Evolyn to investigate cross-Channel rail services (clarified to not include Mobico)

[BahrainLad]

You don’t need a 400m train.

 

[Trainbike46]

You don’t need a 400m train.

Technically the channel tunnel rules state that the minimum train length is 375m, so while you don't have to have a 400m train, it's not far off. The issue of whether there is a market (and security capacity!) for a train with well over 900 seats, as a double decker would end up having, remains

 

[AdamWW]

The issue of whether there is a market (and security capacity!) for a train with well over 900 seats, as a double decker would end up having, remains

I suppose in principle that's not necessarily true.

You could use the extra space to provide a lower number of seats and give everyone more space.

 

[BahrainLad]

Technically the channel tunnel rules state that the minimum train length is 375m, so while you don't have to have a 400m train, it's not far off. The issue of whether there is a market (and security capacity!) for a train with well over 900 seats, as a double decker would end up having, remains

No, that rule was dropped in 2011 and as I said it’s an (inexplicable) urban myth that it persists.

Review of specific safety rules for trains transiting the tunnel – The IGC
published the conclusions of its review on 31 March 2010. The IGC asked ERA
for a technical opinion on these conclusions in December 2010. The opinion
was published in March 2011.
Further to the opinion, the IGC asked to make the necessary changes to its
operating rules to remove rules requiring compliance with particular fire
protection standards for the design and performance of vehicles and their
fittings, and for call buttons at the end of each coach, as these requirements are
dealt with by the rolling stock TSIs. It was also decided that trains no longer
had to have the ablility to be split. Finally, trains were no longer required to be
of a particular length; have a through-corridor; and motor units at each end, and
applicants were invited to propose such systems with a requisite risk
assessment using EC Regulation 352/2009.
20120928 - IGC Annual Report 2011 EN 3145826 10/25

https://www.channeltunneligc.co.uk/spip.php?action=acceder_document&arg=219&cle=a02b070c77e16c4da14bd9612ff221bc&file=pdf%2F20120928_-_IGC_Annual_Report_2011_EN-3.pdf

you may also wish to consult this document

https://www.channeltunneligc.co.uk/spip.php?action=acceder_document&arg=512&cle=9679e069e9e2a98e15e71f72c40a0263&file=pdf%2FRevised_CT_reference_document_national_rules_for_rail_vehicles_-_post_Agency_Opinion_revised_version.pdf

 

[YorkRailFan]

Interesting that if this does succeed, it will be the only operator to operate double decker trains to the UK, it would provide Eurostar with some much needed competition and could lower prices if it were to succeed. Sadly I don't think that they will provide as frequent of a service as Eurostar, due to them only ordering 12, so it would be more what Lumo, GC and HT are doing to LNER.

 

[James Finch]

No, that rule was dropped in 2011 and as I said it’s an (inexplicable) urban myth that it persists.

https://www.channeltunneligc.co.uk/spip.php?action=acceder_document&arg=219&cle=a02b070c77e16c4da14bd9612ff221bc&file=pdf%2F20120928_-_IGC_Annual_Report_2011_EN-3.pdf

you may also wish to consult this document

https://www.channeltunneligc.co.uk/spip.php?action=acceder_document&arg=512&cle=9679e069e9e2a98e15e71f72c40a0263&file=pdf%2FRevised_CT_reference_document_national_rules_for_rail_vehicles_-_post_Agency_Opinion_revised_version.pdf

Would it make sense then ordering a more traditional TGV trainset (2 power cars + 8 coaches), and allow for the option of doubling up if necessary?

Also good to know, as it means one of the main limitations of DB not offering a service in 2010 is no longer a restriction...

Interesting that if this does succeed, it will be the only operator to operate double decker trains to the UK, it would provide Eurostar with some much needed competition and could lower prices if it were to succeed. Sadly I don't think that they will provide as frequent of a service as Eurostar, due to them only ordering 12, so it would be more what Lumo, GC and HT are doing to LNER.

Based on what I've read on here and in the media, I'd say Lumo is rather successful with only 5tpd! It depends on their operating model - blended (i.e. similar to Eurostar, standard and 1st class), or budget only, and what service pattern they will offer, as to the utilisation of the sets. Would 1tp2h be possible with 12 trainsets?

 

[Snow1964]

Interesting that if this does succeed, it will be the only operator to operate double decker trains to the UK, it would provide Eurostar with some much needed competition and could lower prices if it were to succeed. Sadly I don't think that they will provide as frequent of a service as Eurostar, due to them only ordering 12, so it would be more what Lumo, GC and HT are doing to LNER.

Alternatively might do more of style of Spanish High speed rail competitor iryo. 4 grades of tickets with set of fees for amendments and flexibility to change depending on grade. More like an airline

Linking their website which shows the types of ticket and extra charges

https://iryo.eu/en/products

Unlike Mobico, seems Evolyn is Spanish, or rather ultimately owned by Compania de los Ferrocarriles Economicos de Asturias SAU, which makes the Spanish high speed passenger model seem a realistic scenario.

EVOLYN MOBILITY LIMITED overview - Find and update company information - GOV.UK

EVOLYN MOBILITY LIMITED - Free company information from Companies House including registered office address, filing history, accounts, annual return, officers, charges, business activity

find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk

 

[YorkRailFan]

I'd say Lumo is rather successful with only 5tpd!

Nothing against Lumo here, just saying that it wouldn't be an hourly service, so those looking for a real budget rail operator between the UK and the continent wouldn't have a lot of flexibility compared to Eurostar passengers. As we have seen recently, GC has been struggling and their low frequency has been a pain for passengers whose service has been cancelled and no ticket acceptance with LNER has been agreed.

Alternatively might do more of style of Spanish High speed rail competitor iryo. 4 grades of tickets with set of fees for amendments and flexibility to change depending on grade. More like an airline

True, they may try to compete with LCCs (Low Cost Carriers) instead of Eurostar, which will still help lower Eurostar's prices, and do what Iryo and Lumo are doing.

 

[Farigiraf]

Alternatively might do more of style of Spanish High speed rail competitor iryo. 4 grades of tickets with set of fees for amendments and flexibility to change depending on grade. More like an airline

Linking their website which shows the types of ticket and extra charges

https://iryo.eu/en/products

Unlike Mobico, seems Evolyn is Spanish, or rather ultimately owned by Compania de los Ferrocarriles Economicos de Asturias SAU, which makes the Spanish high speed passenger model seem a realistic scenario.

EVOLYN MOBILITY LIMITED overview - Find and update company information - GOV.UK

EVOLYN MOBILITY LIMITED - Free company information from Companies House including registered office address, filing history, accounts, annual return, officers, charges, business activity

find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk

I do hope that they refrain from the extra charge hell of Wizzair and Ryanair. I tried to book a flight with one last month for a few months ahead and extra baggage prices were already in the £100s.

Open access operators are usually very hit or miss, Lumo is good for what it's set up for (which is commuting long distance), Hull Trains is fine AFAIK, but Grand Central has recently been quite a nightmare. Luckily all these have reduced LNER prices though, which is the hopeful goal of Evolyn (as well as the double decker train which I always enjoy when in central Europe).

edit: I just visited their website and it's not looking promising, but with trains it's usually not the biggest problem and the "pay more for this thing that you don't actually need but we make it seem like you do" is usually more of a luxury... Maybe we'll see the return of Flixbus's 'Buy the seat next to you' introvert tax!

 

[BRX]

If a Eurostar competitor only offered a few services a day, that would still be very useful for those traveling on a budget. As it stands, if you want to travel on Eurostar for a non exorbitant price, that often means choosing from only a couple of options per day, usually at inconvenient times.

They'd do well if they could sort out some through ticketing deals with other operators too - for destinations beyond Paris.

 

[nwales58]

1) IRJ thinks single-deck

2) This is at an early stage so price structures is speculation. Could be anything from Ouigo-simple to RENFE rabbit warren.

3) St Pancras and Paris Nord are capacity-limited. Why would this lead to lower fares necessarily? Slot-constrained Heathrow is the obvious parallel, yields and margins there are far juicier than elsewhere. Open access fare wars on rail need loads of spare capacity end-end; Spanish HSLs are the obvious example, London-Paris is not.

 

[Gaelan]

Sadly I don't think that they will provide as frequent of a service as Eurostar, due to them only ordering 12

On the back of a napkin: London to Paris is 2h15m, 1h30 turnaround at either end (about as low as Eurostar seems willing to go), so 8 units should be able to sustain 1tph? Plus four more, either to keep spare or to run extra peak trains. Not too far off from what Eurostar runs on the Paris route.

Not a train planner, mind you, so very possible I'm utterly bungling the math here.

 

[JaJaWa]

Interesting they have a website (and logo): https://evolyn.com/

 

[Snow1964]

Interesting they have a website (and logo): https://evolyn.com/

• EVOLYN, the new rail operator for the Channel Tunnel, will launch a high-speed rail service to offer a modern, innovative and sustainable alternative to the more than 11 million passengers who travel by train between the UK and different countries of mainland Europe every year.
• The new operator has reached an agreement for the acquisition of 12 high-speed trains -that could scale up to 16 from the French manufacturer Alstom with the aim of starting to run in 2025.
• EVOLYN is a project of high technical and financial soundness that has been under development for the last three years and continues to move forward to offer a competitive alternative in terms of service and price on a strategic and high-demand connection that currently has only one operator, while responding to the growing demand for green transportation

The EVOLYN project involves an estimated total investment of £1 billion GBP. It is led by the Spanish Cosmen family and is backed by important British and French industrial and financial partners. Thus, EVOLYN is born as a solid combination of an extensive and proven industrial experience together with an important financial strength.

"The acquisition of 12 high-speed, state-of-the-art trains, to be expanded to a minimum of 16 according to our forecasts, is the definitive step in the materialization of EVOLYN, a high-speed rail operator that has been under development for three years and that today marks a very important milestone. We know that the governments of the United Kingdom and France welcome a project that will allow their citizens to increase the connection options between the UK and several countries in continental Europe with a green alternative that will also contribute to decarbonization", says Jorge Cosmen, CEO of EVOLYN.

The high-speed trains will be of the AVELIA range and will meet all current high standards of sustainability, efficiency and reduction of energy consumption and CO2 emissions. Specifically, EVOLYN plans to contribute to achieving a significant reduction in CO2 emissions by 2030 and zero emissions by 2050, by offering much cleaner, greener and smarter transport. In terms of sustainability, EVOLYN's new service will therefore be one of the best solutions on the market, offering travelers the best modern and digital customer experience.

All in all, EVOLYN will become an innovative alternative for a strategic and high-demand line both in the UK and Europe, which will seek to provide the best quality offer at competitive prices and become the trusted choice of users.

EVOLYN ACQUIRE 12 HIGH-SPEED TRAINS FROM ALSTOM TO LINK UK AND UE

EVOLYN, the new rail operator for the Channel Tunnel, will launch a high-speed rail service to offer a modern, innovative and sustainable alternative to the more than 11 million passengers who travel by train between the...

evolyn.com

Looks to me they are offering the Green low carbon alternative

 

[Fragezeichnen]

I'm inclined to think that what Evolyn is saying might not really be the true picture. You would expect Alstom to be trumpeting to the world that they are back in the cross-channel train building business, but they haven't said a peep. Perhaps there is an outline agreement on the table but Evolyn didn't actually sign on the dotted line yet.

Then there's the timescale.
How many months did it take for established operator LNWR to find some spare trains for the Bedford - Blechtley line, test them, retrain the same staff who operated them before and get them into service?

And in two years are Alstom supposed to design and build(where? SNCF won't be pleased if their TGV M deliveries are delayed by a E* rival) a new variant of TGV, do homologation for three different infrastructure operators, whilst the operator will have to acquire all the necessary licenses, build a new maintenance depot and train new staff?! I wouldn't be surprised if this project eventually comes to fruition, but personally I think the idea that passengers will be stepping onto an Evolyn cross channel train 2025 is pure fantasy and just makes them look less credible.

 

[YorkRailFan]

On the back of a napkin: London to Paris is 2h15m, 1h30 turnaround at either end (about as low as Eurostar seems willing to go), so 8 units should be able to sustain 1tph? Plus four more, either to keep spare or to run extra peak trains. Not too far off from what Eurostar runs on the Paris route.

Not a train planner, mind you, so very possible I'm utterly bungling the math here.

True, they could do that at the start, and then lower the frequency or order more trains if they wish to expand elsewhere, like to Brussels or Amsterdam.

 

[AdamWW]

I'm inclined to think that what Evolyn is saying might not really be the true picture. You would expect Alstom to be trumpeting to the world that they are back in the cross-channel train building business, but they haven't said a peep. Perhaps there is an outline agreement on the table but Evolyn didn't actually sign on the dotted line yet.

The wording "The new operator has reached an agreement for the acquisition of 12 high-speed trains" is perhaps not what you'd write if the trains had actually been ordered.

 

[Snow1964]

And in two years are Alstom supposed to design and build(where? SNCF won't be pleased if their TGV M deliveries are delayed by a E* rival) a new variant of TGV, do homologation for three different infrastructure operators, whilst the operator will have to acquire all the necessary licenses, build a new maintenance depot and train new staff?! I wouldn't be surprised if this project eventually comes to fruition, but personally I think the idea that passengers will be stepping onto an Evolyn cross channel train 2025 is pure fantasy and just makes them look less credible.

The project has apparently been in development for 3 years, so possibly they have options on build slots. Maybe they have agreement to hire or takeover some of the existing order which is why Alstom are quiet

Alstom have already confirmed the second TGM-M test train starts November, so maybe they will get one run through to St Pancras in few months time for certification (HS1 is basically built to French ligne a Grand Vitesse standards)

Staffing is interesting one, but maybe they will poach staff (didn't Eurostar take staff from BR, SNCF, SNCF when they started)

But I agree timescale seems ambitious

 

[Re 4/4]

According to https://www.lok-report.de/news/deut...-grossbritannien-mit-europa-zu-verbinden.html (in German) which is essentially a press release by Evolyn, it's going to be Avelia trains "of the newest generation" following "three years of development time". The accompanying photo is a double deck train but that's not saying much.

The page also says "vereinbarung ... getroffen" (agreement reached) which is not quite as strong as "unterzeichnet" (signed), so I'm guessing nothing had been signed yet at the time of the press release.

 

[AdamWW]

Staffing is interesting one, but maybe they will poach staff (didn't Eurostar take staff from BR, SNCF, SNCF

Well Eurostar was owned by the three companies at the time.

 

[ainsworth74]

3) St Pancras and Paris Nord are capacity-limited. Why would this lead to lower fares necessarily? Slot-constrained Heathrow is the obvious parallel, yields and margins there are far juicier than elsewhere. Open access fare wars on rail need loads of spare capacity end-end; Spanish HSLs are the obvious example, London-Paris is not.

I was thinking that...

I do think Eurostar would benefit from having a bit of competition on their routes just to sharpen them up a bit (though obviously they've always faced competition from airlines so they can't have allowed themselves to get to complacent) but I'm far from convinced it will yield lower fares. After all the various access fees for the requisite infrastructure plus staffing costs plus the costs of the trains themselves places a hard floor how cheap a fare can be! It might constrain Eurostar at the high end (I wonder, for instance, if we might see some movement on the Business Premier fare if that's a market segment the new operator target?) and mean that some trains might see cheaper fares than they do now but not necessarily "cheap". For instance if a train is currently regularly £120 in standard class then this competition might cause Eurostar to reduce the fare to £100 if one of these competing services departs around the same time. So, cheaper for sure but not cheap and I can't see a flood of fares coming on the market at £30!

 

[AlexNL]

The wording "The new operator has reached an agreement for the acquisition of 12 high-speed trains" is perhaps not what you'd write if the trains had actually been ordered.

That very likely means it's still pending a financial close. Alstom will probably remain quiet on the subject until the order is final and they can start building.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

You wouldn't start a train build/sign a production contract until there is an access agreement (which would have to include maintenance and stabling facilities).
There will be capacity on the route, but terminals and the rest will be tricky, given that SNCF holds most of the cards.

 

[AlexNL]

The SNCF of today isn't the same anti-competitive SNCF of a decade ago, though. Some reforms within the company have seen to that.

The responsibility of operation of stations and such has transferred to a dedicated business unit within SNCF Réseau, the network operator. This one is pretty much uncoupled from the operator of passenger trains, and has its own targets to meet. This part of SNCF was more than happy to welcome Renfe and Trenitalia to the French railway network.

Another example is a cooperation between SNCF and Trenitalia when it comes to maintenance of trains. Due to the Modane landslip, Trenitalia's Frecciarossa 1000 trains can no longer get to Milan for their maintenance. SNCF and TI have negotiated an agreement that these trains can now be maintained at an SNCF depot within France.

Of course that doesn't do away with capacity constraints within the Paris Nord terminal area, but it does provide some hope that SNCF might be more welcoming to other operators than they once were.

 

[nwales58]

More fragments from the IRJ article: Evolyn claims agreement with Alstom but Alstom only confirms discussions.

Trains suitable for operation across Europe which could mean 12 x 200m not 400m as those would be harder to re-deploy elsewhere. Evolyn say it is too early to confirm how many daily services.

On track access, "all necessary processes are in place" for the applications. So a long way yet to get to actual rolling stock, approvals and paths.

 

[jon0844]

The wording "The new operator has reached an agreement for the acquisition of 12 high-speed trains" is perhaps not what you'd write if the trains had actually been ordered.

The website does look very much like a free Wordpress template, but I do hope this is all genuine and above board - and not an enthusiasts' wet dream on running a railway (or like the guy who pretended to be close to reintroducing a ferry crossing from Harwich to Esbjerg after DFDS pulled out).

I mean, I'm sure we could all send an email to Alstom and ask how much 12 trains would cost!!

 

[AlexNL]

Alstom have also heard the news, here's their statement:

Alstom statement on Evolyn Press Release issued on October 11​

13 October 2023 – In reference to the recent Evolyn Press Release issued on October 11, which seemingly confirmed an agreement between Evolyn and Alstom for the acquisition of twelve (12) Very High-Speed Trains, Alstom would like to provide important information, as a means of clarification, and as such wishes to highlight the following items:

Alstom and Evolyn have established a short-term agreement to proceed with initial train system engineering activities with the objective of accelerating activities, should the parties eventually enter into a contract for the purchase and delivery of a certain number of trains, provided that Evolyn is capable of securing project financing.

With regards to potential future delivery dates for new trains, at this time, the final train delivery dates will be confirmed when a firm and final contract will be agreed upon, to be signed at a later date.

 

[AdamWW]

Alstom have also heard the news, here's their statement:

Wow!

 

[Brissle Girl]

For those in the West of England, the proposal appears to have parallels with the Go-op plans to introduce new local services between (name any two stations - they've probably been suggested at some point) using (name this week's proposal for rolling stock) that has been kicking around for about 10 years now.

 

[Speed43125]

Quite a blunt reference to them potentially being short of funds for an acquisition. Suggests perhaps lack of confidence in the venture?