Evolyn to investigate cross-Channel rail services (clarified to not include Mobico)

[Cloud Strife]

Regarding the post above about taking out the queueing area, given eurostar regularly queues out into the arcade I don't think you can say Eurostar doesn't need that space, although better use could be made of it.

It would be possible to do things in reverse: Schengen entry control at the entrance from the arcade with large amounts of egates, UK exit control behind it, then security as the third control.

I think the biggest issue is that St Pancras was also designed with a large arrivals area that wasn't needed in the end. If the area had been designed for the juxtaposed controls, then probably the arrivals area would have been tiny and the departure lounge would take up even 90% of the total space.

 

[zwk500]

It would be possible to do things in reverse: Schengen entry control at the entrance from the arcade with large amounts of egates, UK exit control behind it, then security as the third control.

Indeed. Although you would still need a queuing area for Schengen, as not everybody can use egates and egates can only process 1 person about every 10-15 seconds.

I think the biggest issue is that St Pancras was also designed with a large arrivals area that wasn't needed in the end. If the area had been designed for the juxtaposed controls, then probably the arrivals area would have been tiny and the departure lounge would take up even 90% of the total space.

The customs Lane is needed for the UK, and the arrivals Hall was needed when there were trains from extra destinations like disneyland. Although I believe there are works in hand to convert some of the arrivals.space for departures.

In my experience, the section that takes the longest is normally the security scan, not the passports though. When I've travelled at busy times, I've never found the passport queue backing up into security but very often the security queue backs up to the ticket gates. Not helped by a very large number of people offloading their trays at the nearest point rather than giving people behind them room to access their trays as they come.off the belt.

 

[Citybreak1]

Planned Eurostar competitor Evolyn to buy 12 trains from France's Alstom

Evolyn said on Wednesday it signed a deal to purchase 12 trains from Alstom for its planned high-speed rail service under the English Channel which aims to compete with Eurostar.

www.reuters.com

Evolyn said on Wednesday it signed a deal to purchase 12 trains from Alstom (ALSO.PA)for its planned high-speed rail service under the English Channel which aims to compete with Eurostar.

The purchase of 12 trains from France's Alstom could be expanded to 16 trains, Evolyn said in a statement.

The purchase of these trains might mean we finally see a rival?

 

[Farigiraf]

It's likely this'll be another Grand Union situation (Delayed, Criticised etc.) but France seems to be very pro rail (multiple new tram lines recently) so who knows?

 

[riceuten]

There are so many hurdles to be surpassed before this happens. And, with passport control restrictions meaning E* operating at much reduced capacity and seemingly no plans to address this, I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Citybreak1]

There are so many hurdles to be surpassed before this happens. And, with passport control restrictions meaning E* operating at much reduced capacity and seemingly no plans to address this, I'm not holding my breath.

They have fixed capacity issues in past few weeks another topic here said they are running to Paris full capacity.

 

[riceuten]

They have fixed capacity issues in past few weeks another topic here said they are running to Paris full capacity.

They are full to capacity...on the much reduced capacity.

 

[Sorcerer]

Nice to see a potential competitor for Eurostar on the horizon. I would guess that the trains ordered will probably be that of the Avelia family similar to the TGV-M and Avelia Liberty seeing as that's their primary high-speed train family right now. The AGV seems to be done with, and even the fastest Pendolinos might be too slow to properly compete with Eurostar.

 

[Citybreak1]

I think any new operator should offer services from Kent and Disneyland.

Evolyn to launch Paris – London trains in competition with Eurostar

EUROPE: High speed rail start-up Evolyn has announced plans to launch passenger services to compete with Eurostar on the 'strategic and high demand' route between Paris and London. On October 11 the company said it had reached an agreement to acquire 12 Avelia high speed trains ...

www.railwaygazette.com

Evolyn told Railway Gazette International that services would run non-stop between Paris Nord and London St Pancras International. Stops in northern France might be considered in the future, but no additional routes are being planned at this initial stage.

So Paris only.

 

[riceuten]

I'm cautious at what could be railway vapourware...and speculation thereof

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

A little more information from Railway Gazette:

Evolyn to launch Paris – London trains in competition with Eurostar

EUROPE: High speed rail start-up Evolyn has announced plans to launch passenger services to compete with Eurostar on the 'strategic and high demand' route between Paris and London. On October 11 the company said it had reached an agreement to acquire 12 Avelia high speed trains ...

www.railwaygazette.com

Apparently non-stop London-Paris, sponsored by the Cosmen family of Spain.
Finding channel tunnel-compatible trains by 2025 sounds ambitious, unless it is using retired Eurostar class 373s.
They haven't got track access rights yet.

It aims to launch its first services in 2025, with its full fleet in use in 2026. It would offer a ‘modern, innovative and sustainable’ option providing ‘the best quality offer at competitive prices’ to ‘become the trusted choice of users’.
Evolyn told Railway Gazette International that services would run non-stop between Paris Nord and London St Pancras International. Stops in northern France might be considered in the future, but no additional routes are being planned at this initial stage.
Evolyn has been developing its plans for three years, and discussions for track access rights are underway. It said the project represents an estimated total investment of £1bn, and has ‘high technical and financial soundness’.

 

[ainsworth74]

They are full to capacity...on the much reduced capacity.

Not sure if they're running as many trains as they were pre-pandemic/pre-Brexit but they are running the trains they have at full capacity (or nearly full capacity):

Eurostar has been able to run virtually full trains from London to the Continent for the first time since the pandemic after overcoming border control issues and staff shortages, it can be revealed.

The firm has been able to sell almost all 890 seats on its 16-carriage trains to Paris since last month after lifting a self-imposed “cap” on numbers that at one stage left 250 seats per train vacant.

...

François Le Doze, chief commercial officer at Eurostar, said “less than one per cent” of seats were capped.



He told the Standard: “The cap has almost gone. We have made massive progress on this. We have done a really good job with the authorities - the Border Force and the French border police.”

...

Eurostar running nearly full trains to Paris for first time since pandemic

Eurostar has been able to run virtually full trains from London to the Continent for the first time since the pandemic after overcoming border control issues and staff shortages, it can be revealed.

www.standard.co.uk

Finding channel tunnel-compatible trains by 2025 sounds ambitious, unless it is using retired Eurostar class 373s.

Presumably they will use the twelve Avelia units that they've signed an agreement with Alstom for to run the service and are mentioned in your quoted article? No 373s required and if they ordered them today 2025 doesn't sound especially ambitious for the first services to launch with full service from 2026. However this...

They haven't got track access rights yet.

...feels like a much bigger stumbling block! Then again presumably they wouldn't sign a contract for rolling stock if they weren't fairly confident they'd get access rights?

 

[BahrainLad]

Any modern stock cleared for French LGVs should be able to run through the tunnel, this idea there are onerous tunnel safety requirements really needs to be put to bed.

 

[Snow1964]

Sky is reporting Evolyn ordered 12 trains initially, but upto 16 which suggests they have 4 options

Evolyn said it had agreed to purchase 12 trains initially from French firm Alstom as part of its £1bn investment to date.

The company would be in direct competition with Eurostar, should its plans not hit the buffers, which has had a monopoly for 30 years but faced Brexit and COVID-related challenges to its growth.

Evolyn was borne out from the theory that rail traffic across Europe will only increase as journeys by car and plane face pressure from climate targets.

Chief executive Jorge Cosmen said: "We know that the governments of the United Kingdom and France welcome a project that will allow their citizens to increase the connection options between the UK and several countries in continental Europe with a green alternative that will also contribute to decarbonization."

The high-speed trains it has bought will be from Alstom's Avelia range, meeting "all current high standards of sustainability, efficiency and reduction of energy consumption and CO2 emissions", the company added.

It said that while it planned to launch services in 2025, it would be 2026 before it was fully operational.

Cross-channel rail competitor Evolyn buys 12 trains ahead of 2025 launch

The company says that competition on the route should improve fares and destinations for passengers once its services begin.

news.sky.com

Alstom Avelia is the new generation, available in single deck and double deck. Apparently the double deck version can seat upto 740 (but presumably lower if some is premium accommodation.

Presumably St Pancras will have to start getting its act together if start getting trains of 1200+ every few minutes at peak time (and I am pretty sure the slots are flighted through channel tunnel, so trains will arrive in bunches, not evenly spaced).

 

[Citybreak1]

Sky is reporting Evolyn ordered 12 trains initially, but upto 16 which suggests they have 4 options

Cross-channel rail competitor Evolyn buys 12 trains ahead of 2025 launch

The company says that competition on the route should improve fares and destinations for passengers once its services begin.

news.sky.com

Alstom Avelia is the new generation, available in single deck and double deck. Apparently the double deck version can seat upto 740 (but presumably lower if some is premium accommodation.

Presumably St Pancras will have to start getting its act together if start getting trains of 1200+ every few minutes at peak time (and I am pretty sure the slots are flighted through channel tunnel, so trains will arrive in bunches, not evenly spaced).

Will they run double decker trains through the tunnel?

 

[martin2345uk]

Where would the trains be stabled/maintained? Presumably in France somewhere?

 

[Sorcerer]

Will they run double decker trains through the tunnel?

No reason why they couldn't since the infrastructure supports bi-level trains, and it would increase capacity while also taking up the same amount of platforms at St. Pancras and Gare Du Nord as a single deck train. I think the decision to use double-decker trains will depend on the market demand more than anything, and on that I can't say whether so many extra seats will be practical.

 

[Gaelan]

I think any new operator should offer services from Kent and Disneyland.

Evolyn to launch Paris – London trains in competition with Eurostar

EUROPE: High speed rail start-up Evolyn has announced plans to launch passenger services to compete with Eurostar on the 'strategic and high demand' route between Paris and London. On October 11 the company said it had reached an agreement to acquire 12 Avelia high speed trains ...

www.railwaygazette.com

So Paris only.

Surprised they're planning on using StP and not Stratford/Ebbsfleet/Ashford - presumably this means they think the passport control issues are surmountable, somehow or another.

 

[AlexNL]

The 2025 timeframe is probably feasible if the order is for a (variant of) the TGV M, so double decker coaches. The production lines for those are running at full speed and type certification is underway. I don't think Alstom could deliver a type certified single decker design in a 2 year timeframe.

 

[jon0844]

Surprised they're planning on using StP and not Stratford/Ebbsfleet/Ashford - presumably this means they think the passport control issues are surmountable, somehow or another.

Given the lack of room (currently at least) at St Pancras, you'd think it would make more sense to stop at Ebbsfleet and/or Ashford so they could use that extra capacity split over two or three locations - as well as potentially securing more custom if Eurostar doesn't instantly restart its services too.

I would really like to see new destinations too, not just a company trying to get a share of existing revenue, but I guess they have to start somewhere.

 

[DanielB]

No reason why they couldn't since the infrastructure supports bi-level trains

The tunnel obviously supports it considering the height of the car/truck carrying wagons, but does the infrastructure within the UK also support doubledecker trains?
As these don't exits with any rail carrier in the UK I could imagine issues with OHLE at a too low height for example?

 

[AlexNL]

The international portion of High Speed 1 and its stations is built entirely to continental standards, Eurostar prove as much every day with their e320 trains.

A problem would be with entry: as far as I'm aware all platforms have been built to a platform height of 76cm above top of rail, whereas the TGV M is built to the French norm of 55cm above TOR. If the ordered trains are indeed a TGV M derived design, that would mean stepping down to get into the train.

 

[Gaelan]

The international portion of High Speed 1 and its stations is built entirely to continental standards, Eurostar prove as much every day with their e320 trains.

A problem would be with entry: as far as I'm aware all platforms have been built to a platform height of 76cm above top of rail, whereas the TGV M is built to the French norm of 55cm above TOR. If the ordered trains are indeed a TGV M derived design, that would mean stepping down to get into the train.

Apologies if this is obvious, but is there any reason that’s more problematic than a step up?

 

[popeter45]

The international portion of High Speed 1 and its stations is built entirely to continental standards, Eurostar prove as much every day with their e320 trains.

A problem would be with entry: as far as I'm aware all platforms have been built to a platform height of 76cm above top of rail, whereas the TGV M is built to the French norm of 55cm above TOR. If the ordered trains are indeed a TGV M derived design, that would mean stepping down to get into the train.

if Alstom did their design right then building to a 76cm platform design should be easy

 

[AlexNL]

Apologies if this is obvious, but is there any reason that’s more problematic than a step up?

Depends on how tall you are

Look at this trip report of a TGV from Frankfurt for example, look at how low the doorway is compared to the person standing outside:

if Alstom did their design right then building to a 76cm platform design should be easy

Nothing is ever easy on the railway

 

[Snow1964]

Apologies if this is obvious, but is there any reason that’s more problematic than a step up?

Not really, everyone that gets on the train, gets off at another station, so generally everyone has to step up in one direction and step down in the other.

No real change of risk if change the order as both still happen. More an expectation, but some places having level boarding is changing the stepping expectation anyway.

 

[Sorcerer]

The tunnel obviously supports it considering the height of the car/truck carrying wagons, but does the infrastructure within the UK also support doubledecker trains?
As these don't exits with any rail carrier in the UK I could imagine issues with OHLE at a too low height for example?

High Speed 1 is built to full to European standards, and since this open-access service won't be going beyond St. Pancras it is definitely enough for a TGV M derived train. I expect that based on the comment above of TGV M being designed for a platform heigh of 55cm rather than 76cm that maybe we could get some single deck coaches rather than double. I do think there is still a possibility that Evolyn could have ordered an AGV design but at this point it's mere speculation.

 

[Gaelan]

Depends on how tall you are

Touché - a problem I'd likely discover very quickly if I tried to actually board such a train

 

[Snow1964]

The 2025 timeframe is probably feasible if the order is for a (variant of) the TGV M, so double decker coaches. The production lines for those are running at full speed and type certification is underway. I don't think Alstom could deliver a type certified single decker design in a 2 year timeframe.

The coaches are assembled at La Rochelle
Power Cars at Belfort
But parts come from at least dozen other factories

 

[Trainbike46]

There are so many hurdles to be surpassed before this happens. And, with passport control restrictions meaning E* operating at much reduced capacity and seemingly no plans to address this, I'm not holding my breath.

There are plans to address this:
- two extra passport lines at St Pancras (opened this year)
- Amsterdam terminal move (increases capacity to 600 passengers per train)

And there's hope that when EES and ETIAS have bedded in passport checks will be faster again

No reason why they couldn't since the infrastructure supports bi-level trains, and it would increase capacity while also taking up the same amount of platforms at St. Pancras and Gare Du Nord as a single deck train. I think the decision to use double-decker trains will depend on the market demand more than anything, and on that I can't say whether so many extra seats will be practical.

As you need a 400m train anyway, it would be a question whether it is worth going for a double-decker. an e320 has 900 seats, so a double-decker would be more than that which you might not want (or be able to fill given security check limitations!)