European Sleeper experience

[popeter45]

What newer sleepers? From who?

The basic problem is that in the late 90's all investment into night trains stopped and it was assume they would eventually die off, rendered obsolete by high speed services and low cost flights. Now the renaissance has come and even big players like ÖBB have to borrow, scrounge and run without proper reserves(they also have significant problems with missing sleeper coaches).
The only new builds for others are the Nightjets for ÖBB(inflexible, high lead time for any follow up orders, and existing stock probably retained for service expansion/spares/reserve) and some for domestic Italian services, perhaps some 2nd hand potential there but those carriages are also old and might have problems running internationally.
New builds for ES themselves would take years and probably only financially possible if a backer could be persuaded to buy them and lease them to ES.

Somewhere rotting away in Russia are several sets of very nice and modern 2012-built Siemens-built night train sets, gauge-change compatible and already approved for all countries between Russia and France. But good luck getting hold of them!

One option could be to convert a few couchettes into sleepers like OBBs project to convert a few compartment seated carriages into couchettes

Good candidates could be the 6 berth non AC couchettes ES are phasing out, adding AC during refurb work

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

The shortage applies to all night coaches, couchettes as well as sleepers.

Jon Worth says:

In short: there is some potential in re-building daytime carriages, but not enough to scale night trains to the extent Trains for Europe advocates.

Is there anything else that could be done other than procuring new trains? - Trains for Europe

Rather than ordering new trains, there are two other potential solutions: to lease night train stock that already exists and is not being used, or to convert daytime train stock into night time train stock, but neither option is really viable at scale. What night train stock is there […]

trainsforeurope.eu

 

[popeter45]

The shortage applies to all night coaches, couchettes as well as sleepers.

Jon Worth says:

Is there anything else that could be done other than procuring new trains? - Trains for Europe

Rather than ordering new trains, there are two other potential solutions: to lease night train stock that already exists and is not being used, or to convert daytime train stock into night time train stock, but neither option is really viable at scale. What night train stock is there […]

trainsforeurope.eu

For ES scale isn't that much of an issue, assuming 2 carriages each way plus 2 spare that's only 6 carriages needed, 10 if adding a second route permanently like the Venice route

could get away with only 3 if swapping like for like, single train as it is now with one spare

 

[ivanhoe]

Being an avid Interrailer, I’ve noticed a huge interest in taking sleepers. My advice is as follows:
Don’t have high expectations of your experience unless you’re using a couchette, by choice.
It is not the Orient Express, more like ‘Leyton Orient Express’
Research the current Sleeping Offers by finding out their reliability and Carriage availability.
Consider taking the daytime non sleeper routes.
For Travellers, consider whether you want to arrive early in a City, with an interrupted sleep experience and not being able to access accommodation until early afternoon.

In my opinion, taking a sleeper has become a bucket list item for many Interrail/Eurailers . There is a lack of suitable stock for the current offerings. Personally speaking the offering from SNCF Intercities de Nuit, is probably a model to use until the current operators can get new stock. That comes at a big cost, and means that cheap places will be minimal.

 

[nwales58]

Research the current Sleeping Offers by finding out their reliability and Carriage availability.

Especially if time saving is a main reason for using sleeper or couchette.

You have to have fallback plans for it being a) an hour or three late and b) cancelled.

 

[StephenHunter]

Being an avid Interrailer, I’ve noticed a huge interest in taking sleepers. My advice is as follows:
Don’t have high expectations of your experience unless you’re using a couchette, by choice.
It is not the Orient Express, more like ‘Leyton Orient Express’

The real CIWL experience was far more like European Sleeper than the VSOE for most travellers. They were "ordinary" trains with nice carriages.

 

[humbersidejim]

Whatever happened to the Renfe Trenhotel stock, which was running until Covid?

 

[nwales58]

Whatever happened to the Renfe Trenhotel stock, which was running until Covid?

They were swallowed into the Avril fiasco. S-106 = new build. S-107 = Talgo VII coaches rebuilt + new power cars. Avril coaches are wider than previous Talgos (2+3 seating) and wheelsets are 360 km/h instead of 220 so it sounds a major rebuild.

 

[duesselmartin]

They were swallowed into the Avril fiasco. S-106 = new build. S-107 = Talgo VII coaches rebuilt + new power cars. Avril coaches are wider than previous Talgos (2+3 seating) and wheelsets are 360 km/h instead of 220 so it sounds a major rebuild.

previously the DB Talgo night stock was also left to rott until the last one was vandalised to bits. In the end, night trains are still a niche product accounting for a small percentages of passengers and lots of compensation paid to passengers. Not an incentive to invest really.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They were swallowed into the Avril fiasco. S-106 = new build. S-107 = Talgo VII coaches rebuilt + new power cars. Avril coaches are wider than previous Talgos (2+3 seating) and wheelsets are 360 km/h instead of 220 so it sounds a major rebuild.

The S-107s were converted to high speed but weren't widened, so have a conventional 2+2 in 2nd and 2+1 in 1st.

 

[nwales58]

The S-107s were converted to high speed but weren't widened, so have a conventional 2+2 in 2nd and 2+1 in 1st.

Aha, I'd missed that. So Renfe have 15 fattie sets which might as well become AvLo 2+3 eventually once enough people are pissed off with 2+2 having paid for Elige XL, and they might get up to 15 decent ones depending on how much corrosion there was in the Trenhotel fleet.

 

[AdamWW]

previously the DB Talgo night stock was also left to rott until the last one was vandalised to bits. In the end, night trains are still a niche product accounting for a small percentages of passengers and lots of compensation paid to passengers. Not an incentive to invest really.

I suspect they would be a little less niche if there was more stock available, though.

I realise they aren't much use if you can't sleep on one, but for those who can and for the right length of journey they are effectively much faster than a plane because they take no time at all.

Incidentally I was at a business meeting in the Netherlands on Monday and one of the participants was going back to Switzerland on a sleeper because the meeting finished too late to comfortably get a plane home that evening. (And they were willing to sleep in a shared 4 person couchette too).

 

[danchester]

I see one sleeper car and two seats cars are back in the mix today, which is encouraging: https://www.europeansleeper.eu/train-composition

 

[danchester]

So the dining car is "taking a November break" while they review the pilot. Reasonable, though one might also look at the bond loan scheme they've issued to maintain short term liquidity, their reported lower-than-average autumn sales, and the failure so far to deliver a livery which was promised to come out of the last round of crowdfunding, and conclude that they're probably feeling a need to cut down on expenses a little too.

But...interesting that the other night they ran a special restaurant service with three Michelin-starred German chefs as part of a Visit Berlin-sponsored event. Seems like the invitees were largely social media influencers (who form a large part of ES's marketing strategy). Most interestingly, the dining car used is the one pictured in the original publicity ES used for their dining car service, not the one they've been using for regular services!

Also encouraging that both sleeper cars are set to run tonight, for the first time in what must be a very long time.

 

[mad_rich]

I'm not sure what is the value of inviting social media influencers to convey a special service which isn't available to the public?

At best it's irrelevant, at worst it will just least to disappointment when you get your microwaved curry (if available).

 

[MikeFromLFE]

In my opinion, taking a sleeper has become a bucket list item for many Interrail/Eurailers . There is a lack of suitable stock for the current offerings.

The enthusiasm for sleeper services seems particularlly prevalent among older Interrail (& potential Interrail) passengers. I suspect this is driven by some sort of nostalgia for their student days, or the journeys they wished they'd taken in their student days.
I wonder how many of this group actually take an overnight train journey, and how many just praise the idea?

I don't see that there would be sufficient stock for a third of the wannabe travellers!

 

[MattSGB]

I'm getting a really bad feeling about ES. I'm currently waiting for an "automatic refund" to cover my most recent downgrade. It was supposed to happen within four weeks. Now they say that there is a delay paying refunds and it will be another 4 weeks. It doesn't fill me with confidence.

 

[nwales58]

The enthusiasm for sleeper services seems particularlly prevalent among older Interrail (& potential Interrail) passengers. ...
I wonder how many of this group actually take an overnight train journey, and how many just praise the idea?

In demand forecasting there is always a gap, often massive, between those who respond positively in a survey and actual demand so that is not unusual.

However most old people (I am one) don't sleep well, like to have a toilet nearby during the night and so on. So most probably prefer a reasonable night's sleep in a hotel near a station, particulary as that is cheaper than a sleeper for two. Unless, say, it's one night outbound from home in northern Germany to spending a week in one place in Italy where you can recover.

 

[duesselmartin]

My issue with night trains if when they arrive in the early hours at the desired destination. While ES is fine for Praha, it is too early in Berlin .
It is also why the Caledonian sleeper to Aberdeen is not an option for me.

 

[AdamWW]

My issue with night trains if when they arrive in the early hours at the desired destination. While ES is fine for Praha, it is too early in Berlin .

I'm not keen on that either....but it didn't seem to prevent a large number of people from using the ES to Berlin when I caught it a few weeks ago.
Ideally of course it would leave some coaches there and let people have a bit longer in bed.
Completely impractical for various reasons, I know.

 

[MikeFromLFE]

I'm not keen on that either....but it didn't seem to prevent a large number of people from using the ES to Berlin when I caught it a few weeks ago.

One of the night train operators has a tie up with hotels at the destination allowing for breakfast, and hopefully a wash and brush up. This seems a good compromise.

 

[AdamWW]

One of the night train operators has a tie up with hotels at the destination allowing for breakfast, and hopefully a wash and brush up. This seems a good compromise.

Still nicer not to have to get up so early!

An early arrival doesn't prevent me from doing (and enjoying) a sleeper trip, but it's lovely to be able to have a bit of a lie in!

(Mind you, on my recent ES trip I could have had a very long lie in as we got in to Prague about 2 hours late.)

 

[StephenHunter]

I wonder how many of this group actually take an overnight train journey, and how many just praise the idea?

I've taken three so far. I'm thinking of a trip to Karlovy Vary at some point in the near future and ES may well feature in that, at least one way.

 

[RT4038]

I'm not keen on that either....but it didn't seem to prevent a large number of people from using the ES to Berlin when I caught it a few weeks ago.
Ideally of course it would leave some coaches there and let people have a bit longer in bed.
Completely impractical for various reasons, I know.

People in parts of continental Europe tend to get up one hour earlier than us, with work starting at 8 rather than our 9.

 

[danchester]

I too find ES's arrival in Berlin far too early, but for whatever reason it doesn't seem to stop people using the service. The return journey is a bit kinder at least.

The enthusiasm for sleeper services seems particularlly prevalent among older Interrail (& potential Interrail) passengers. I suspect this is driven by some sort of nostalgia for their student days, or the journeys they wished they'd taken in their student days.
I wonder how many of this group actually take an overnight train journey, and how many just praise the idea?

I don't see that there would be sufficient stock for a third of the wannabe travellers!

There's some of that, but some of the resurgence has also been driven by climate-conscious young people. And those who generally find it less unbearable/more romantic than flying. Presumably this is who ES's marketing is targeting.

 

[scragend]

The enthusiasm for sleeper services seems particularlly prevalent among older Interrail (& potential Interrail) passengers. I suspect this is driven by some sort of nostalgia for their student days, or the journeys they wished they'd taken in their student days.
I wonder how many of this group actually take an overnight train journey, and how many just praise the idea?

I don't see that there would be sufficient stock for a third of the wannabe travellers!

I haven't been on ES yet, but I did take the Snälltåget (in a couchette) from Malmo to Berlin last month. The first time I've been on a night train for over 20 years.

I have to admit the nostalgia was slightly better than the reality, but nonetheless I would do it again.

 

[Peter Wilde]

What a shame to read of some off-putting experiences.

To attract a mass market, especially older travellers, one needs some reassurance that (1) customer service and on-board facilities will meet some minimum standards, and (2) the experience will not be ruined by the bad behaviour of other people.

There is also (3) that departure and (importantly) arrival times will not be at unsocial hours. Surely it would not be too difficult in principle, as services expand, to arrange for sleeper trains to be either run more slowly, or stabled for a couple of hours en route or at destination, so that passengers can sleep/relax till say 8 am, at least?

The case for more sleeper services is firstly that the concept is greener; and secondly that their inevitably higher cost will be offset by saving a night in a hotel. The latter will only work if the on-train experience is pleasant and a reasonable nights sleep is possible.

 

[30907]

There is also (3) that departure and (importantly) arrival times will not be at unsocial hours. Surely it would not be too difficult in principle, as services expand, to arrange for sleeper trains to be either run more slowly, or stabled for a couple of hours en route or at destination, so that passengers can sleep/relax till say 8 am, at least?

The case for more sleeper services is firstly that the concept is greener; and secondly that their inevitably higher cost will be offset by saving a night in a hotel. The latter will only work if the on-train experience is pleasant and a reasonable nights sleep is possible.

Quite. But it is fairly rare for there to be a big enough destination to attract a trainload. Paris probably works (or would, if SNCF were geared up to sleepers), and Vienna or Rome.
But a train to Rome goes through Florence, which is a significant tourist/business destination. And much of Europe has similar medium-sized rather than London-sized cities.
Similarly, European Sleeper starts in relatively urban Benelux and heads for Prague, via Berlin and Dresden - three key locations, each 2hr from the next. What is the compromise solution, bearing in mind that the train needs to be cleaned and serviced before it returns? (NB - there is also a Brussels-Berlin Nightjet.)

 

[philg999]

Quite. But it is fairly rare for there to be a big enough destination to attract a trainload. Paris probably works (or would, if SNCF were geared up to sleepers), and Vienna or Rome.
But a train to Rome goes through Florence, which is a significant tourist/business destination. And much of Europe has similar medium-sized rather than London-sized cities.
Similarly, European Sleeper starts in relatively urban Benelux and heads for Prague, via Berlin and Dresden - three key locations, each 2hr from the next. What is the compromise solution, bearing in mind that the train needs to be cleaned and serviced before it returns? (NB - there is also a Brussels-Berlin Nightjet.)

One solution is you can split the consist en route and take a smaller number onto the final destination(s). The left behind coaches can sit in a platform until 7am or so. This becomes too operationally difficult and expensive for an open access operator though as you need multiple stabling locations, shunts and (de)couplings, plus you have a big problem if some coaches break along the way.

 

[danchester]

So the dining car is "taking a November break" while they review the pilot. Reasonable, though one might also look at the bond loan scheme they've issued to maintain short term liquidity, their reported lower-than-average autumn sales, and the failure so far to deliver a livery which was promised to come out of the last round of crowdfunding, and conclude that they're probably feeling a need to cut down on expenses a little too.

They've just announced the dining car will be back between 17 Dec and 5 Jan, so that's encouraging.