinreiziger.nl/eerste-nachttrein-van-european-sleeper-naar-venetie-eindigt-in-innsbruck/

 

[Bletchleyite]

"The Man in Seat 61" has not long posted this on X:

So the European Sleeper has had to terminate at Innsbruck, with a swish onward Austrian railjet providing our connection to Italy. But it’s a sunny day, beautiful mountains and everyone is chilled.

I guess he must have got a free trip in return for it being an advertising feature.

 

[MattSGB]

He later went on to say:

They then got a phone call day before yesterday from their Italian operator, unable to take the train south of Innsbruck. Again, ES hope to fix this for later departures. It’s not easy, running a train across 5 countries!

That's probably the most damning part - they knew two days earlier and seemingly didn't tell their passengers until they had already departed.

I was on their first service with a restaurant car last year. The industry and social media journalists being plied with free booze didn't bother making the journey to Brussels, they all departed the train in the evening. So they perhaps didn't realise that the train was missing it's sleeper car, again, and that it subsequently got diverted all over the Netherlands and bypassed Amsterdam completely. I guess European Sleeper were hoping that the journalists wouldn't notice this time that the train never made it to Italy.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Woops - I'd forgotten this thread was about European Sleeper (but has veered off to general Italy sleepers) - so replied irrelevantly to the last post. Now deleted.

I'd lay the blame for that solely with the operators for choosing such a generic name, it's a trap I fell into a while back too. It's the same as if the Open Access operator Grand Central were trading as "British Trains".

They aren't the only operators of Sleeper trains in Europe, so calling themselves "European Sleeper" is daft.

 

[mad_rich]

I was on the inaugural.

We had a message from ES on Monday saying it would terminate in Verona, with connection on Regional to Venice arriving 1650. (2h50 later than it says in my booking, as well as a retimed departure from Brussels)

Rumours swirling on Wed evening that we would terminate in Innsbruck, and indeed a brief message to that effect on the platform boards.

There was then no info at all on board about plans (the PA system wasn’t working, and the staff didn’t know). And no email/ SMS from ES.

A good atmosphere in the bar car, however, and nobody seemed to be complaining.

Next morning passengers were asking each other what to do at Innsbruck, and even whether they needed to buy a new ticket. Some didn’t even know we’d terminated.

Eventually got an SMS at 11am, telling us they’d arranged ticket acceptance on the Railjet to Verona at 1124, followed by Regional. From then, there seemed to be lots of ES staff handing out sandwiches etc.

We did indeed arrive at 1650.

I really want them to succeed, and I know how hard it is to get a show like this on the road, but as always it’s the lack of communication that frustrates! Especially since the problems with going into Italy seem to have been known about.