Fare evasion scalated to court and I was completly unaware of this. Help to prepare for court with no money?

[skyhigh]

. I believe this makes me qualify for https://www.gov.uk/get-help-with-court-fees which could be of help for paying the a part of the total future fine, right?

No, that's for if you have to take someone to court yourself, not for help paying the fine received as a result of a criminal conviction.

 

[hogroast61]

No, that's for if you have to take someone to court yourself, not for help paying the fine received as a result of a criminal conviction.

Well, that's upsetting but thanks. This whole situation makes me wonder: I can pay the fine but it'd just be detrimental for me. What happens with the people who don't even have the money to pay a fine? They just go to jail?

 

[Titfield]

Well, that's upsetting but thanks. This whole situation makes me wonder: I can pay the fine but it'd just be detrimental for me. What happens with the people who don't even have the money to pay a fine? They just go to jail?

No you do not got to jail for not being able to pay a fine. However you will be expected to pay off the fine even if by very small amounts over a period of time.

I have to say some of your statements do seem odd. "I can pay the fine but it'd just be detrimental for me" - what do you mean?

The whole point of a fine is that it does put some form of imposition on you to discourage you from doing the same thing again.

 

[WesternLancer]

Well, that's upsetting but thanks. This whole situation makes me wonder: I can pay the fine but it'd just be detrimental for me. What happens with the people who don't even have the money to pay a fine? They just go to jail?

I think they have to agree to a payment plan with the court to pay it by instalments, or the courts bailiffs come after them for the sum, or potentially, and ultimately, I think prison can be an option for non payment of the debt to a court*. Not sure how often that happens in reality.

* edit I see @Titfield has replied with info which may be more accurate than mine!

 

[Titfield]

I think they have to agree to a payment plan with the court to pay it by instalments, or the courts bailiffs come after them for the sum, or potentially, and ultimately, I think prison can be an option for non payment of the debt. Not sure how often that happens in reality.

Only in exceptional circumstances and when it has been proven the person has the means to pay but makes a conscious decision not to pay knowing of the consequences.
I do not know the system fully but I would have concerns that if Bailiffs get involved then their fees will be added to the "debt" and the amouint owing will go up by hundreds of pounds. IMHO plead guilty and pay the fine agreeing to an installment plan if at all possible.

I think the OP has to weigh up pleading not guilty so they can have their say in court, then in all probability being found guilty and losing the financial benefit of an early guilty plea, versus pleading guilty and getting the benefit of the early plea discount.

I doubt that a magistrate is going to have the willingness to try and understand the "21 day" problem and side with the OP.

 

[island]

What if I choose to plead not guilty? I guess I'd be found guilty anyways (because for whatever reason it was I still didn't have a valid ticket)

Correct. The offence you've been convicted of is what is called a "strict liability offence", meaning that the prosecutor (TfL) only needs to show that you were in a compulsory ticket area and didn't have a valid ticket. They don't need to show you intended to evade the fare. Whilst I don't know what exact evidence they have, it's likely there is enough for you to be found guilty.

but, is there a chance for the judge to cancel the whole thing due to my income and the whole appeal situation even though I committed the offence?

The magistrates would not have the power to "cancel the whole thing". Your income is already taken into account in the setting of the fine. The "whole appeal situation" is just your word against theirs.

The magistrates do have the power to give a lesser punishment than a fine, known as a discharge. This would usually be a conditional discharge, in other words you receive no fine on condition that you don't break the law again within a defined period such as 12 months, or an absolute discharge meaning you receive no punishment at all. You can address them in court after you are convicted and ask them to issue one of these discharges. You will have to give a good reason why.

The problem however is, if you're trying to reduce the amount you have to pay, a discharge won't actually do much for that. Costs and compensation, which are the bulk of what you have to pay, are still payable if you get a discharge. And a surcharge is still payable if you get a conditional discharge. All you would knock off is the £40 fine.

Are they not going to question me about the oyster? It hasn't been used since this incident I believe. I actually don't think I even know where it is.

If you plead not guilty, the prosecution or the legal advisor might question you about the Oyster card, but they are unlikely to go into detail about how you came into possession of it unless you bring the matter up. As far as the Prosecution is concerned you just didn't touch in.

I don't receive benefits. My weekly income is not really stable, at the moment I'm getting paid around 60-90£ a month which is enough to eat. I have 4,309£ in savings which will cover my rent until big money comes in from the scholarship.

You'll be expected to use this money to pay any fine, compensation, surcharge, and costs.

I believe this makes me qualify for https://www.gov.uk/get-help-with-court-fees which could be of help for paying the a part of the total future fine, right?

This page you have found is irrelevant; it only applies to civil cases not criminal. Put it out of your mind.

Let me make sure I get this right. So I might be judged right there, next "court appointment" and there's no need for TFL to be there I plead guilty.

If I plead not guilty an actual hearing (?) will be held, where TFL will be there and acuse me of not having a valid ticket and will "bring proof" of that, and then I'll defend myself from the accusations explaining the situation and why I didn't have a valid ticket right?

I already answered this question in post 29.

But if I plead guilty, can I still explain the situation? With situation I mean not only my income and personal economy but also how I got the fine itself because of human mistake and why I didn't pay it before because the contradictions from IRCAS. It just doesn't make any sense to me that in the fine itself and their webpage it says 21 days AFTER and they kept saying to me 21 DAYS FROM. It's 1 day difference, 1 day that is right when I appealed. I still believe this is unfair and I deserve some kind of clarification. If they had clarified I'd have paid, I said this in an email to them. I don't know what The Law would think of all of this obviously.

You can "explain the situation" as much as you like, but the court is unlikely to care. They deal with hundreds of cases a week, and they hear all kinds of reasons like this. Put simply, you could have made this all go away by paying the £80 last May. It will at most go to mitigating the fine by taking another 10 or 20 pounds off it. You won't be able to wave your appeal around as a reason why everything should go away.

 

[Puffing Devil]

You can "explain the situation" as much as you like, but the court is unlikely to care. They deal with hundreds of cases a week, and they hear all kinds of reasons like this. Put simply, you could have made this all go away by paying the £80 last May. It will at most go to mitigating the fine by taking another 10 or 20 pounds off it. You won't be able to wave your appeal around as a reason why everything should go away.

Or worse still, £40 if paid promptly.

To the OP - Bluntly, you have failed to touch in/out properly. This is a Strict Liability matter, for which you have shown no statutory defence - such as a broken machine. Through your own lack of prompt action, the penalty has gone from £40 to £80 to a court case with associated charges and a criminal record. You've been well advised to attend court, plead guilty and pay the fine, costs, compensation and surcharges properly imposed. This is one to chalk up to experience.

Don't be surprised if the court sees your savings on the means form and requests full payment within 28 days. Misrepresenting your savings and income on the means form is an offence, just in case you're tempted.

 

[hogroast61]

No you do not got to jail for not being able to pay a fine. However you will be expected to pay off the fine even if by very small amounts over a period of time.

I have to say some of your statements do seem odd. "I can pay the fine but it'd just be detrimental for me" - what do you mean?

The whole point of a fine is that it does put some form of imposition on you to discourage you from doing the same thing again.

Okay, that makes sense. For what I've seen the minimun court allows people to pay is £5 a week, which is still £20 pounds a month though. I don't think I need to explain why or give details on my personal life but "I can pay the fine [in one payment] but it'd just be detrimental for me" means I have been living/live in a very precarious situation and on a extremely organized budget to be able to make it to the end of the month. I have the money to pay for the fine, paying for the fine means I'd have to earn/obtain the money back somehow to be able to pay rent in a couple of months time, I am unsure if I'll be able to do this. I think this is quite detrimental. I can pay the fine in installments and I'm happy to do so/have always been but specially now that I have more money that what I used to when I received the fine. But well, I don't want to make the focus on my life and my financial situaton and would appreciate if we kept the topic to providing me guidance in the court procedure, what is the best thing for me to do to fix this situaton and get as little damaged as possible so I can just go keep doing my thing that is living. I do wonder what happens to people that don't have a house nor saving and have to pay a fine but well, it's not my case so it's irrelevant, I don't want to sidetrack from the main topic or this threat is going to get too long.

I doubt that a magistrate is going to have the willingness to try and understand the "21 day" problem and side with the OP.

Yeah that's what I think too. I never had any issues with the law, I have actually never even had to talk to a police officer nor they had to talk to me, I am completly unaware of how understanding people that "just follow rules" are, but I imagine that not too much. For things I've read before my understanding is: Here it says you have to pay if you don't have a valid ticket (and they caught you obv), did you had a valid ticket? No. Well, then you have to pay. It doesn't matter what the reason for not having it is. You tried to appeal? Well, they denided it. So you'll have to pay. I feel the appeal thing is way over now anyways right? They took me to court so now it's about the actual offense and what happened in the meantime is not even relevant?

Whilst I don't know what exact evidence they have, it's likely there is enough for you to be found guilty.

All that I think they can use as evidente is the reader the ticket revisor used? Or his testimony? If they bring him in by any chance (I don't even know if its possibly) it actually could be beneficial for me? After he fined me I asked him what I should do if I dind't have the money to pay for the fine and he was extremely apologetic, we ended up having a chat and he showed me how to apppeal, gave me advice and kept apologizing. Maybe he will just say I was there, I cheked and there was no ticket. Who knows. If they use as evidence the oyster card they're going to find a trip from Unknown to Kentish Town West at a maximun fare, £6 maybe? whatever the ammount is in the overground.

The magistrates do have the power to give a lesser punishment than a fine, known as a discharge. This would usually be a conditional discharge, in other words you receive no fine on condition that you don't break the law again within a defined period such as 12 months, or an absolute discharge meaning you receive no punishment at all. You can address them in court after you are convicted and ask them to issue one of these discharges. You will have to give a good reason why.

The problem however is, if you're trying to reduce the amount you have to pay, a discharge won't actually do much for that. Costs and compensation, which are the bulk of what you have to pay, are still payable if you get a discharge. And a surcharge is still payable if you get a conditional discharge. All you would knock off is the £40 fine.

So I can get a discharge even if I plead guilty right? Sorry for needing clarification for the third time. I'd imagine that explaining my situation and showing them my bank statements of all 2023 and maybe written tesmonies from people close to me that know of my situation/knew at the time might be enough? How else could I show that I'm proper broke in an unestable and insecure financial situation? Is that not a good enough reason to ask for a discharge? Someone that has never commited and offense before? £40 off are still £40 off.

Put simply, you could have made this all go away by paying the £80 last May

To the OP - Bluntly, you have failed to touch in/out properly. This is a Strict Liability matter, for which you have shown no statutory defence - such as a broken machine. Through your own lack of prompt action, the penalty has gone from £40 to £80 to a court case with associated charges and a criminal record. You've been well advised to attend court, plead guilty and pay the fine, costs, compensation and surcharges properly imposed. This is one to chalk up to experience.

Noted, next time I'll summon the leprechaun see if he doesn't mind sparing £80 to help me pay the fine. Please let's not get into what I should have done or not. I've said I didn't have any money. I don't need to present the context, there's no point on discussing things in the past. I came to this forum trying to get help with *this* situation that I am *right now* since I found myself with no way to access "inmediate" legal advice and I felt hopeless. Explaining the context is necessary to understand how I got to this point but I beg to keep the focus on the Here and Now. I'll get enough judgement in court as I've said before. Thank you.

Don't be surprised if the court sees your savings on the means form and requests full payment within 28 days. Misrepresenting your savings and income on the means form is an offence, just in case you're tempted.

I am not "tempted" to misrepresent anything because I haven't lied. I ask you to not interact with this threat unless you're providing help please. I'm sorry but I find your whole comment unnecesary.

 

[Darandio]

How else could I show that I'm proper broke? Is that not a good enough reason to ask for a discharge? Someone that has never commited and offense before? £40 off are still £40 off.

How can you show them you are 'proper broke' if you freely admit to having over £4k available? And in regards to telling people not to reply to you, everything I can see in their replies to you is wholly relevant.

 

[island]

All that I think they can use as evidente is the reader the ticket revisor used? Or his testimony? If they bring him in by any chance (I don't even know if its possibly) it actually could be beneficial for me? After he fined me I asked him what I should do if I dind't have the money to pay for the fine and he was extremely apologetic, we ended up having a chat and he showed me how to apppeal, gave me advice and kept apologizing. Maybe he will just say I was there, I cheked and there was no ticket. Who knows. If they use as evidence the oyster card they're going to find a trip from Unknown to Kentish Town West at a maximun fare, £6 maybe? whatever the ammount is in the overground.

The evidence will be the ticket inspector's statement that they scanned your card and found it was not touched-in.

So I can get a discharge even if I plead guilty right? Sorry for needing clarification for the third time. I'd imagine that explaining my situation and showing them my bank statements of all 2023 and maybe written tesmonies from people close to me that know of my situation/knew at the time might be enough? How else could I show that I'm proper broke? Is that not a good enough reason to ask for a discharge? Someone that has never commited and offense before? £40 off are still £40 off.

It is possible for the magistrates to impose a discharge both if you plead guilty or are convicted after a not guilty plea and a trial. However, you have said you have over £4,000 available to you. That is not "proper broke" by any definition, and I do not see it as remotely likely that this would get you a discharge rather than a fine. What funds you may or may not have had available to you last year is irrelevant.

 

[Puffing Devil]

I am not "tempted" to misrepresent anything because I haven't lied. I ask you to not interact with this threat unless you're providing help please. I'm sorry but I find your whole comment unnecesary.

Fair enough. I wish you well in court.

 

[hogroast61]

It is possible for the magistrates to impose a discharge both if you plead guilty or are convicted after a not guilty plea and a trial. However, you have said you have over £4,000 available to you. That is not "proper broke" by any definition, and I do not see it as remotely likely that this would get you a discharge rather than a fine. What funds you may or may not have had available to you last year is irrelevant.

This message goes to everyone but its related to the message quoted:

Fair enough, having 4k in the bank is indeed not being broke at all, broke wasn't the right word. Thankfully as I've said before I am not anymore. But I still I have no income at the moment and this is the money that I have to live on until I can get more. I can't guarantee how or when this will be (for now). My savings will reduce the longer it takes them to call me to court since I'll have to pay rent. I can't get into more details without revealing personal information which I also don't want to do. I understand that I must be sounding like a prick saying they don't have money when they do but I believe I have my reasons and I won't try to change anyones mind since I don't think it's relevant. I'm just asking for guidance with the court situation as I've said, if you're willing to keep helping me with it, that'd be really appreciated. If not, I understand but please don't interact with the threat. I'd appreaciatte if you wouldn't judge me about this in this threat. I'm asking it nice and respectfully, I don't mind to upset anyone.

I am going to thoroughly read all the answers you've been posting and see if there's anythign unclear still. I greatly appreciate everyone's help and inputs on the topic once again.

 

[island]

All right. I appreciate you being clear on the points. I am trying to assist not judge. But for my part, it has often felt like I've had to say things over and over, and drag information out of you that I need in order to assist. So that works both ways – in return for the lengthy advice we have given, I would ask you to assume good faith. Accusing people of threats and judging you because they are telling you something that's not what you wanted to hear is not acting in good faith and is likely to result in those people who can help you not wanting to do so.

 

[Haywain]

I'm just asking for guidance with the court situation as I've said, if you're willing to keep helping me with it, that'd be really appreciated. If not, I understand but please don't interact with the threat.

Unfortunately, it appears that you only want advice that accords with your views, and not that which is coming from people with experience of court procedures. As this is a public forum you will have to choose what to read, rather than try and control who can or cannot post here.

 

[hogroast61]

All right. I appreciate you being clear on the points. I am trying to assist not judge. But for my part, it has often felt like I've had to say things over and over, and drag information out of you that I need in order to assist. So that works both ways – in return for the lengthy advice we have given, I would ask you to assume good faith. Accusing people of threats and judging you because they are telling you something that's not what you wanted to hear is not acting in good faith and is likely to result in those people who can help you not wanting to do so.

Thank you for the understanding. It is true that I've asked for the same information to be reprhased in different occasions, sometimes I don't fully understand what it's said and I need rephrasing, I very appreciate you doing so and taking the time. I also have tried to be as helpful as possible in order to receive assistance, I apologize if I haven't provided the information needed from the very beginning. I understand what you're saying and why they made the comments, I think it's fair to think so based on what I've said, I'm just asking to not focus on that because I can't explain it without disclosing too deep into what my life has been like for the past 3 years.

So my understanding of how I should proceed is: go to the court when they contact me because of the statutory declaration, plead guilty and expain my financial situaton hoping for the fine to be reduced or discharged right? and that is my most favorable option. Pleading not guilty even though it was a "human mistake" is not going to go anywhere because under the law I still commited the offense and most likely I'll be convicted guilty anyways. You can just confirm this information is correct.

A new question I'm wondering: If I were to plead not guilty where would the hearing most likely be held? In the same place than the first court I missed? Or in the one I've made the statutory declaration at? Or possibly a third one?

 

[skyhigh]

expain my financial situaton hoping for the fine to be reduced or discharged right?

Just to be clear, if given a discharge all that will happen is that the fine you are made to pay is reduced by £40 or so. You won't be given no financial penalty.

Pleading not guilty even though it was a "human mistake" is not going to go anywhere because under the law I still commited the offense and most likely I'll be convicted guilty anyways.

Correct.

A new question I'm wondering: If I were to plead not guilty where would the hearing most likely be held? In the same place than the first court I missed? Or in the one I've made the statutory declaration at? Or possibly a third one?

If the prosecutor is present when you make the declaration, they will proceed there and then. If not, it will be scheduled for a future hearing.

 

[island]

And that future hearing could be at the same court or a different one.

 

[hogroast61]

Just to be clear, if given a discharge all that will happen is that the fine you are made to pay is reduced by £40 or so. You won't be given no financial penalty.

I understand and that is fine.

You best hope is that TfL revert to the point where they issued you with the "fine", and you take it from there. Have you got the original documentation related to that penalty? Please upload it with personal details obscured, in order that experts here can give further advice.

I asked this before but it was never addressed, is there a point in contacting them now? No right?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

is there a point in contacting [TfL] now? No right?

For the moment, there's no point. At the moment, your argument is with the court system, who want to be paid their fine (and other costs). And while this started with you not paying a 'fine' to TfL, my expectation would be that from their point of view they are very unlikely to withdraw the prosecution - so contacting them won't change anything.

 

[hogroast61]

For the moment, there's no point. At the moment, your argument is with the court system, who want to be paid their fine (and other costs). And while this started with you not paying a 'fine' to TfL, my expectation would be that from their point of view they are very unlikely to withdraw the prosecution - so contacting them won't change anything.

Yeah that's exactly what I thought but I wanted someone else to clarify it.

Thank you very much everyone, I am very grateful for everyones advice and I really appreciate that you took the time to reply to all my questions. I was very stressed and hopeless when this situation arised, now I have some kind of guidance on what to do and what my options are which has eased my concerns a lot. I will still try to get ahold of citizens advice but I'm super grateful for everyones help! Peace and love for each and everyone.

 

[Mountain Man]

Noted, next time I'll summon the leprechaun see if he doesn't mind sparing £80 to help me pay the fine.

Might I suggest that sarcasm is not the best approach when you are asking people for help