Eurostar’s shrinking ambitions

[williamn]

Interesting / depressing article in the Guardian today.

Adieu Mickey Mouse: Eurostar’s shrinking ambitions seven years on from the Brexit vote

When the Channel Tunnel first opened there were visions of seamless pan-European travel from the UK. Now the Disneyland Paris route has been axed and the Amsterdam route delayed, what went wrong?

www.theguardian.com

Plus this, which seems ill informed, given that capacity restrictions due to Brexit, track access charges and tunnel access charges are what are keeping fares (relatively) high.

Eurostar could face competition to drive down fares, government says

Rail minister says government is ‘working on’ bringing competition to channel tunnel

www.independent.co.uk

 

[AdamWW]

Interesting / depressing article in the Guardian today.

Adieu Mickey Mouse: Eurostar’s shrinking ambitions seven years on from the Brexit vote

When the Channel Tunnel first opened there were visions of seamless pan-European travel from the UK. Now the Disneyland Paris route has been axed and the Amsterdam route delayed, what went wrong?

www.theguardian.com

Plus this, which seems ill informed, given that capacity restrictions due to Brexit, track access charges and tunnel access charges are what are keeping fares (relatively) high.

Eurostar could face competition to drive down fares, government says

Rail minister says government is ‘working on’ bringing competition to channel tunnel

www.independent.co.uk

Eurostar don't seem to have difficulty selling out trains (subject to capacity constraints) at current prices.

If access charges were reduced I don't see why they would lower prices rather than just take higher profits.

The article seemed to be implying that the capacity in Amsterdam was limited by Brexit related border control. Is that really the case? I thought it was due to the size of the lounge. If the limit was time to stamp passports they could just make the check-in time a bit earlier, I would have thought.

It's not like in St Pancras where you have to get one trainload of passengers through before the next one arrives.

 

[nlogax]

The article seemed to be implying that the capacity in Amsterdam was limited by Brexit related border control. Is that really the case?

I've been under the impression that Brexit-related capacity constraints with ES are at the London end.

 

[duncanp]

Worth noting that the direct service from Amsterdam to London was introduced on 26th October 2020, which was after Brexit.

In any case, border controls for Eurostar trains towards the UK are necessary because the UK is not in the Schengen area whereas France, Belgium and the Netherlands are, and would still be the case if the UK was an EU member state today.

Similarly the security requirements for Eurostar have nothing to do with whether the UK is an EU member state.

The main reason for the service reductions is undoubtedly COVID. At the height of all the restrictions, Eurostar traffic was less than 5% of pre COVID levels, and it made sense to suspend service to destinations other than Paris, Lille and Brussels.

The cost of living crisis, which is by no means unique to the UK, is another reason why traffic levels are not yet up to pre COVID levels.

 

[StephenHunter]

ETIAS, which will eliminate most passport stamping, should help.

 

[williamn]

Worth noting that the direct service from Amsterdam to London was introduced on 26th October 2020, which was after Brexit.

In any case, border controls for Eurostar trains towards the UK are necessary because the UK is not in the Schengen area whereas France, Belgium and the Netherlands are, and would still be the case if the UK was an EU member state today.

Similarly the security requirements for Eurostar have nothing to do with whether the UK is an EU member state.

The main reason for the service reductions is undoubtedly COVID. At the height of all the restrictions, Eurostar traffic was less than 5% of pre COVID levels, and it made sense to suspend service to destinations other than Paris, Lille and Brussels.

The cost of living crisis, which is by no means unique to the UK, is another reason why traffic levels are not yet up to pre COVID levels.

Eurostar is deliberately leaving seats unsold because it can't process all the passengers through immigration with the increased border formalities, so Brexit is definitely a major contributor to the companies problems.

 

[miami]

In any case, border controls for Eurostar trains towards the UK are necessary because the UK is not in the Schengen area whereas France, Belgium and the Netherlands are, and would still be the case if the UK was an EU member state today.

Taking a lot longer to process me through Schengen border controls than it did when the UK was in the EU.

Last time I eurostarred from Paris, back in 2022, I timed the speed of the e-gates. Assuming all were in operation (as they were) they could process about 600 people per hour. You can't run a 900 seat train every hour with that, no matter how early you arrive.

 

[30907]

Eurostar is deliberately leaving seats unsold because it can't process all the passengers through immigration with the increased border formalities, so Brexit is definitely a major contributor to the companies problems.

That applies mainly to early morning trains. Looking at some busy days they are advertising 2 departures an hour at peak times (admittedly only 50% of their theoretical paths).

The Disney service makes/made very poor use of resources with its long layover in France.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Worth noting that the direct service from Amsterdam to London was introduced on 26th October 2020, which was after Brexit.
In any case, border controls for Eurostar trains towards the UK are necessary because the UK is not in the Schengen area whereas France, Belgium and the Netherlands are, and would still be the case if the UK was an EU member state today.
Similarly the security requirements for Eurostar have nothing to do with whether the UK is an EU member state.
The main reason for the service reductions is undoubtedly COVID. At the height of all the restrictions, Eurostar traffic was less than 5% of pre COVID levels, and it made sense to suspend service to destinations other than Paris, Lille and Brussels.
The cost of living crisis, which is by no means unique to the UK, is another reason why traffic levels are not yet up to pre COVID levels.

But passport stamping to check visa-free status, and the associated delays, is entirely due to Brexit.
EES, and ETIAS, are also due to Brexit (neither would be necessary if we were still in the EU).

 

[johncrossley]

In any case, border controls for Eurostar trains towards the UK are necessary because the UK is not in the Schengen area whereas France, Belgium and the Netherlands are, and would still be the case if the UK was an EU member state today.

However, when Eurostar started passport control was on the train, like it is at most other international border crossings where passport checks are required. Yes, I know the reasons why that had to end, but passport control before boarding wasn't envisaged when the tunnel opened.

 

[zwk500]

In any case, border controls for Eurostar trains towards the UK are necessary because the UK is not in the Schengen area whereas France, Belgium and the Netherlands are, and would still be the case if the UK was an EU member state today.

But far less stringent checks are required for EU-EU travel than Not EU-EU

Similarly the security requirements for Eurostar have nothing to do with whether the UK is an EU member state.

True

The main reason for the service reductions is undoubtedly COVID. At the height of all the restrictions, Eurostar traffic was less than 5% of pre COVID levels, and it made sense to suspend service to destinations other than Paris, Lille and Brussels.

COVID is the reason demand fell. But Brexit *IS* having an impact on recovery.

The cost of living crisis, which is by no means unique to the UK, is another reason why traffic levels are not yet up to pre COVID levels.

Mildly exacerbated by Brexit, of course, but yes true.

 

[Re 4/4]

ETIAS, are also due to Brexit

Is that true? I thought it was for entry to the Schengen area, which we weren't part of even when we were in the EU.

 

[zwk500]

Is that true? I thought it was for entry to the Schengen area, which we weren't part of even when we were in the EU.

If we were still in the EU, we would have freedom of movement to the EU regardless of Schengen and therefore no need for the visa waiver system. A physical check of the Identity document would still take place, but there would be no need to record the arrival and departure dates.

 

[yorksrob]

During pre-Brextt travel to the continent, I always remember having to show my passport to the man in the booth. Does it really take that much longer to stamp it ?

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Yes.

 

[zwk500]

During pre-Brextt travel to the continent, I always remember having to show my passport to the man in the booth. Does it really take that much longer to stamp it ?

Yes, because (s)he has to check that you've not been to the EU for more than 90 of the previous 180 days. Which he can only do by checking there's no other stamps, or adding together the dates on the stamps that are there. I believe there are also additional security checks that the UK cannot streamline because they are not allowed access to the systems as a non-member, but am open to correction on that.

IIRC Dover said it's between 5 and 10 seconds extra per UK passport, which on a 900-seat train from London is an appreciable amount of extra time to process people.

 

[urbophile]

Worth noting that the direct service from Amsterdam to London was introduced on 26th October 2020, which was after Brexit.

In any case, border controls for Eurostar trains towards the UK are necessary because the UK is not in the Schengen area whereas France, Belgium and the Netherlands are, and would still be the case if the UK was an EU member state today.

But if (and agreed it's a very big if) the UK were to rejoin the EU, wouldn't being part of Schengen (and the Eurozone) be mandatory?

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, because (s)he has to check that you've not been to the EU for more than 90 of the previous 180 days. Which he can only do by checking there's no other stamps, or adding together the dates on the stamps that are there. I believe there are also additional security checks that the UK cannot streamline because they are not allowed access to the systems as a non-member, but am open to correction on that.

IIRC Dover said it's between 5 and 10 seconds extra per UK passport, which on a 900-seat train from London is an appreciable amount of extra time to process people.

That only kicks in if you've been in the EU in the last six months. If your last stamp was Mongolia two years ago, you're through.

Practically though, I wonder whether a solution might be to check the passports on the trains.

Alternatively, as with Le Shuttle, could we grant the French Republic a little bit of St Pancras to check the passports on their own territory beforehand ?

 

[ThameslinkUser]

That only kicks in if you've been in the EU in the last six months.

And how do they know that without checking and thus spending the additional time regardless?

 

[yorksrob]

And how do they know that without checking and thus spending the additional time regardless?

There won't be an EU country stamp.

 

[zwk500]

But if (and agreed it's a very big if) the UK were to rejoin the EU, wouldn't being part of Schengen (and the Eurozone) be mandatory?

Depends on whether or not we resecure the opt-outs. Schengen would have a clear case for the Opt-Out as the CTA with Ireland is a separate agreement and Ireland itself has an opt-out of Schengen. The EU might be keener on insisting on the Eurozone, although it would be in it's own economic interest to give the UK the opt-out for the GBP (not least because politically any commitment to the Eurozone would sink any bid to rejoin), although the UK could follow Sweden's lead and simply manage the conditions such that they never fall within the convergence criteria.

That only kicks in if you've been in the EU in the last six months. If your last stamp was Mongolia two years ago, you're through.

The border guard still has to check each page to verify if the stamps are there, where they are from and if they are relevant. Obviously if there are no stamps it's a quicker check, but it's still longer than no check at all.

Practically though, I wonder whether a solution might be to check the passports on the trains.

The home office would not permit it. There is a risk (however small) of a person without authority to enter the UK boarding the train and then using the loo at an opportune time, or pulling the emergency stop and legging it across a field.

There won't be an EU country stamp.

So they still need to open every page of the passport to verify there is no stamp.

 

[yorksrob]

Depends on whether or not we resecure the opt-outs. Schengen would have a clear case for the Opt-Out as the CTA with Ireland is a separate agreement and Ireland itself has an opt-out of Schengen. The EU might be keener on insisting on the Eurozone, although it would be in it's own economic interest to give the UK the opt-out for the GBP (not least because politically any commitment to the Eurozone would sink any bid to rejoin), although the UK could follow Sweden's lead and simply manage the conditions such that they never fall within the convergence criteria.

The border guard still has to check each page to verify if the stamps are there, where they are from and if they are relevant. Obviously if there are no stamps it's a quicker check, but it's still longer than no check at all.

The home office would not permit it. There is a risk (however small) of a person without authority to enter the UK boarding the train and then using the loo at an opportune time, or pulling the emergency stop and legging it across a field.


So they still need to open every page of the passport to verify there is no stamp.

Yes, I suppose that is a risk, although whether there is a workaround (having someone outside the loo while the carriage is checked) or an acceptable level of risk (yes, someone could pull the chord and leg it, but the local police could be called) I don't know.

But I agree that there are likely to be no opt-outs on re-joining. The populace would have to be committed to ever closer union.

 

[zwk500]

Yes, I suppose that is a risk, although whether there is a workaround (having someone outside the loo while the carriage is checked) or an acceptable level of risk (yes, someone could pull the chord and leg it, but the local police could be called) I don't know.

The Home Office have given every possible indication of 'no'. Look at the fuss with the Brussels-Lille flow.

But I agree that there are likely to be no opt-outs on re-joining. The populace would have to be committed to ever closer union.

I disagree, both optouts are actually in the EU's interest. However rejoining is a long way in the future if it ever happens and so we cannot know.

 

[yorksrob]

The Home Office have given every possible indication of 'no'. Look at the fuss with the Brussels-Lille flow.

I disagree, both optouts are actually in the EU's interest. However rejoining is a long way in the future if it ever happens and so we cannot know.

Ah, well, the Home Office will do whatever its overlords in the Governing party tell it ! The Governing party is the issue !

With regard to opt-outs if I were the EU I'd probably say like it or lump it, but you never know.

 

[joncombe]

The border guard still has to check each page to verify if the stamps are there, where they are from and if they are relevant. Obviously if there are no stamps it's a quicker check, but it's still longer than no check at all.

Really? Is that just for trains on anywhere? Since this stamping started for UK passport holders the vast majority of border staff in differing countries swipe my passport, check the photo then flip through to find an empty spot to put the stamp. A few have glanced at other stamps but never gone through them in detail. So is this something they are supposed to always do or just something they can choose to do? Because my experience is this doesn't happen.

 

[zwk500]

Really? Is that just for trains on anywhere? Since this stamping started for UK passport holders the vast majority of border staff in differing countries swipe my passport, check the photo then flip through to find an empty spot to put the stamp. A few have glanced at other stamps but never gone through them in detail. So is this something they are supposed to always do or just something they can choose to do? Because my experience is this doesn't happen.

Something they're supposed to do. I imagine most are just checking for an exit stamp on the previous journey. I can't say what my experience is, because I hold both UK and EU passports and therefore don't get stamped either way.

Ah, well, the Home Office will do whatever its overlords in the Governing party tell it ! The Governing party is the issue !

Very much so - the Home Office implements their policies (which, noting Eurostar have been operating since 1992 and have therefore had several combinations of governing parties setting policy, has been quite consistent - for reasons why see the recent Question Time)

With regard to opt-outs if I were the EU I'd probably say like it or lump it, but you never know.

You never know. It'll be a long way off (at least 2 political generations) either way, so who knows what the EU will look like then.

Ah, well, the Home Office will do whatever its overlords in the Governing party tell it ! The Governing party is the issue !

Very much so - the Home Office implements their policies (which, noting Eurostar have been operating since 1992 and have therefore had several combinations of governing parties setting policy, has been quite consistent - for reasons why see the recent Question Time)

With regard to opt-outs if I were the EU I'd probably say like it or lump it, but you never know.

You never know. It'll be a long way off (at least 2 political generations) either way, so who knows what the EU will look like then.

 

[yorksrob]

I remember going through passport control and being annoyed that they didn't stamp my passport (just to show that I'd been there), but I realise that there are more important arguments to this than having a stamp on a page

 

[urpert]

That only kicks in if you've been in the EU in the last six months. If your last stamp was Mongolia two years ago, you're through.

Practically though, I wonder whether a solution might be to check the passports on the trains.

Alternatively, as with Le Shuttle, could we grant the French Republic a little bit of St Pancras to check the passports on their own territory beforehand ?

This is already the case (there are combined UK and France passport checks before boarding in London, as there are at Folkestone and Dover).

 

[yorksrob]

This is already the case (there are combined UK and France passport checks before boarding in London, as there are at Folkestone and Dover).

That's as it should be. Surely it must save some time !

 

[Cloud Strife]

However, when Eurostar started passport control was on the train, like it is at most other international border crossings where passport checks are required. Yes, I know the reasons why that had to end, but passport control before boarding wasn't envisaged when the tunnel opened.

Yes, the original plan was for passport checks onboard, and there was no need for customs on arrival as they had been abolished on the 1st January 1993.

Is that true? I thought it was for entry to the Schengen area, which we weren't part of even when we were in the EU.

Yes, EITAS won't apply to EU/EEA/CH/Microstate citizens. It is connected to Schengen, but citizens of those countries won't have to deal with it.

A few have glanced at other stamps but never gone through them in detail. So is this something they are supposed to always do or just something they can choose to do? Because my experience is this doesn't happen.

There is a degree of subjectivity involved. While they should check, Schengen countries have never been that bothered about enforcing the 90/180 limit for tourists from wealthy countries.

Alternatively, as with Le Shuttle, could we grant the French Republic a little bit of St Pancras to check the passports on their own territory beforehand ?

It already is the case: the juxtaposed controls operate in quite a few places.

The problem is that it simply takes time to process people through border controls, even with e-gates. One sensible option could be to operate the Schengen controls jointly with the UK, so it's a single e-gate for both exit and entry purposes.