Ex SouthEastern Cl. 508s

[BlythPower]

Anyone know why they're starting to be moved from storage in Donnington back down to Eastleigh? Two more moving today (making a total of four) reported on the WNXX forum.

 

[Smudger105e]

Didn't know South Eastern ever had 508's, though they were all limited to Womble territory.

 

[BlythPower]

For a while they had batch of twelve which Merseyrail had given up on. They've been in store in the wilds of Shropshire for some time now.

 

[millemille]

Didn't know South Eastern ever had 508's, though they were all limited to Womble territory.

They had a dozen that were based at Gillingham and ran out to Deliverance Island (Isle of Sheppy) and trundled up and down from Strood down to Maidstone Barracks.

 

[tom1649]

It's looking increasingly unlikely that these will ever see service again. Not sure why they're being kept. Maybe for a rainy day.

 

[colchesterken]

I think they should have used them on Brighton coastway services and Lymington
and let the 25kv 313 go to where they could be better used

I wish I was the fat controller I would organise the railways better then them

 

[55003]

I had the misfortune to spend many unhappy hours commuting to gatwick in them.Freezing in the winter boiling in the summet and often having to wait for the ticket seller to walk the length of the train to open the doors.Scrap the. Lot!

 

[yorksrob]

It seems a shame that something can't be made of them.

But then again, they always looked pretty tawdry and unappealing from a slammer passing through Tonbridge.

 

[tom1649]

How can they really be that much worse than the 313s or any of the other PEP derivatives still happily running around? Have they just been really badly maintained over the years? Or were they built to a lower specification than the others?

 

[yorksrob]

Well, they really didn't look appealing in that disgusting connex grey livery. That's probably it for me - and the fact that at the time, I wasn't a big PEP derivative fan. (I've come to appreciate their characteristics more since commuting on the 150's which have similar interiors).

 

[colchesterken]

Have I got this one wrong but I thought they were a D C version of the 313 ,315 series if so why are they working well, and in the case of the 315s till crossrail takes over
and the 508 considered unsucessful, anything a quick refurb would not sort out?

 

[MCR247]

I think they should have used them on Brighton coastway services and Lymington
and let the 25kv 313 go to where they could be better used

I wish I was the fat controller I would organise the railways better then them

They are apparently in appalling mechanical condition (well some)

 

[466.networkers]

They are apparently in appalling mechanical condition (well some)

The exact reason why SET got rid of them when they did in December 2006 ...

508/2s were making a Notworker look uber reliable ...

 

[Ministry]

They are apparently in appalling mechanical condition (well some)

It's quite shameful that they haven't been maintained properly. I used the SE 508s on a few occassions and, while they weren't the most comfortable units around, they were fit enough for purpose (with the possible exception of their use on longer distance workings into London).

SE seem to treat their rolling stock badly in comparison to Southern - given the impressive overhaul that the 313s have had for service on the Coastway lines it'd be nice to see the 508s receive similar treatment and get put back into service instead of sending a usable group of vehicles to the scrapyard or leaving them to rot (with the 460s).

 

[millemille]

The exact reason why SET got rid of them when they did in December 2006 ...

508/2s were making a Notworker look uber reliable ...

Don't think it's the EXACT reason why the 508's went. The 376 fleet was on line, freeing up Networker's. The 508 fleet was a small sub fleet within LSER's portfolio that sucked up a dispassionate amount of finance and resources for what it delivered. Hand the 508's back and use "spare" Networker's, directly or indirectly, to repalce the 508's.

It's quite shameful that they haven't been maintained properly.....

SE seem to treat their rolling stock badly in comparison to Southern....

Those are very contentious statements, please quantify them....

 

[Ministry]

Those are very contentious statements, please quantify them....

Well, I'll add the caveat that I'm a regular user of both Southern and SE on a regular basis, but that I can only comment as a passenger / layperson. Proceeding on that basis, in my experience the units that Southern operate are usually clean and appear to be well maintained - the journeys I make with them don't often run with delays due to broken down rolling stock. I have also used the 313s on the Coastway, and I have found them to be well suited to the route, in no small part due to the extensive refurbishment and investment that Southern has put into them (ditto the 442s when pressed into service on the GatEx).

Comparatively, the SE networkers that I travel on tend to have sticky floors from spillages that haven't been cleaned and the interiors on the 375s I've used are starting to show signs of wear and tear. I find that my journeys on SE trains also run into frequent delays due to broken down units along the line. Again, speaking without technical knowledge, it seems a bit odd that the Merseyrail 508s are still running, and Southern can refurb the 313s to a high standard, but the SE 508s are suffering from mechanical failure and are regarded as almost unusable (according to previous postings in this thread at any rate).

 

[klewer]

Totally agree with the above - Southern should have given the 508's a full (above and below solebar) overhaul and refurb and put those to use on the Coastway. This would have freed up those 313 units for FCC.

Are the ex-Silverlink 508 units also stored? These didn't seem as unreliable as SouthEastern's units so maybe it was down to maintenance..

 

[tom1649]

Totally agree with the above - Southern should have given the 508's a full (above and below solebar) overhaul and refurb and put those to use on the Coastway. This would have freed up those 313 units for FCC.

Are the ex-Silverlink 508 units also stored? These didn't seem as unreliable as SouthEastern's units so maybe it was down to maintenance..

I agree, it seems short sighted to use dual voltage units on third rail only, when there are third rail only units of the same type which could have been refurbished to the same standard.

The three ex-Silverlink 508s are stored at Eastleigh apparently.

I can't really understand why they were declared surplus to Merseyrail requirements in the mid-1990s anyway. Were passenger numbers on the system really falling? I find it hard to believe. They now have the situation where they can't strengthen all peak hour services to 6 cars.

 

[MCR247]

Why is it short sighted to use more reliable units than unreliable units?!

 

[Fincra5]

Why is it short sighted to use more reliable units than unreliable units?!

Agreed. There is a reason Southern took the 313s, no doubt they were offered some 508s.

 

[tom1649]

Why is it short sighted to use more reliable units than unreliable units?!

Well they would have been overhauled wouldn't they? The 313s are actually older than the 508s. They have identical traction motors and other equipment. They spent several years out of service at Merseyrail, so will have clocked up less mileage. There is no logical reason why the 508s can't be made to be as reliable as the 313s. I stand by what I said. They are only 32 years old, the oldest 101s were 47 years old when they were taken out of service and they were DMUs which have a supposedly shorter lifespan than EMUs.

 

[MCR247]

Well they would have been overhauled wouldn't they? The 313s are actually older than the 508s. They have identical traction motors and other equipment. They spent several years out of service at Merseyrail, so will have clocked up less mileage. There is no logical reason why the 508s can't be made to be as reliable as the 313s. I stand by what I said. They are only 32 years old, the oldest 101s were 47 years old when they were taken out of service and they were DMUs which have a supposedly shorter lifespan than EMUs.

I don't quite see how most of that is relevant at all.

101s were in service for 47 years. Cool story.

The 508s are f*****, so why would you take them over 313s which are in better condition?

The fact that they share parts is completely irrelevant, one type can still be in bad condition!

Also, have you looked at the fact that there are 12 508/3s and 19 313s with Southern? Doesn't quite work does it? Even with an extra 3(?) LO 508s

 

[87015]

Still a poor show they are in store when there are a lot of services out of whatever SR terminal you wish to choose are full and standing in the peak formed of four coaches vice six or eight due to 'lack of stock'. Even if you only used ten out of the fifteen and kept them in pairs, five pairs of 508s could replace five single 455s wkgs then used to strengthen others so thats ten trains strengthened and a lot more extra seats provided.

Ps can/could they work in multi with 455s/456s?

 

[tom1649]

I don't quite see how most of that is relevant at all.

101s were in service for 47 years. Cool story.

The 508s are f*****, so why would you take them over 313s which are in better condition?

The fact that they share parts is completely irrelevant, one type can still be in bad condition!

Also, have you looked at the fact that there are 12 508/3s and 19 313s with Southern? Doesn't quite work does it? Even with an extra 3(?) LO 508s

OK, I know when I'm beaten.

 

[tbtc]

The 508s are f*****, so why would you take them over 313s which are in better condition?

I don't think you can blame Southern for taking the better option.

However, it does show a problem with the railway overall, that we are in this position where a dozen EMUs have been allowed to get into such a bad state that they are basically written off whilst we have DMUs running on wholly electrified lines plus a lot of EMU services lacking capacity.

For all that we complain about DFT micro managing, I think that this is an example of where some "centralised" organisation would be a good thing.

Okay, its too late now, and we are arguing over spilt milk (it'd probably be cheaper/ better in the long run just to tag on a dozen new EMUs to the next batch ordered than try to squeeze some more life from knackered '70s units), but I hope that this example doesn't happen again with the 460s etc - units going into long term storage whilst other lines suffer...

 

[hmp455]

SWT could use the TSOs from the spare 508, refurbish them to their 455 counterpart standard and use them to lengthen the 455/7s to 5-car, so that they can run as 10-car units.

A bit off-topic: Will SWT get newer trains for suburban work or not? (just wondering)

 

[MCR247]

To replace 455s? Nothings planned

 

[fgwrich]

Dont forget though, that one of the other reasons as to why Southeastern got shot of the 508s was not just because they were knackerd, but because the London Bridge to Tonbridge Wells services they worked was transferd over to Southern - so along with the 376 / Notworker cascade and reliability issuses, there days with Southeastern were becomming pretty numberd...

 

[Fincra5]

Still a poor show they are in store when there are a lot of services out of whatever SR terminal you wish to choose are full and standing in the peak formed of four coaches vice six or eight due to 'lack of stock'. Even if you only used ten out of the fifteen and kept them in pairs, five pairs of 508s could replace five single 455s wkgs then used to strengthen others so thats ten trains strengthened and a lot more extra seats provided.

Ps can/could they work in multi with 455s/456s?

Lack of stock is 99% of the time due to a train fault. 508s cannot work with 455s or 456s. Would seem pointless to have a class that only works with 11 other units. IF it breaks down, chaos.

 

[MCR247]

Other TOCs seem to manage, and they'd make it work if they were desperate enough