Ex LNER (and Grand Central) Mark 4 sets for TfW

[Doveymain158]

Regarding the MkIVs being fitted for the Class 67s, what exactly needs to be done?

It does seem strange as the 67s have hauled the MkIVs (albeit coupled to a 90/91 or the DVT) either to rescue the sets, or when on diversion via Carlisle between Newcastle and Edinburgh.

The 67s on the ECML were only used as thunderbirds to drag the stock. They were never able to work in push pull mode with a DVT

 

[adrock1976]

The 67s on the ECML were only used as thunderbirds to drag the stock. They were never able to work in push pull mode with a DVT

Many thanks.

 

[craigybagel]

Basically the DVTs need conversion from TDM to AAR to be able to control the loco from the DVT. They also need notches added to the power controller to match an 8 notch diesel loco (as opposed to the notch free electric loco control) , plus a few other switches altering.

 

[tiptoptaff]

Basically the DVTs need conversion from TDM to AAR to be able to control the loco from the DVT. They also need notches added to the power controller to match an 8 notch diesel loco (as opposed to the notch free electric loco control) , plus a few other switches altering.

Are 67s notched? I thought they weren't

 

[craigybagel]

Are 67s notched? I thought they weren't

They are indeed - idle + 8 power notches.

 

[XAM2175]

Are 67s notched? I thought they weren't

They are indeed - idle + 8 power notches.

Straight off the EMD parts shelf

 

[tiptoptaff]

They are indeed - idle + 8 power notches.

Interesting, thanks!
Must admit, I've only been in the cab of one once, for about 2minutes during a Canton shed tour, several years ago!

 

[Nym]

Basically the DVTs need conversion from TDM to AAR to be able to control the loco from the DVT. They also need notches added to the power controller to match an 8 notch diesel loco (as opposed to the notch free electric loco control) , plus a few other switches altering.

Also a load of new wires laying in.

 

[DB]

Also a load of new wires laying in.

And modifications to the locos too - hence the need for a dedicated pool whereas with the ATW Mk3s any 67 which had had the fire system modifications (which was most of them) could be used.

 

[43096]

And modifications to the locos too - hence the need for a dedicated pool whereas with the ATW Mk3s any 67 which had had the fire system modifications (which was most of them) could be used.

The locos need modification for traction/brake interlock. It's obvious which ones have been done as they gain an additional socket on the front end near the AAR socket.

Seven have so far been modified: 67008/010/013-015/017/025. Presumably another three or four will be done for the extra sets.

 

[craigybagel]

Straight off the EMD parts shelf

Very true! Although I think the gate put in the controller so that you can't go straight into notch 8 is an EWS addition?

Interesting, thanks!
Must admit, I've only been in the cab of one once, for about 2minutes during a Canton shed tour, several years ago!

Worth a cab ride if you can ever get one - it's quite the experience, rightly or wrongly!

Also a load of new wires laying in.

And modifications to the locos too - hence the need for a dedicated pool whereas with the ATW Mk3s any 67 which had had the fire system modifications (which was most of them) could be used.

Indeed, I may have over simplified slightly. It's quite a big job - and this time around it involves a lot more work on the 67s as well compared to when the MKIIIs were introduced.

 

[tiptoptaff]

Worth a cab ride if you can ever get one - it's quite the experience, rightly or wrongly!

As much as I'd love one, I've long since left your TOC! Extremely unlikely ours will ever return to LHCS, beyond the sleeper

 

[DB]

Indeed, I may have over simplified slightly. It's quite a big job - and this time around it involves a lot more work on the 67s as well compared to when the MKIIIs were introduced.

Believe it was just the fire system mods to work with the Mk3s, although a non-modified loco could be used with a rider in it. When Chiltern fitted power doors to their mk3 sets the 67s were also fitted with door controls (through the RCH jumpers, possibly?).

 

[craigybagel]

As much as I'd love one, I've long since left your TOC! Extremely unlikely ours will ever return to LHCS, beyond the sleeper

Route refresh is your friend - at least when we're allowed to route refresh in cabs again!

Believe it was just the fire system mods to work with the Mk3s, although a non-modified loco could be used with a rider in it. When Chiltern fitted power doors to their mk3 sets the 67s were also fitted with door controls (through the RCH jumpers, possibly?).

I did wonder about those Chiltern door mods. Some of their former locos were later used at TfW and they had the door controls still fitted though obviously we never used them and I've no idea if they ever worked?

No need for them on the TfW 67s anyway - I can't see driver door opening coming any time soon and especially not on the MKIVs.

 

[tiptoptaff]

Route refresh is your friend - at least when we're allowed to route refresh in cabs again!

If I could ever justify trying, I would!!

 

[DB]

I did wonder about those Chiltern door mods. Some of their former locos were later used at TfW and they had the door controls still fitted though obviously we never used them and I've no idea if they ever worked?

There were articles mentioning them at the time they were fitted (a number of the locos apparently had them fitted, not just the Chiltern-liveried ones, as a lot of them worked Chiltern services at one time or another), so they did work.

When the 68s came along there was mention on one of the forums (from a Chiltern driver as I recall) that the 68s don't have them - hence my surmise that they may have used the RCH connectors as the 68s don't have those.

 

[Caaardiff]

Have all of these Mk4 sets been bought outright by TfW or just certain sets such as either the current 3 due in service or the ex GC ones?
Is there any timescale for how long these will be in service? While a fairly decent improved comfort, capacity and on board offering, they are an ageing fleet where other TOC's are retiring them for newer more efficient fleets, hence TfW (as usual) picking up others cast off.

I would guess no commitment would be made until all the Mk4's are up and running and a review of the service, but long term what would the replacement options be? 5-car 800's? 4-car Flirts? Given Flirts already being part of the future fleet, they would be a good to eventually replace the Mk4's on the marches.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

As TfW now own the Mk4s, I expect they will run them into the ground before replacing them.
Although they will be practically new inside, they are very high mileage stock, and are already 30 years old.
I'd give them 10 years.

Probably in time to take on TPE's Mk5s, after TP electrification is done.
All TfW's new rolling stock still has to prove itself in service, even the Flirts.
GBR will also be dictating rolling stock policy before long, even if TfW can take its own tack.
Best stop there, as this is going off-topic...

 

[Meerkat]

Have TfW bought any spare coaches to cover accidents, and a stock of parts from the broken up Mk4s?

 

[tiptoptaff]

Have TfW bought any spare coaches to cover accidents, and a stock of parts from the broken up Mk4s?

I believe there are a handful of spare vehicles

 

[hexagon789]

Have TfW bought any spare coaches to cover accidents, and a stock of parts from the broken up Mk4s?

10 spares I read

 

[berneyarms]

They originally bought three ex-LNER sets to operate two diagrams on Cardiff-Holyhead. Each consisted of a DVT, First, Buffet and two Standard coaches. So two rakes, plus an operational spare to be rotated for maintenance.

They have now bought four ex-GC sets, each consisting of a DVT, First, Buffet and three Standards. It is unclear as yet whether TfW plan to have all four of these sets rostered in service each day between South Wales and Manchester or if only three of the four will be.

Add to that they have an additional six coaches, consisting of a spare DVT, a spare Buffet, a spare Standard, and also three additional Standard coaches which will be used to lengthen the three original sets by an extra coach each.

So, if we assume six sets out of seven in service on any day, that means one full set spare for operational maintenance plus a spare DVT, Buffet and Standard.
If it is only to be five sets out of seven in service, then you have two full spare sets, plus the spare DVT, Buffet and Standard.

We will have to wait and see what actually transpires in terms of daily service requirements.

 

[warwickshire]

Good evening the one that VERY nearly slipped away whilst at Doncaster today wednesday the 18th August 2021. Well worth it and getting home a hour later absolutely the dream.
However a move took place that I didn't know about nor mentioned on here However so lucky saw train coming at Doncaster then got move captured.
But had to wait a hour for the next Sheffield.
However 5Q80 1421 worksop down yard to Doncaster wagon works.
Was 66745 with grand Central dvt 82201 12211 12434 12310 10318 11319 in ex grand Central livery.
Followed by in ex lner livery was 12215 12324 10305 12315 12304 with ex DVT lner ie 82220.
Note dvt is driving van trailer.
However have transport for wales taken on some more lner coaches and stock as well as the x 4 ex grand Central sets?.
Also will anymore ex lner coaches also go to Doncaster as well for more extra sets.
When finished at Doncaster will these sets get delivered five car. Ie back to transport for wales.
Or could it be a impressing 10 car plus driving van trailers.

 

[krus_aragon]

However have transport for wales taken on some more lner coaches and stock as well as the x 4 ex grand Central sets?.
Also will anymore ex lner coaches also go to Doncaster as well for more extra sets.
When finished at Doncaster will these sets get delivered five car. Ie back to transport for wales.
Or could it be a impressing 10 car plus driving van trailers.

Posts on the LNER thread have quoted some of those vehicle numbers as part of a rake being overhauled for use over on the East Coast:

A pair of Rail Operations Group 37s took a formation of 10 Mark 4s (from former sets BN16 and BN18) and two DVTs (82215 and 82222) from Worksop to Doncaster today for overhaul. These will return to service with LNER - a new 9 car set numbered NL16 will be made up from those vehicles, with DVT 82222 and TSOE 12202 becoming additional spare vehicles.

Overseen elsewhere that NL16 will be 12213 12428 12467 12433 12312 10315 11418 11318 11416.

Not sure how accurate given 12312 is the standard accessible from BN14 (I think?), and you'd expect a 112xx vehicle (first class with the staff area) in the consist.

 

[mainframe444]

Interesting, thanks!
Must admit, I've only been in the cab of one once, for about 2minutes during a Canton shed tour, several years ago!

They are indeed - idle + 8 power notches.

Certain 68s have a plate riveted to the controller preventing the selection of notch 8 to save fuel.

M

 

[DanNCL]

Good evening the one that VERY nearly slipped away whilst at Doncaster today wednesday the 18th August 2021. Well worth it and getting home a hour later absolutely the dream.
However a move took place that I didn't know about nor mentioned on here However so lucky saw train coming at Doncaster then got move captured.
But had to wait a hour for the next Sheffield.
However 5Q80 1421 worksop down yard to Doncaster wagon works.
Was 66745 with grand Central dvt 82201 12211 12434 12310 10318 11319 in ex grand Central livery.
Followed by in ex lner livery was 12215 12324 10305 12315 12304 with ex DVT lner ie 82220.
Note dvt is driving van trailer.
However have transport for wales taken on some more lner coaches and stock as well as the x 4 ex grand Central sets?.
Also will anymore ex lner coaches also go to Doncaster as well for more extra sets.
When finished at Doncaster will these sets get delivered five car. Ie back to transport for wales.
Or could it be a impressing 10 car plus driving van trailers.

Posts on the LNER thread have quoted some of those vehicle numbers as part of a rake being overhauled for use over on the East Coast:

The LNER livery Mark 4s on the most recent move are for TFW, to lengthen the existing sets to be the same length as the ex-GC ones, and to provide extra spares.

The vehicles taken back on lease by LNER were all moved to Doncaster separately from the TFW ones.

 

[43096]

10 spares I read

TfW have bought 45 vehicles: 7 x 6-car sets including DVT, plus one each of TOE, SV and DVT as spare vehicles.

 

[wobman]

TfW have bought 45 vehicles: 7 x 6-car sets including DVT, plus one each of TOE, SV and DVT as spare vehicles.

Hopefully next year the extra sets will be used for special services, they are needed for holiday traffic along the N Wales coast. It's been the worse I've ever seen this year, running 2 car DMU's a lot of the time.
The MK4s would be ideal for limited stop holiday season special services.

 

[krus_aragon]

The LNER livery Mark 4s on the most recent move are for TFW, to lengthen the existing sets to be the same length as the ex-GC ones, and to provide extra spares.

The vehicles taken back on lease by LNER were all moved to Doncaster separately from the TFW ones.

While Alt-tabbing I seem to have confused 10315 and 11318 with 12315 and 10318. My fault for concentrating too much on the last three numbers, sorry.

 

[fgwrich]

Unsure if it's been asked yet, but with TFW taking on the ex GC vehicles, will that mean that the entire Mk4 / DVT fleet will be repainted into TFW White / Black / Red, as opposed to leaving the original vehicles in their (somewhat worn) ex VTEC livery?