Extending ENCTS after 9.30am to trains.

[Vespa]

At present you can travel outside your local authority area for travel on local buses after 9.30am.

What's to stop this being extended to trains after 9.30 ?

 

[JonathanH]

What's to stop this being extended to trains after 9.30 ?

Funding

(and the fact that we don't have absolute demarcation of local, regional and long distance trains)

Providing free travel by bus to the town centre, or nearest town is one thing. Free rein of the rail system, even if just 'local' services is quite another.

 

[D365]

What’s ENTCS?

 

[JonathanH]

What’s ENTCS?

England national concessionary travel scheme (ENCTS) - free bus pass for people over State Pension Age.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Funding

(and the fact that we don't have absolute demarcation of local, regional and long distance trains)

Providing free travel by bus to the town centre, or nearest town is one thing. Free rein of the rail system, even if just 'local' services is quite another.

I think it would have to be a zonal system like we used to have (but perhaps more thought through, e.g. people in Ormskirk mostly want to go to Liverpool, not Preston). Usage is managed by long bus journeys being unpleasant to most people as things are, but it does cause problems, in particular where bus and rail compete - effectively resulting in double subsidy.

I think I would zonalise the country for it, and give people a pass for a set of zones around their home area covering places which are around 90 minutes by bus (which is probably the most that most people will be willing to do on a normal bus rather than a coach), but including train travel. The same zones could be used for a tourist tax based "leave your car parked up and travel locally for free" arrangement when on holiday, as the Swiss do.

 

[Bevan Price]

At present you can travel outside your local authority area for travel on local buses after 9.30am.

What's to stop this being extended to trains after 9.30 ?

Some "PTE" areas already have that option for travel within the local area - although there is an annual fee (£10, I think) in Greater Manchester if you want to use local off-peak rail travel without further payment.

 

[Starmill]

Local bus travel and local national rail and tram or metro travel for free would be reasonable, based on a regional approach, because it would share the subsidy more evenly and it would be a greater social good because the socially-necccesary travel would be mode-agnostic. The current subsidy leaves some people very poorly catered for indeed, such as residents of West Lancashire whose bus services are dire but the train service between Southport and Wigan isn't so bad, but they're not entitled to a travel benefit on it, just any commercial discounts.

The issue is that currently once people have reached their state pension age they can go from Leeds to Whitby and back on a day trip by bus for free, or someone from Leeds can book a holiday in Torquay and travel across Devon by bus for free, and so on. The above suggestion would remove that benefit, which would be reasonable quid pro quo but people would campaign so vociferously against it that reform would be basically impossible.

Some "PTE" areas already have that option for travel within the local area - although there is an annual fee (£10, I think) in Greater Manchester if you want to use local off-peak rail travel without further payment.

Indeed, and any ENCTS pass can be used on Sheffield Supertram without a supplement.

 

[Vespa]

Indeed, and any ENCTS pass can be used on Sheffield Supertram without a supplement.

Including out of area ENCTS ?

 

[yorksrob]

Well considering that pensioners already have a very good discount on rail via a senior railcard, I'd rather any further largesse were expended on a National Railcard so that all of us "inbetweeners" could obtain sensible fares.

 

[dk1]

I find it unbelievable to see how stroppy some pensioners get when told they have to pay half fare on buses between 08:30 & 09:30 weekdays considering how lucky they are the rest of the time.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Including out of area ENCTS ?

Yes. Any.

Re ENCTS on trains (vs. buses).

I think part of the "problem" is that the entire nation (by which I mean those in charge of purse-strings whether national or local) STILL haven't woken up to the idea that IF we are to do anything to slow or arrest the inexorable rise in personal car use (with the attendant need for more and ever bigger roads, congestion, and so on) we need to recognise {everything that is not car} as a single product offered as an alternative to driving. Now, how that single product looks - including matters of concessionary travel - I'm not attemtping to speculate. But for the moment we continue to have buses and trains seen as entirely separate entities with utterly no co-ordination between them. Yes, there is PlusBus - for what it's worth. But for example, when it comes to the services themselves, nobody seems to want to co-ordinate them. Nobody wants to legislate to allow them to be co-ordinated*. Nope. Because they are two different things, still.

As regards ENCTS then I can see why long distance trains would need to be excluded. There would have to be a limit of some sort; there is, in effect, on buses since "Express" services aren't part of it; only local "stage carriage" services. So by definition we are limited to individual journeys not exceeding around 20 miles in the majority of cases. A few may be longer, but it's a tiny minority.

=============
* by which I mean, again for example,
-- a bus service cannot be specified to connect with a train and wait for it if it's late. For if it does, the bopertator will be penalised for late running
-- in certain obvious places, there could and should be dedicated bus services (with no/few/very limited stops en route) to "complete" a train journey with through ticketing, like Amtrak Thruway - such as Cleethorpes/Grimsby to Hull via Barton (train + train-bus) and then on to anywhere else on the rail network (such as Beverley); or Hull/Bev/Brid to Whitby via Scarborough (train + train-bus) and on to Middlesbrough. I'm sure we can all think of umpteen similar clear examples of rail routes that are incomplete in some way. Not just provided by accident but as a matter of course where applicable.

 

[mangyiscute]

My issue with ENCTS is that I see many well-off older people who definitely don't need a bus pass for bus travel, and yet there are other people who could do with a bus pass who don't have one.
The money spent of giving free train travel could be spent in much better ways imo, such as reducing fares for everyone

 

[PeterC]

Well considering that pensioners already have a very good discount on rail via a senior railcard, I'd rather any further largesse were expended on a National Railcard so that all of us "inbetweeners" could obtain sensible fares.

I would just apply the discount to the ENCTS card and scrap the separate railcard.

 

[Dr Day]

scrap the separate railcard.

The rail industry would then lose out on the income it receives from the sale of railcards. May not be much on a net basis once the costs of actually selling them are factored in, however.

Doesn't Strathclyde offer its senior citizens and others who qualify free local rail (and ferry) travel as well as buses? Scotrail presumably get funded for that at a negotiated rate from the local authorities, so it is a policy that could be reversed if funding dries up, or an acceptable rate cannot be negotiated (despite both sides being public sector).

 

[yorksrob]

I would just apply the discount to the ENCTS card and scrap the separate railcard.

The rail industry would then lose out on the income it receives from the sale of railcards. May not be much on a net basis once the costs of actually selling them are factored in, however.

Doesn't Strathclyde offer its senior citizens and others who qualify free local rail (and ferry) travel as well as buses? Scotrail presumably get funded for that at a negotiated rate from the local authorities, so it is a policy that could be reversed if funding dries up, or an acceptable rate cannot be negotiated (despite both sides being public sector).

Not only that, wouldn't the industry lose the two thirds of the fare not covered by the discount as well ?

(And those of us "inbetweeners" would still get diddly squat).

 

[JamesT]

The rail industry would then lose out on the income it receives from the sale of railcards. May not be much on a net basis once the costs of actually selling them are factored in, however.

Doesn't Strathclyde offer its senior citizens and others who qualify free local rail (and ferry) travel as well as buses? Scotrail presumably get funded for that at a negotiated rate from the local authorities, so it is a policy that could be reversed if funding dries up, or an acceptable rate cannot be negotiated (despite both sides being public sector).

It's not quite free travel according to https://www.spt.co.uk/tickets/concessions/ but still pretty cheap.
I'm aware that Fife has a similar scheme of £1 for single offpeak journeys within Fife. So lots of tickets to Inverkeithing then a non-concessionary ticket further afield.

 

[JonathanH]

The money spent of giving free train travel could be spent in much better ways imo, such as reducing fares for everyone

Wouldn't lots of well-off people benefit from that as well?

(And those of us "inbetweeners" would still get diddly squat).

The upshot of the arrangements at present is that you are getting closer every day to not being an "inbetweener".

 

[aavm]

Really excellent idea. Give something back for all the taxes the elderly have paid subsidising the railways over the years.

I don't think it would replace much car use (still going to need a car to go to the supermarket, or if you need it at your destination), but it would mean the elderly get out a lot more, which would combat the isolation a lot of them suffer from.

In you live in London, you get this on both TFL and rail (just within London) from age 60.

@Vespa might be worth changing the title from ENCTS to 'bus pass' to make it clearer.

 

[JonathanH]

I don't think it would replace much car use (still going to need a car to go to the supermarket, or if you need it at your destination), but it would mean the elderly get out a lot more, which would combat the isolation a lot of them suffer from.

That is what the bus pass already does, but isn't isolation more something that comes when the elderly become frail and not readily able to use public transport, rather than in the early years post work when they are still active.

I get that there are a few places where the bus service to the next town is non existent because there is a train, but in reality, free travel by train should only be on a very local basis - eg to the next town where there is no credible bus service.

 

[Dr Day]

Certainly a few years ago various rural rail lines in Wales had low or possibly even free concessionary travel for local senior/qualifying people. On some routes eg Heart of Wales I believe it was seasonal. Either way funded by the local authority, rather than the TOC or central government.

 

[yorksrob]

The upshot of the arrangements at present is that you are getting closer every day to not being an "inbetweener".

Whoop-de-doo.

 

[Vespa]

@Vespa might be worth changing the title from ENCTS to 'bus pass' to make it clearer.

Bus pass would be inaccurate as ENCTS covers all mode of transport within a council area, take Merseyside for example it covers bus, trains and ferry all times, London covers tube, Elizabeth line all times and mainline trains after 9.30am within Greater London boundary.

But I do take your point.

 

[PeterC]

Not only that, wouldn't the industry lose the two thirds of the fare not covered by the discount as well ?

(And those of us "inbetweeners" would still get diddly squat).

I was not suggesting free rail travel. I was suggesting that a pensioners bus pass automatically becomes a senior railcard.

 

[mangyiscute]

Wouldn't lots of well-off people benefit from that as well?

But should we choose to benefit old people, or everyone? At the end of the day we all know that the tories are never ever gonna introduce something like this that requires more spending, and most of the old vote for the tories anyway so there can't be too much want for this sort of thing

Really excellent idea. Give something back for all the taxes the elderly have paid subsidising the railways over the years.

Because obviously all of those taxes you paid have not been continuously being used to support your life over the past 65 (or whatever) years - i'm guessing you've never taken a train, taken a bus, been through education, received any sort of public medical help, driven down a road, walked along a pavement

 

[JonathanH]

But should we choose to benefit old people, or everyone?

Arguably we should benefit those who have lower incomes, regardless of how old they are, while still getting the better off to pay for things at the full rate.

 

[mangyiscute]

Arguably we should benefit those who have lower incomes, regardless of how old they are, while still getting the better off to pay for things at the full rate.

I think most would agree with this, but it can be very difficult to judge who is "better off". However, I would personally be very behind scrapping the ENCTS and replacing it with providing free bus travel for all of those determined to be less well off by some scale (what that is is for others to figure out)

 

[AM9]

My issue with ENCTS is that I see many well-off older people who definitely don't need a bus pass for bus travel, and yet there are other people who could do with a bus pass who don't have one.
The money spent of giving free train travel could be spent in much better ways imo, such as reducing fares for everyone

This oft-repeated view is in some ways flawed. It's naïve to assume that they will just pay the fares, - older 'well-off' people will just get their cars out, increasing road congestion. Many of the older 'well-off' people are effectively beyond their safe-driving years but persist in driving, so at best, they will be more hesitant, slowing traffic down and resulting in younger drivers getting impatient, at worst, they will be involved in actual collisions - possibly killing or seriously injuring pedestrians and other road users.

 

[Vespa]

I was not suggesting free rail travel. I was suggesting that a pensioners bus pass automatically becomes a senior railcard.

Disabled people do get ENCTS as well.

 

[yorksrob]

I was not suggesting free rail travel. I was suggesting that a pensioners bus pass automatically becomes a senior railcard.

Why ? As I say, pensioners already have access to a very good discount scheme. They need to be concentrating on the section of the population that's not covered.

 

[lachlan]

Disabled people do get ENCTS as well.

Indeed, and in Scotland you can get free bus and train travel acros the whole country