Eurostar’s shrinking ambitions

[zwk500]

This is already the case (there are combined UK and France passport checks before boarding in London, as there are at Folkestone and Dover).

That's as it should be. Surely it must save some time !

Juxtaposed controls have been in for ages. St Pancras (Ebbsfleet and Ashford as well, theoretically), Dover and Cheriton on the UK Side while Brussels Midi, Paris North, Lille Europe (Calais-Frethun theory), Calais and IIRC Dunkirk. It saves time at the other end as you can drive straight off, but it doesn't avoid the need for the checks in the first place.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Brussels Midi, Paris North, Lille Europe (Calais-Frethun theory), Calais and IIRC Dunkirk.

Amsterdam and Rotterdam too, no? And there are the seasonal ones for the ski trains too, plus Marne-la-Vallee.

Having said that, looking at some videos on YouTube, it's clear that the controls are taking longer than they did before Brexit. Calais (the ferry port) in particular seems to be really taking a day and an age to process people.

 

[zwk500]

Amsterdam and Rotterdam too, no? And there are the seasonal ones for the ski trains too, plus Marne-la-Vallee.

Yes, sorry forgot them, full list on Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juxtaposed_controls

 

[duesselmartin]

Interestingly the UK does not stamp my German passport. Why is that?

 

[Cloud Strife]

Interestingly the UK does not stamp my German passport. Why is that?

The UK moved to digital stamps recently. I don't remember the exact year, but they no longer stamp people making tourist visits to the UK. They still do for other kinds of visitors, but not tourists.

 

[zwk500]

Interestingly the UK does not stamp my German passport. Why is that?

AIUI the UK chooses not to stamp to expedite the processing of arrivals. Open to correction on that though, because I have both EU and UK passports so don't get stamped.

 

[Cloud Strife]

AIUI the UK chooses not to stamp to expedite the processing of arrivals. Open to correction on that though, because I have both EU and UK passports so don't get stamped.

Yep, it's in connection with the move to e-gates and the future ETA system. The idea is that in the nearish future, they'll be able to deny boarding to people at the port of departure, so if someone sets off a red flag for whatever reason, they won't even get to come to the UK.

 

[zwk500]

Yep, it's in connection with the move to e-gates and the future ETA system. The idea is that in the nearish future, they'll be able to deny boarding to people at the port of departure, so if someone sets off a red flag for whatever reason, they won't even get to come to the UK.

Tbh now with technology and systems as they are that should be the global standard, diplomatic problems notwithstanding.

 

[KGX]

Competition is badly needed on this route. Should be a priority.

 

[zwk500]

Competition is badly needed on this route. Should be a priority.

Easyjet do a fairly brisk trade to Paris and Amsterdam, and anybody's open to apply to HS1 for access. Perhaps there's a reason nobody has so far?

 

[KGX]

Easyjet do a fairly brisk trade to Paris and Amsterdam, and anybody's open to apply to HS1 for access. Perhaps there's a reason nobody has so far?

The tunnel should not be the preserve of the wealthy transiting between SPX and Paris, whilst the poor go by low cost airline.

Eurostar have publicy stated their strategy is to focus on driving high-yield from a limited customer and service base; to focus on core routes which make the maximum contribution per train and to charge higher prices to our customers.

I appreciate they are loaded with debt since covid, but this is not a sustainable position for Govs to allow in light of green agenda, nor allow monopolistic behaviour. Even Getlink have been talking about purchasing rolling stock to bring in comp.

Given their behaviour of late, I'd say it's just a matter of time.

 

[rg177]

As for stamping - my experience from Eurostar terminals is that they really aren't bothered. It's usually flick flick flick, stamp, hand back - all of ten seconds. In theory though, it could take a lot longer if it was done 'properly'.

Poland, Latvia and Lithuania are the only countries where I've suffered fairly extreme delays due to obsessive checking of stamps which in my passport are all over the shop due to some countries whacking stamps on top of each other or on random pages. I think 15 minutes is my record trying to leave Lithuania.

 

[urbophile]

The UK moved to digital stamps recently. I don't remember the exact year, but they no longer stamp people making tourist visits to the UK. They still do for other kinds of visitors, but not tourists.

how do they know which is which without asking? I've never been asked if I was a tourist. (Ive just thought, this comment applies to non-UK citizens enteirng Britain. But you'd have thought French/Belgian authorities would want to ask UK visitors the same question.)

 

[zwk500]

The tunnel should not be the preserve of the wealthy transiting between SPX and Paris, whilst the poor go by low cost airline.

You can get £40 tickets on Eurostar. Why should a company not ask passengers to pay what the market will bear? And why should Eurostar be subsidised to be available to people who don't want to pay their fares when the alternative options exist? Subsidising jolly booze cruises doesn't sound like a good use of public money to me when rural branch lines are under threat that people use to get to jobs.

Eurostar have publicy stated their strategy is to focus on driving high-yield from a limited customer and service base; to focus on core routes which make the maximum contribution per train and to charge higher prices to our customers.

Sensible business policy for a company staring at very large red numbers.

I appreciate they are loaded with debt since covid, but this is not a sustainable position for Govs to allow in light of green agenda, nor allow monopolistic behaviour. Even Getlink have been talking about purchasing rolling stock to bring in comp.

The government really doesn't give a fig about the green agenda, I'm sorry to say. And Eurostar don't have a monopoly. Anybody is able to apply for rights to operate on HS1. It's been a commercial decision so far that nobody else has yet done so.

Given their behaviour of late, I'd say it's just a matter of time.

Who's behaviour, and until what?

 

[KGX]

You can get £40 tickets on Eurostar. Why should a company not ask passengers to pay what the market will bear? And why should Eurostar be subsidised to be available to people who don't want to pay their fares when the alternative options exist? Subsidising jolly booze cruises doesn't sound like a good use of public money to me when rural branch lines are under threat that people use to get to jobs.

Who's talking about subsidies? The talk is of facilitating competition.

Sensible business policy for a company staring at very large red numbers.

Yes, and more reason to facilitate competition.

The government really doesn't give a fig about the green agenda, I'm sorry to say. And Eurostar don't have a monopoly. Anybody is able to apply for rights to operate on HS1. It's been a commercial decision so far that nobody else has yet done so.

It has a monopoly on passenger train services. Competition will require gov intervention. As in many markets.

Who's behaviour, and until what?

Eurostar. Competition.

 

[zwk500]

Who's talking about subsidies? The talk is of facilitating competition.

Why would a competitor not go after the same market? If the market will pay the fares, they'll undercut them by just enough but won't be offering Easyjet or Ryanair level prices.

Yes, and more reason to facilitate competition.

Again, there is nothing stopping anybody from applying for access yet nobody has chosen to do so on their own terms. So the only way to facilitate further competition would be to provide direct support to a competitor. Now why would the (any) government pay somebody to compete against Eurostar when there's Ryanair, Easy Jet, BA, etc all competing on price on their own?

It's worth pointing out that it is in HS1's benefit to have additional operators, so it can spread it's overheads over more track access fees, and have increased footfall through it's stations. Although the owners of HS1 Ltd being part owners of Eurostar doesn't help that, but then who made the decision to sell both at the same time? Oh yes, the government (Cameron and Osborne, specifically, sold the UK Government shares in both HS1 and E* to a Canadian Pension Fund).

I'm all for competition, I'd love DB to open a competing London-Cologne route, as they came extremely close to doing, but I am just pointing out it's already freely available, and the reasons it hasn't happened are nothing to do with monopolistic practices by E* but to do with the fundamental economics of the Border situation and long-distance train travel.

 

[KGX]

and the reasons it hasn't happened are nothing to do with monopolistic practices by E* but to do with the fundamental economics of the Border situation and long-distance train travel.

You don't say.
I'm not saying there's no competition because of monopolistic practises by Eurostar....I'm saying Eurostar behaves monopolistic because of the lack of....
It seems that we agree that competition would require Gov intervention to address the barriers. Good good.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

all of ten seconds

10 seconds is a huge amount of additional time in terms of throughput on the level at which Eurostar is operating.

 

[JonathanH]

Rail minister says government is ‘working on’ bringing competition to channel tunnel

It has a monopoly on passenger train services. Competition will require gov intervention. As in many markets.

Short of paying someone else to run services, which isn't going to happen, what intervention are you thinking of?

 

[williamn]

And competition won't drive down prices. I think I'm right in saying that the charge per passenger levied by the channel tunnel is around £30. So it'll never get lower than that, plus there are the huge track access charges on HS1. The government talks green but then sells off infrastructure, whose new owners unsurprisingly want to extract the maximum profit rather than use it for the public good.

 

[Cloud Strife]

how do they know which is which without asking? I've never been asked if I was a tourist. (Ive just thought, this comment applies to non-UK citizens enteirng Britain. But you'd have thought French/Belgian authorities would want to ask UK visitors the same question.)

At least in the UK, you're supposed to inform them if you want to enter for a reason that isn't covered by the standard UK visa waiver. The UK rules are really a complicated mess compared to Schengen, to the point where I couldn't even get a straight answer from UK Border Force as to whether my wife needed a visa to sit a professional exam.

https://www.gov.uk/permitted-paid-engagement-visitor - this is one of the examples where you're supposed to go to the manual passport control and declare that you intend to carry out this activity, and the stamp in your passport effectively permits you to do it.

Tbh now with technology and systems as they are that should be the global standard, diplomatic problems notwithstanding.

Agreed, it really should be.

Poland, Latvia and Lithuania are the only countries where I've suffered fairly extreme delays due to obsessive checking of stamps which in my passport are all over the shop due to some countries whacking stamps on top of each other or on random pages. I think 15 minutes is my record trying to leave Lithuania.

Yeah, the 'new' Schengen countries take it far more seriously than the old ones. Ukraine and Belarus are the only two countries that really seem to care about putting stamps in a reasonable and sensible way in passports.

 

[HSTEd]

You don't say.
I'm not saying there's no competition because of monopolistic practises by Eurostar....I'm saying Eurostar behaves monopolistic because of the lack of....
It seems that we agree that competition would require Gov intervention to address the barriers. Good good.

The primary barrier would be awful economics.

I'm not sure why the taxpayer should provides lots of money to a privately owned operator on de-facto private infrastructure when it doesn't even provide rail services between UK destinations.

If we're pumping subsidies into HS1 operations I would much rather spend them on expanding Southeastern high speed provision than Eurostar.

 

[railfan99]

So they still need to open every page of the passport to verify there is no stamp.

Wouldn't these border staff have pretty much instant access to an electronic record of that by passport number?

Granted, depending on which country, one has to renew passports every decade, or five years, but wouldn't such records generally make procedures a bit quicker?

The primary barrier would be awful economics.

I'm not sure why the taxpayer should provides lots of money to a privately owned operator on de-facto private infrastructure when it doesn't even provide rail services between UK destinations.

But as a taxpayer, you benefit from tourists or business travellers entering the UK by Eurostar. We spend money on hotels, at cafes, restaurants and pubs, on visiting attractions such as West Somerset Railway, and on internal UK travel.

 

[zwk500]

Wouldn't these border staff have pretty much instant access to an electronic record of that by passport number?

Don't believe so, although it will be in future.

 

[Sm5]

I wouldnt be surprised to see Eurostar curtailed to just Lille and Paris myself.

This way the quarantining of British passengers can be concentrated on one connecting hub at Lille, and those going direct to/from Paris.

If it was done cleverly, Both British and French passports done in Lille could mean a Lille to London, stopping in Ashford, Ebbsfleet and Stratford again as a domestic stop.
outbound Passengers from the UK for destinations complete immigration for France on arrival in Lille, and connect to an onward destination.

Meanwhile Paris - London becomes a nonstop express.

It cuts out all the formalities at Amsterdam, Rotterdam and Brussels, releases the platforms at Brussels for domestic use and frees the Eurostar paths from Lille northbound for better EU Thalys services.
it means only 3 immigration controls (London, Paris and Lille) all managed by Uk and France only.
it reduces the risk of delayed services, and as lille - london is more of a shuttle they can fill to higher capacity and let passengers catch later ones with less risk in event of customs delays.

much less complicated.


(whilst we bemoan ebbsfleet and ashford, dont forget Calais is also a white elephant for Eurostar).

 

[zwk500]

I wouldnt be surprised to see Eurostar curtailed to just Lille and Paris myself.

This way the quarantining of British passengers can be concentrated on one connecting hub at Lille, and those going direct to/from Paris.

If it was done cleverly, Both British and French passports done in Lille could mean a Lille to London, stopping in Ashford, Ebbsfleet and Stratford again as a domestic stop.
outbound Passengers from the UK for destinations complete immigration for France on arrival in Lille, and connect to an onward destination.

Meanwhile Paris - London becomes a nonstop express.

It cuts out all the formalities at Amsterdam, Rotterdam and Brussels, releases the platforms at Brussels for domestic use and frees the Eurostar paths from Lille northbound for better EU Thalys services.
it means only 3 immigration controls (London, Paris and Lille) all managed by Uk and France only.
it reduces the risk of delayed services, and as lille - london is more of a shuttle they can fill to higher capacity and let passengers catch later ones with less risk in event of customs delays.

much less complicated.


(whilst we bemoan ebbsfleet and ashford, dont forget Calais is also a white elephant for Eurostar).

Eurostar are fighting very hard (as are thr dutch) to maintain the Amsterdam services during the ongoing engineering works, and Brussels runs 1tp2h full for the entire day, it's very viable as an interchange for western Germany. I don't see Brussels being withdrawn any time soon. The bays at Brussels aren't much use for domestic services and the security for the Dutch extensions is designed to be flippable (the Dutch Royal train also used it last week to save a flight from Amsterdam to Brussels) so you don't save much while Brussels has the space for a full trainload and Lille is much less convenient from Germany/Belgium.

 

[philg999]

Eurostar are fighting very hard (as are thr dutch) to maintain the Amsterdam services during the ongoing engineering works, and Brussels runs 1tp2h full for the entire day, it's very viable as an interchange for western Germany. I don't see Brussels being withdrawn any time soon. The bays at Brussels aren't much use for domestic services and the security for the Dutch extensions is designed to be flippable (the Dutch Royal train also used it last week to save a flight from Amsterdam to Brussels) so you don't save much while Brussels has the space for a full trainload and Lille is much less convenient from Germany/Belgium.

Brussels is the hub of the new combined Thalys+Eurostar operation => they will not be cancelling the London-Brussels service.

 

[XAM2175]

The UK moved to digital stamps recently. I don't remember the exact year, but they no longer stamp people making tourist visits to the UK. They still do for other kinds of visitors, but not tourists.

Routine entry stamping by the UK stopped sometime between December 2018 and June 2019. I forget the exact date and a cursory Google search is obviously just full of ETIAS-related news.

how do they know which is which without asking? I've never been asked if I was a tourist. (Ive just thought, this comment applies to non-UK citizens enteirng Britain. But you'd have thought French/Belgian authorities would want to ask UK visitors the same question.)

To expand on Cloud Strife's answer; if you use an e-gate you won't get a stamp. Persons requiring a stamp on entry must use the staffed desks, where the officer will determine whether or not one should be provided.

 

[Chester1]

Is that true? I thought it was for entry to the Schengen area, which we weren't part of even when we were in the EU.

If we were still in the EU, we would have freedom of movement to the EU regardless of Schengen and therefore no need for the visa waiver system. A physical check of the Identity document would still take place, but there would be no need to record the arrival and departure dates.

One factor that gets over looked is non British, non EU/EEA travellers. While ETIAS will cause problems when people first travel on it when it is rolled out and with each new passport, afterwards it will make things quicker for citizens of third countries that don't require visas for Schengen. This will be true of UK ETA. Once both EU and UK have visa waivers an American or Japanese tourist visiting Paris and London won't need their passport stamping entering or leaving either. The launch of both will cause disruption but afterwards the net effect is positive vs status quo or pre brexit (although slightly slower than if we had stayed in EU and also launched UK ETA).

Depends on whether or not we resecure the opt-outs. Schengen would have a clear case for the Opt-Out as the CTA with Ireland is a separate agreement and Ireland itself has an opt-out of Schengen. The EU might be keener on insisting on the Eurozone, although it would be in it's own economic interest to give the UK the opt-out for the GBP (not least because politically any commitment to the Eurozone would sink any bid to rejoin), although the UK could follow Sweden's lead and simply manage the conditions such that they never fall within the convergence criteria.

The border guard still has to check each page to verify if the stamps are there, where they are from and if they are relevant. Obviously if there are no stamps it's a quicker check, but it's still longer than no check at all.

The home office would not permit it. There is a risk (however small) of a person without authority to enter the UK boarding the train and then using the loo at an opportune time, or pulling the emergency stop and legging it across a field.


So they still need to open every page of the passport to verify there is no stamp.

The Home Office have given every possible indication of 'no'. Look at the fuss with the Brussels-Lille flow.

I disagree, both optouts are actually in the EU's interest. However rejoining is a long way in the future if it ever happens and so we cannot know.

I have been told by multiple EU citizens living outside the UK that getting opt outs is a fantasy. I agree, while logically it would be mutually beneficial the politics of it at the EU end are not viable. Twelve members were forced to accept eventual Euro and Schengen membership as a requirement to join EU and there is a popular view that the opt outs fueled British exceptionalism. The Euro and schengen are at the heart of the EU for many EU governments and citizens. I think we would need to accept both to show that we where committed to being fully involved in the EU and not be the awkward member again. Ireland needed an opt out to avoid passport controls on the island of Ireland because the UK refused to join schengen. If the UK rejoined the EU then the expectation would be both the UK and Ireland would join Schengen. Ireland relied heavily on EU solidarity during brexit and it would significantly undermine its reputation and trust if it prevented the EU imposing the normal membership criteria on the UK.

 

[zwk500]

One factor that gets over looked is non British, non EU/EEA travellers. While ETIAS will cause problems when people first travel on it when it is rolled out and with each new passport, afterwards it will make things quicker for citizens of third countries that don't require visas for Schengen. This will be true of UK ETA. Once both EU and UK have visa waivers an American or Japanese tourist visiting Paris and London won't need their passport stamping entering or leaving either. The launch of both will cause disruption but afterwards the net effect is positive vs status quo or pre brexit (although slightly slower than if we had stayed in EU and also launched UK ETA).

Americans are certainly a fairly sizeable portion of travellers and this is a good point.

I have been told by multiple EU citizens living outside the UK that getting opt outs is a fantasy. I agree, while logically it would be mutually beneficial the politics of it at the EU end are not viable. Twelve members were forced to accept eventual Euro and Schengen membership as a requirement to join EU and there is a popular view that the opt outs fueled British exceptionalism. The Euro and schengen are at the heart of the EU for many EU governments and citizens. I think we would need to accept both to show that we where committed to being fully involved in the EU and not be the awkward member again. Ireland needed an opt out to avoid passport controls on the island of Ireland because the UK refused to join schengen.

I can certainly see the logic of both positions. It will very much depend on what the respective attitudes will be like, and as I've said I can't see any UK moves towards rejoining while the politicians involved in Brexit on both sides are still hanging around. It will need a completely new slate of senior politicians, and that will mean that attitudes towards everything can shift completely in the 30 years or so.
It's a fairly classic thing of economic benefits vs political positions vs diplomatic realities. Compromises will be made on both sides, but given what happened with NI and Brexit I'll not be saying which compromises will be made by whom.

If the UK rejoined the EU then the expectation would be both the UK and Ireland would join Schengen. Ireland relied heavily on EU solidarity during brexit and it would significantly undermine its reputation and trust if it prevented the EU imposing the normal membership criteria on the UK.

On this I think 1. It would be too much of a red line for the UK and 2. The CTA is still a thing and EU freedom of movement does not completely cover everything that was in the CTA. Of course in 30 years the politics of the UK, Ireland and specifically of Northern Ireland may well have changed markedly. Particularly Schengen is less important for travel to the UK and Ireland as collectively an island travel area, so you're showing passports anyway at the Docks/Airports. Schengen is a totally different kettle of fish for Land borders and I totally understand that for the contiguous members Schengen is an absolute.