Fare Evasion - Sydenham - 13/12/2023

[simonw]

I'm surprised though the evasion isn't logged for inspector teams to target repeat offenders same time every day style. I agree and said it before that the staff appear totally disinterested at dealing with evaders and yet will happily pounce on a granny making a ticketing mistake

Uninterested not disinterested.

It's a pity the forum doesn't employ grammar police to tackle repeat offenders.

 

[800001]

It's quite difficult not to when you witness how staff can so blatantly ignore someone committing criminal activity and remain in their roles.

Read people’s replies above!

Would you go and challenge someone commuting a criminal act on your own?

What may that person do? Knife potentially, violence, spit at you etc!

They have no intention of paying for a fare, what likely hood is there of them politely paying a fare when challenged.

The station staff may of logged it with btp, with there control, who knows as we don’t.

It has nothing what ever to do with unions.

 

[skyhigh]

It's quite difficult not to when you witness how staff can so blatantly ignore someone committing criminal activity and remain in their roles.

So what exactly do Aslef have to do with staffing ticket barriers?

 

[MagisterLudi]

So what exactly do Aslef have to do with staffing ticket barriers?

If fare evasion didn't just go for low hanging fruit, there might be more revenue generated.

Read people’s replies above!

Would you go and challenge someone commuting a criminal act on your own?

What may that person do? Knife potentially, violence, spit at you etc!

They have no intention of paying for a fare, what likely hood is there of them politely paying a fare when challenged.

The station staff may of logged it with btp, with there control, who knows as we don’t.

It has nothing what ever to do with unions.

I have in the past, yes, when tailgating me through barriers. I logged it with BTP because I knew station staff wouldn't - which happens every time I point it out at the station.

 

[glasgowniteowl]

It's quite difficult not to when you witness how staff can so blatantly ignore someone committing criminal activity and remain in their roles.

So do you think the train he boarded should have been held at the station and not departed until btp arrived?

How would you see the escalation process going in dealing with said individual? If staff spoke to him and still refusing what should have happened next, and please follow it through as if he keeps on refusing what should the ultimate end be in your opinion?

 

[Bluejays]

In the spirit of this post, a "What if?" ...

What if all or some (senior?) gateline / frontline staff were "skilled up", paid accordingly, trained in dealing with confrontation, and qualified for an SIA license? Could we then go after the barrier jumpers/pushers? Or is it still "too dangerous"? (Open question)

It could certainly be an idea worth going for I'd say. Although, Personally I'd probably prefer specialised teams that acted on intelligence from stations and moved around.

Where I think you have absolutely hit the nail on the head though is the fact that you're talking about training and skilling up. Getting into conflict situations, with the additional burden of having to get money out of the individual concerned requires, in my opinion training, procedures published by your company so that you know what you're working to and to know that you have backup.

I absolutely 100% believe that the railway industry needs to be going after these kind of people. Where I differ from the op is that i think it needs the industry as a whole to take it seriously, rather than just laying into barrier staff for not being Rambo .

 

[MagisterLudi]

Uninterested not disinterested.

It's a pity the forum doesn't employ grammar police to tackle repeat offenders.

Though there would be the possibility of "motivated by personal advantage" for the member of staff in not engaging the offender, hence disinterested is valid. It's a shame pedants don't necessarily check all the ways a word can be used.

So do you think the train he boarded should have been held at the station and not departed until btp arrived?

How would you see the escalation process going in dealing with said individual? If staff spoke to him and still refusing what should have happened next, and please follow it through as if he keeps on refusing what should the ultimate end be in your opinion?

There was approximately a 5 minute period between him going through the barriers and the train he boarded arriving. 3 minutes between him arriving on the station and the next train arriving. More than sufficient time to engage.

Far more likely to be agency than unionised, you might want to move that claim to moves aimed at reducing union influence.

Wearing fully branded TFL clothing.

 

[Bluejays]

If fare evasion didn't just go for low hanging fruit, there might be more revenue generated.

If you're correct about the industry going for low hanging fruit (as I've said, I agree with you on this point), surely the reason they do that is because it's more lucrative than going after the kind of people who push through the barriers. I do think the out and out evaders should be targeted more, and that innocent mistakes should be punished less. But I disagree massively that it would be a more lucrative approach for the industry


Also important to point out, the barrier staff wouldn't be the people who are prosecuting for railcards etc. That would be rpi's. If you had reported someone pushing through the barriers to an RPI and they had dismissed you, then I'd have a very different opinion on the matter.

 

[dangerousdids2]

Many years ago I was confronted by a yobo with a knife in the workplace. Defending myself I hit him round the head with a fire extinguisher!
I got a dismissal for violent misconduct and a criminal record.
All he got was a slap on the wrist for he's first offence (first time he had been caught more like)
So what do you expect railway staff to do about it?
Call the transport police then get a good telling off because the offenders long gone?
Confront the offender and get attacked maybe with no right to defend themselves?
Or lockdown the station and ruin every ones day?
Or just do what anyone else would do and ignore it?

If your so concerned about it next time you could confront them yourself maybe.

We're talking a fare of a few quid here! Compared to how much it would cost to post guards at the station all day. Which they do at the hotspots.

I agree it's not fare sometimes. I myself have been fined on more than one occasion for not having the correct ticket.

There's enough signs and announcements warning passengers to make sure they have the right tickets before traveling.

If you get caught out it's your own fault.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

I totally agree. Revenue enforcement seems in my eyes to be much more setup for penalizing people who have the wrong ticket/railcard, rather than blatant continuous fare evasion, which makes the railway feel unsafe and probably contributes to a lot of the very anti social behaviour.

It seems completely disproportionate to me reading a lot of the stories on this forum of worry and anxiety for in my eyes for often innocent 'fare evasion' like not renewing railcard, then you see tough guys jump over barriers continuously without a care in the world.

What's ironic in my eyes is that many buses are much stricter on fare evasion, if you just jump on a bus you'll often get called back and the bus won't leave until they get off again. This is with 1 member of staff who also has to drive the bus! Whereas on the railway with a whole suite of staff (guards, station staff, RPIs) often nothing is done whatsoever for blatant fare evasion.

But my trains have up to 24 doors, how would I know before I depart who has or hasn't got a ticket? Even identifying a barrier jumper for gateline staff can delay a train massively. Buses are far easier to manage and the driver is behind a protective screen.

In an ideal world, there would be trained protection managers on every gateline, wearing body cams and wanting to do their job to the fullest. The reality is it's often customer service staff who aren't trained in that type of situational conflict and as we see regularly, aren't particularly well trained on ticketing either.

 

[87015]

Wearing fully branded TFL clothing.

Yes, the agency staff do.

 

[MagisterLudi]

Many years ago I was confronted by a yobo with a knife in the workplace. Defending myself I hit him round the head with a fire extinguisher!
I got a dismissal for violent misconduct and a criminal record.
All he got was a slap on the wrist for he's first offence (first time he had been caught more like)
So what do you expect railway staff to do about it?
Call the transport police then get a good telling off because the offenders long gone?
Confront the offender and get attacked maybe with no right to defend themselves?
Or lockdown the station and ruin every ones day?
Or just do what anyone else would do and ignore it?

If your so concerned about it next time you could confront them yourself maybe.

We're talking a fare of a few quid here! Compared to how much it would cost to post guards at the station all day. Which they do at the hotspots.

I agree it's not fare sometimes. I myself have been fined on more than one occasion for not having the correct ticket.

There's enough signs and announcements warning passengers to make sure they have the right tickets before traveling.

If you get caught out it's your own fault.

And there you have it. "Just do what anyone else would and ignore it". If we're only talking about a few quid then maybe you could make that suggestion to the RPIs next time they hammer someone for £100+ over a £1.70 ticket?

The point is this person could have been caught but wasn't due to the actions of multiple staff. The rest of the whataboutery is just that.

Yes, the agency staff do.

Fair enough.

In fact the next time someone posts in the Disputes and Prosecutions section, maybe the forum template response could be amended to:

Welcome to the forum.
In future, to avoid having to post here, just hurtle through the gates and no one will challenge you.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Welcome to the forum.
In future, to avoid having to post here, just hurtle through the gates and no one will challenge you.

Most stations will attempt to stop, if I'm made aware (as I was at Stoke 3 weeks ago), I'm more than happy to deal with them). The behaviour of the passenger is a national issue, the behaviour of station staff and train crew is certainly more sporadic

 

[MagisterLudi]

Most stations will attempt to stop, if I'm made aware (as I was at Stoke 3 weeks ago), I'm more than happy to deal with them). The behaviour of the passenger is a national issue, the behaviour of station staff and train crew is certainly more sporadic

The number of times I have witnessed this at London stations makes me think the problem may be endemic in these particular locations.

 

[Bluejays]

And there you have it. "Just do what anyone else would and ignore it". If we're only talking about a few quid then maybe you could make that suggestion to the RPIs next time they hammer someone for £100+ over a £1.70 ticket?

Did you not see the rest of his post? Or are you purposely ignoring it. This is starting to seem a bit like a wind up.

 

[glasgowniteowl]

There was approximately a 5 minute period between him going through the barriers and the train he boarded arriving. 3 minutes between him arriving on the station and the next train arriving. More than sufficient time to engage

Sorry that's not answering my question at all, if he refused should the train be delayed for btp to arrive

And how would you expect the situation to be escalated if he keeps refusing to pay

 

[dangerousdids2]

And there you have it. "Just do what anyone else would and ignore it". If we're only talking about a few quid then maybe you could make that suggestion to the RPIs next time they hammer someone for £100+ over a £1.70 ticket?

The point is this person could have been caught but wasn't due to the actions of multiple staff. The rest of the whataboutery is just that.


Fair enough.

In fact the next time someone posts in the Disputes and Prosecutions section, maybe the forum template response could be amended to:

Welcome to the forum.
In future, to avoid having to post here, just hurtle through the gates and no one will challenge you.

Yeah meaning you! Did you confront them or just go about you daily business and ignore it?

I got fined not that long ago, I bought a ticket online. Read the instructions saying I need to print my ticket at the station, didn't bother cause I was going to miss my train. Got fined at the other end. Ended up paying for 4 tickets.
Like I said, they make it clear enough.

 

[MagisterLudi]

Did you not see the rest of his post? Or are you purposely ignoring it. This is starting to seem a bit like a wind up.

It's categorically not a wind up and I was struggling to find a cogent or reasonable response to the points. Perhaps you'd like the BTP reference or correspondence I have with Southern online as evidence?

I can only conclude you were at Sydenham when this happened which is why you're happy to suggest it is a wind up.

 

[jon81uk]

Maybe different ticket barriers are needed, full height to stop jumping and double barriers with an "air-lock" to prevent tailgating?

 

[MagisterLudi]

Sorry that's not answering my question at all, if he refused should the train be delayed for btp to arrive

And how would you expect the situation to be escalated if he keeps refusing to pay

Yeah meaning you! Did you confront them or just go about you daily business and ignore it?

I reported it - first question BTP asked was whether I am a member of staff or member of the public. In fact after reporting it to Southern, the station staff and BTP I was advised as follows:

BTP - Inform station staff when you leave the train. We'll attend at Victoria.
Southern - Inform BTP if you can.

Last time I checked I'm not employed by the railway to do the jobs of their staff for them.

 

[jon81uk]

If we're only talking about a few quid then maybe you could make that suggestion to the RPIs next time they hammer someone for £100+ over a £1.70 ticket?

The RPIs are employed to stop people and ensure they have a valid ticket, generally they have training in dealing with confrontation and may have secruity staff or BTP with them. A standard gateline customer service person is not an RPI or there for enforcement.

 

[MagisterLudi]

Sorry that's not answering my question at all, if he refused should the train be delayed for btp to arrive

And how would you expect the situation to be escalated if he keeps refusing to pay

Frankly he should be refused boarding if he does not have proof of payment. In the same way you would on other modes of transport.

 

[glasgowniteowl]

Frankly he should be refused boarding if he does not have proof of payment. In the same way you would on other modes of transport.

So if forces his way on board hold the train till btp arrives?

And again what would you want the escalation process to entail, he refuses and boards anyway, then what? What would you want the chain of events to be?

 

[Bluejays]

It's categorically not a wind up and I was struggling to find a cogent or reasonable response to the points. Perhaps you'd like the BTP reference or correspondence I have with Southern online as evidence?

I'm sorry but I find it quite hard to believe that you're not just out to wind up/bash rail staff.

Quite apart from any moral arguments. You are essentially explicitly demanding that staff go against the rules and procedures that are set down by their employers for how to do their job. If my employer tells me 'do not delay a train because of fare evaders under any circumstances ' then why would I delay a train because of fare evaders.

Let's be very clear. Refusing boarding , and attempting to refuse boarding results in delays

 

[MagisterLudi]

So if forces his way on board hold the train till btp arrives?

And again what would you want the escalation process to entail, he refuses and boards anyway, then what? What would you want the chain of events to be?

That's for the railway to solve - they seem quite effective at holding trains or putting them off at the next station when someone refuses to buy a ticket on board on my usual journey. I'm simply reporting what I saw and the way in which individuals didn't react.

I'm sorry but I find it quite hard to believe that you're not just out to wind up/bash rail staff.

Quite apart from any moral arguments. You are essentially explicitly demanding that staff go against the rules and procedures that are set down by their employers for how to do their job. If my employer tells me 'do not delay a train because of fare evaders under any circumstances ' then why would I delay a train because of fare evaders.

Let's be very clear. Refusing boarding , and attempting to refuse boarding results in delays

I mean the initial thread made it quite clear I was setting out to explain the problem I have with an incident of blatant fare evasion not being prevented (one of many I have seen) and I think I stated fairly early on that juxtaposed with the heavy handed and excessive actions by the railways when it comes to other, more questionable, punishments over tickets it's pretty ridiculous.

If that constitutes "bashing" or "winding up" then it probably says more about the industry than anything else.

 

[glasgowniteowl]

That's for the railway to solve - they seem quite effective at holding trains or putting them off at the next station when someone refuses to buy a ticket on board on my usual journey. I'm simply reporting what I saw and the way in which individuals didn't react.

Maybe the railway already has solved that in a way that it wants and has procedures and advice it gives to staff ie don't attempted anything that may escalate a situation unless btp present, emails to revenue protection giving intelligence on fare evaders don't actually need to be sent immediately, could be done later when station got quieter etc

 

[Bluejays]

That's for the railway to solve - they seem quite effective at holding trains or putting them off at the next station when someone refuses to buy a ticket on board on my usual journey. I'm simply reporting what I saw and the way in which individuals didn't react.


I mean the initial thread made it quite clear I was setting out to explain the problem I have with an incident of blatant fare evasion not being prevented (one of many I have seen) and I think I stated fairly early on that juxtaposed with the heavy handed and excessive actions by the railways when it comes to other, more questionable, punishments over tickets it's pretty ridiculous.

If that constitutes "bashing" or "winding up" then it probably says more about the industry than anything else.

My issue with your posts, as I said earlier, is your refusal to distinguish between 'the railway' as a whole and an individual member of staff.
If you want the railway industry to change , and devote more resources to dealing with aggressive evaders rather than mistake makers then I'm 100% behind you. I'll even join the march and wave a flag .

But you seem to want to lay all the blame for these systemic issues at a fella on the barriers, or at the very least you appear to be suggesting that one individual member could(and should) swim against the tide of their employer and single handedly round up fare evaders

 

[MagisterLudi]

My issue with your posts, as I said earlier, is your refusal to distinguish between 'the railway' as a whole and an individual member of staff.
If you want the railway industry to change , and devote more resources to dealing with aggressive evaders rather than mistake makers then I'm 100% behind you. I'll even join the march and wave a flag .

But you seem to want to lay all the blame for these systemic issues at a fella on the barriers, or at the very least you appear to be suggesting that one individual member could(and should) swim against the tide of their employer and single handedly round up fare evaders

If it was one member of staff then you'd have a point but as numerous posts have indicated, I interacted with a number of staff members at different points and was fobbed off at each point. I also said that it's endemic at a number of stations I have seen and reported this.

Please could you tell me where I am singling out one member of staff?

Maybe the railway already has solved that in a way that it wants and has procedures and advice it gives to staff ie don't attempted anything that may escalate a situation unless btp present, emails to revenue protection giving intelligence on fare evaders don't actually need to be sent immediately, could be done later when station got quieter etc

it's just as well the railway doesn't try to enforce the law then. Oh, wait.

 

[dangerousdids2]

I reported it - first question BTP asked was whether I am a member of staff or member of the public. In fact after reporting it to Southern, the station staff and BTP I was advised as follows:

BTP - Inform station staff when you leave the train. We'll attend at Victoria.
Southern - Inform BTP if you can.

Last time I checked I'm not employed by the railway to do the jobs of their staff for them.

In a perfect world maybe that's true but it's far from perfect.

Platform staff aren't payed to enforce fare dodging, they are payed to man the station, open the barriers when someone's ticket don't work, let people with pushchairs thru the gate. Give customers information.when someone says please sir let me thru, say no.

Let's say that fare dodger does the same thing every other day, they have reported it dozens of times. Yet there he is again! The btp are sick of arriving at Victoria to find hes long gone (again) although it's not actually their job either.
You know they have other stuff to worry about like drug dealers using trains transporting drugs, people carrying weapons, drunks being abusive towards the staff and public.
Endless reports of suspicious looking packages left here there and everywhere.

Don't worry about any of that though ay, some blokes conned the train company out of 30 quid this week and needs to be stopped.

 

[MagisterLudi]

In a perfect world maybe that's true but it's far from perfect.

Platform staff aren't payed to enforce fare dodging, they are payed to man the station, open the barriers when someone's ticket don't work, let people with pushchairs thru the gate. Give customers information.when someone says please sir let me thru, say no.

Let's say that fare dodger does the same thing every other day, they have reported it dozens of times. Yet there he is again! The btp are sick of arriving at Victoria to find hes long gone (again) although it's not actually their job either.
You know they have other stuff to worry about like drug dealers using trains transporting drugs, people carrying weapons, drunks being abusive towards the staff and public.
Endless reports of suspicious looking packages left here there and everywhere.

Don't worry about any of that though ay, some blokes conned the train company out of 30 quid this week and needs to be stopped.

Great. We can add this to the Disputes and Prosecutions template:

Don't worry about the amount you've evaded over the last few years, the railway's got other priorities.