FGW at Paddington still getting evening Off Peak validity spectacularly wrong.

[broadgage]

Whilst I do not consider myself to be a conspiracy theorist, I nonetheless begin to wonder, particularly in light of the recent e-mails, whether this is more than just incompetence, and whether one or more members of gateline staff are acting maliciously in knowingly denying travel to a valid ticket-holder.

If so, this might be considered an misleading commercial practice, an aggressive commercial practice, or even harassment, all of which are criminal offences.

If TOCs, including GWR, can prosecute over honest mistakes and 0p underpayments, it would not seem at all disproportionate for GWR to face prosecution themselves over their own crimes; albeit that I am not advising that bnm pursue a private prosecution at this stage, certainly not without taking formal legal advice.

It would, however, seem reasonable to mention these crimes in any letter of complaint to MPs, or to the DfT, and in any correspondence with GWR management.

Agree, this seems to me to be either gross incompetence or deliberate malice.
For the initial "mistakes" a simple penalty should have been payable each time the mistake was made, not strictly speaking a fine, but a penalty for making a mistake.
If however they keep making the same alleged mistake, then that could suggest that they are deliberately trying to get away with dishonesty, and that legal action could be a remedy.

After all, if a passenger travels beyond the validity of their ticket they will often be liable for a penalty fare, if they persist in so doing, then prosecution is probable.

 

[bnm]

Split tickets. 1st as far as Reading. Standard to my ultimate destination.

Do remember, I could have been Std throughout. Kent to Thames Valley would then be C4 restriction. Same validity as F3.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Do you ever see the DSM telling the gate staff that they have got it wrong?

Tonight no. I told her that the fault lies squarely with management. She said, "That's me".

I let out a little sarcastic laugh.

I then said I'm getting the 1830 after I'd noshed my rapidly cooling BK meal (had planned to eat aboard) and asked her to see that I was cleared through border control. Our paths crossed again at 1825 where I suggested an upgrade throughout. She spoke to TM.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You shouldn't even have to say what the restriction is. If the gate line rejects the ticket, and its origin is not Paddington, it should be straight to "let me look that one up for you".

 

[furlong]

If TOCs, including GWR, can prosecute over honest mistakes and 0p underpayments, it would not seem at all disproportionate for GWR to face prosecution themselves over their own crimes;

Regarding the consumer regulations, I believe it is the ORR that bears the duty to investigate matters reported to it and where appropriate prosecute.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
(Train companies do need to take care - a mis-programmed gateline that rejects valid tickets might itself be portrayed as an illegal aggressive commercial practice. After all these months and complaints, why have the barriers still not been corrected to accept the ticket? Why is there still no prominent notice to attempt to counter this, something like "If you have a vaild ticket that fails to open this barrier, please show it to one of our staff who will allow you through.")

 

[andrewkeith5]

Regarding the consumer regulations, I believe it is the ORR that bears the duty to investigate matters reported to it and where appropriate prosecute.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
(Train companies do need to take care - a mis-programmed gateline that rejects valid tickets might itself be portrayed as an illegal aggressive commercial practice. After all these months and complaints, why have the barriers still not been corrected to accept the ticket? Why is there still no prominent notice to attempt to counter this, something like "If you have a vaild ticket that fails to open this barrier, please show it to one of our staff who will allow you through.")

Pah. I doubt the ORR will prosecute Southern for still not allowing a standard Gatwick to Victoria railcard discounted ticket through the Victoria gate line - even though their customer service manager has repeatedly told me I should be fine!

Really, barriers should only be programmed to reject tickets that the gate line staff can reasonably know to be invalid or that are damaged or in some other way invalid - routing validity clearly cannot be trusted to electronics and gate line staff who at busy stations simply don't have the time to check.

Despite what TOCs and some others might think, I'd still much rather the Train Manager be responsible for ensuring validity of tickets - they have more time in general and are much more likely to have seen wider variances of options. If there is a dispute, then a TIR, UPFN or Penalty Fare should be used depending on the nature of the dispute, with appropriate appeals processes.

 

[RochdalePioneers]

I started the "it's a loophole to GWR" divergence (sorry...). And in essence it is. They have set ticket prices which are essentially a skim job. 175% for First Class is daft, demonstrably so when a fare priced by someone else at a more rational rate allows more travel at better times for less £.

I read with awe RJs adventures with Southeastern and this sounds very familiar - operator decides it is above the rules, insists all its staff claim black is white then get aggressive when challenged. Knowing the gate line staff are wrong and doing nothing about it, hassling the same passenger repeatedly over a long period IS aggression - their skim job has been exposed and they don't like it. Still, profit above passengers, that's the important thing

 

[Wolfie]

Wouldn't it be interesting if the laws against passengers were applied to TOCs and their employees

Occasional mistake, a simple fine [sic] for the TOC, however persistently doing the same thing and you're looking at court action with a possibility of jail and a criminal record.

I have to say that if I was bnm I would, particularly given some of the emails received, be telling the company that this bears all of the hallmarks of harrassment by it or it's agents (staff working for the company are legally exactly that). I would follow by stating that unless things change rapidly legal action may follow - cite Ferguson v British Gas Trading Ltd(2009).

I wonder if DfT, which grants GWR it's franchise, would be happy to added as a party to the case.... I guarantee that even the threat of that, ideally in a letter from an MP to SofS DfT, would generate action!

Whilst I do not consider myself to be a conspiracy theorist, I nonetheless begin to wonder, particularly in light of the recent e-mails, whether this is more than just incompetence, and whether one or more members of gateline staff are acting maliciously in knowingly denying travel to a valid ticket-holder.

If so, this might be considered an misleading commercial practice, an aggressive commercial practice, or even harassment, all of which are criminal offences.

If TOCs, including GWR, can prosecute over honest mistakes and 0p underpayments, it would not seem at all disproportionate for GWR to face prosecution themselves over their own crimes; albeit that I am not advising that bnm pursue a private prosecution at this stage, certainly not without taking formal legal advice.

It would, however, seem reasonable to mention these crimes in any letter of complaint to MPs, or to the DfT, and in any correspondence with GWR management.

Spot on!

I would add that, GWR having spectacularly failed, a letter to Tim O'Toole, Chief Executive of First plc, pointing out the likely damage to his company's public image if/when the media get hold of this story might also yield results. Any negative response from Mr O'Toole should be sent straight to your MP!

The time for playing nice with First, GWR and the Paddington halfwits is over! With respect to the latter I am afraid that if I had been subject to what bnm has put up with I would by this point be accepting nothing less than dismissals. I would make damn sure, by whatever means necessary, that was exactly what happened. If that cost First group millions of pounds and a franchise, well GOOD! Believe me SofS DfT will get VERY fed up if he keeps hearing from an MP over this incompenence/malevolence after every occurrence and that is exactly what would be happening, not to mention facing regular Daily Mail stories; eventually action for breach of franchise would follow.

 

[miami]

I have to say that if I was bnm I would, particularly given some of the emails received, be telling the company that this bears all of the hallmarks of harrassment by it or it's agents (staff working for the company are legally exactly that). I would follow by stating that unless things change rapidly legal action may follow - cite Ferguson v British Gas Trading Ltd(2009).

I wouldn't put much credence into the emails - I think it's more likely to be someone that's aware of it through the internet, and emailed him (I'm assuming on the hotmail address)

That said, there is no benefit to the gateline staff blocking his entry (they don't get a cut of a new ticket sold). Surely it's well known that this happens - there can't be that many staff that it's a new person each time, so why would it be still a problem unless they are deliberately doing it?

The time for playing nice with First, GWR and the Paddington halfwits is over!

I agree in principle, but remember we only have one side of the story.

 

[Agent_c]

I think it's clear that FGW or whatever they're called this week need a quality checking regeme. Put quality auditors on trains with tickets, some valid some not, and see how RPIs, Guards and gate line react. Reports can be fed back to the staff involved.

 

[hounddog]

I think it's clear that FGW or whatever they're called this week need a quality checking regeme. Put quality auditors on trains with tickets, some valid some not, and see how RPIs, Guards and gate line react. Reports can be fed back to the staff involved.

Reports have been fed back to the staff involved ever since this saga started: they just ignore them.

 

[rs101]

Could I suggest wearing a pair of these next time - http://www.amazon.co.uk/Boriyuan-encryption-function-Sunglasses-Recorder-Free/dp/B00D13LUU2 - and post the results on Youtube?

 

[miami]

Could I suggest wearing a pair of these next time - http://www.amazon.co.uk/Boriyuan-encryption-function-Sunglasses-Recorder-Free/dp/B00D13LUU2 - and post the results on Youtube?

I'd strongly recommend against posting the results to youtube!

Perhaps sending the results to FGW management, but even then it sounds like a bad plan.

 

[100andthirty]

Having met and listened to Tim O'Toole speaking on customer service, I believe he would be absolutely appalled both that this happened in the first place and that it continues to happen despite management intervention. I suspect he's also appalled at the sheer complexity of the ticketing system - arguably too complex for the technology that prints the tickets - that is part of the problem.

 

[najaB]

... arguably too complex for the technology that prints the tickets - that is part of the problem.

With respect, it is not. Both the old and new ticket formats include the restriction code - in this case F3. It's relatively easy to go to http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/F3 on any smartphone or tablet device and read what is written there.

If staff aren't willing to either (a) do that; or (b) believe what is written there rather than their own knowledge/tatty piece of paper it wouldn't matter how good the ticket printing technology was.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Tickets issued on trains, like you would get if you travelled from bnm's local station, to this day don't state their restriction code anywhere.

 

[100andthirty]

NajaB. I understand it's easy to look up. I have indeed looked up the F3 code from the link you gave.

Two points in response:

1) it's not clear to me how F3 relates to the issues bnm has so clearly described here - this seems to relate to something in the depths of SE Trains
2) bnm has been at pains to explain that the restriction code isn't printed on the tickets he buys because they are printed on something called an Avantix.

I don't condone "the customer is always wrong" attitude of some staff, but it's really not made easy for them. Compare their tools (or lack of them) with almost anything in retail where the key "code" for any item is a bar code and, for staff, a scanner. Yes, mistakes in retail sometimes happen, but far more rarely than is apparent from these forums.

 

[bnm]

Some TVMs still don't print the restriction code either.

Also, one of my instances last year of denied travel was on a ticket that had C4 printed on it. Nobody on the gateline on that occasion would check the code. I had to obtain a print out from the ticket office.

Things are slowly getting better. The issue that remains is the default position taken by the gateline staff. That default position can still result in missed trains for me, or the potential that other passengers take what they're told as gospel, miss trains or pay an excess.

 

[maniacmartin]

100andthirty, I will try to explain as I understand it:

1) it's not clear to me how F3 relates to the issues bnm has so clearly described here - this seems to relate to something in the depths of SE Trains

The natural route for journey on the ticket involves travel on GWR and also Southeastern. When this happens, one Train Operating Company is designated the Fare Setter of the route and they get to set the price and restrictions for the whole journey, including the bit that is on the other operator's trains. In this case, Southeastern is the Fare Setter. They have decided to use restriction code F3, which restricts travel times on Southeastern trains but doesn't restrict travel time son GWR's trains. It is quite common for time restrictions to only apply to the main operator of a ticket. GWR are free to lobby through internal industry channels if they don't like the arrangement.

2) bnm has been at pains to explain that the restriction code isn't printed on the tickets he buys because they are printed on something called an Avantix.

Avantix is the name for the bulky handheld ticket machine that train guards carry around with them. It's a basic mini computer that can display the restrictions for almost any National Rail ticket on its screen.

...it's really not made easy for them. Compare their tools (or lack of them) with almost anything in retail where the key "code" for any item is a bar code and, for staff, a scanner. Yes, mistakes in retail sometimes happen, but far more rarely than is apparent from these forums.

It is not the passenger's fault if management don't equip their staff with the right tools. In any case, for this specific ticket, they should know it given the amount of briefings that have supposedly been issued, or if they do not know, should look it up

 

[ainsworth74]

1) it's not clear to me how F3 relates to the issues bnm has so clearly described here - this seems to relate to something in the depths of SE Trains

Actually that's sort of the point. The first part of the restriction reads:

Not valid on trains timed to depart after 04:29 and before 10:00, except:

So that's easy enough so far and then we check the exceptions:

• 09:29 and 09:50 from Hastings
• 09:32 and 09:53 from St. Leonards Warrior Square
• 09:56 from West St. Leonards
• 09:42 from Battle
• 09:58 from Wadhurst

So then we consider our passenger at Paddington. Firstly is the passenger at any of the exceptions listed? The answer to that is no they're at Paddington so we ignore all the other named stations. Then we look at the time restriction is the passenger attempting to travel between 0429 and 1000? The answer to that is no they're trying to travel on the 1800 therefore no restriction applies and they can travel.

 

[najaB]

Tickets issued on trains, like you would get if you travelled from bnm's local station, to this day don't state their restriction code anywhere.

That just makes matters worse - since there is no restriction code printed the tickets are, by definition, unrestricted:

10. Tickets valid only in trains of particular Train Companies
The validity of a ticket may:
a) be restricted to;
or b) prohibit travel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies. Any such restriction or prohibition will be shown on the ticket.

12. Restrictions on when you can travel
Restrictions apply to the use of some tickets (including those bought with a Railcard) in addition to/other than those in Condition 10 above such as the dates, days, and times when you can use them, and the trains in which they can be used. These restrictions will be made clear to you by the seller when you buy your ticket.

Since bnm wasn't made aware of restrictions at the time of purchase and no restrictions are printed on the ticket then the ticket must be treated as having no such restrictions.

 

[ainsworth74]

That just makes matters worse - since there is no restriction code printed the tickets are, by definition, unrestricted:
Since bnm wasn't made aware of restrictions at the time of purchase and no restrictions are printed on the ticket then the ticket must be treated as having no such restrictions.

As far as I'm aware Condition 10 applies only to TOC restrictions not time restrictions. I.e. Unless a ticket says 'TOC X Only' then it can be assumed to be valid on all TOCs (on permitted routes obviously).

 

[sheff1]

The issue that remains is the default position taken by the gateline staff.

And that is something which is not just restricted to Paddington.

 

[najaB]

As far as I'm aware Condition 10 applies only to TOC restrictions not time restrictions. I.e. Unless a ticket says 'TOC X Only' then it can be assumed to be valid on all TOCs (on permitted routes obviously).

I know, the point I was making is that restrictions need to be printed on the ticket and/or advised at point of sale.

 

[miami]

I know, the point I was making is that restrictions need to be printed on the ticket and/or advised at point of sale.

Often there are tickets with
Validity: As Advertised.
or
Validity: See Restrictions

But where can you see them?

The new tickets are great, you can easily see the exact restrictions with just a brief look online, no secret rules hidden away.

 

[najaB]

But where can you see them?

Most have the restriction code on them (as said above one exception is tickets printed by Avantix machines), though they don't have the URL on them.

 

[richw]

Often there are tickets with
Validity: As Advertised.
or
Validity: See Restrictions

But where can you see them?

The new tickets are great, you can easily see the exact restrictions with just a brief look online, no secret rules hidden away.

National rail make it easy for us to find the restriction code online so why can it be so difficult for gate line staff.

NationalRail.co.uk/<restriction code>

E.g. http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/f4 for BNMs particular journey.

 

[TEW]

Tickets issued on trains, like you would get if you travelled from bnm's local station, to this day don't state their restriction code anywhere.

I have a ticket issued from an Avantix machine on an Abellio Greater Anglia service which has the restriction code printed in the normal place, so it is possible to get Avantix machines to print them, just seem GWR's don't.

 

[miami]

Most have the restriction code on them (as said above one exception is tickets printed by Avantix machines), though they don't have the URL on them.

Many don't, and certainly in the past haven't had them. I've recently cleaned out my wallet, however I'm sure I've had several in the past few months that didn't. In those cases they don't have the restriction code on them, and thus "restrictions need to be printed on the ticket and/or advised at point of sale" is false.

As I said, "The new tickets are great, you can easily see the exact restrictions with just a brief look online, no secret rules hidden away."

And some guards have no idea what a restriction code is, let alone be bothered to look them up.

 

[bnm]

Apologies for not updating sooner.

I had some final correspondence in early February on this matter from the Customer Service Manager dealing with the case and my MP.

Those responses were, firstly from the Customer Services Manager:

Hi

Firstly, apologies for the lack of contact over the last 2 weeks - I've been off-line & away from my emails until today so apologies for being so silent & thank you for your patience.

An update on the F3 restriction issue is overdue and I'm hopeful we have identified a solution to the problem that has adversely affected your journey through Paddington station recently.

As you know I arranged for the Station Manager at Paddington to re-brief the front line team, that has happened & we've undertaken further work to ensure the F3 restriction is fully understood, largely I am comfortable that my colleagues on the Gateline at Paddington appreciate the restrictions variance to what they normally see at Peak times however, and as you have discovered directly it only takes one oversight for a mistake to have been made and for a customers journey to have been disrupted.

This is important but alongside ensuring our people do better we have also been working on a technical solution that once in place should allow the ticket to pass through the barriers unrestricted. I have to be honest that the programming of gateline barriers is not something I knew too much about before this issue & as with many other aspects of the industry it is not as simple as just programming them to accept any particular restriction as each programmed restriction has a knock on effect for many others. That said we believe we've been able to work this through and anticipate this solution will be in place this week. I will confirm in due course but once in place a ticket carrying the F3 restriction will open the barriers to allow a customer through at peak times.

I know we have caused you great deal of frustration and inconvenience over this issue and I am just as disappointed that this situation has not been sorted more quickly however I am confident we have identified a permanent solution to the problem.

Finally, I hope you enjoyed the Pullman meal on 20 January & the new menu was agreeable. I hope to dine myself in the coming weeks so all feedback welcome.

And from my MP, who copied in the reply she received from GWR Managing Director Mark Hopwood:

Dear Mr ******

I have received a response from Mark Hopwood, Managing Director of Great Western Railways – please see copy below.

I hope that this does means that you are not prevented from travelling again.

Thank you again for raising this matter with me.

Best wishes

Charlotte

Charlotte Leslie MP
Member of Parliament for Bristol North West
House of Commons
London SW1A 0AA

---

To: LESLIE, Charlotte

Subject: MP16-E004 FGW/GWR denying travel at London Paddington despite valid tickets being held

Dear Charlotte

Thank you for your email regarding your constituent Mr ****** and the problems he is having with his ticket at London Paddington. I am really sorry that this situation has not been resolved more quickly and I apologise to Mr ****** for the inconvenience caused.

He has also been in direct contact with our Customer Relations Manager.

(CS Mgr) has arranged for the Station Manager at Paddington to rebrief the Gateline Team so that Mr ******’s ticket is not challenged. Alongside this our Retail Team have been working on a technical solution so that Mr ******, and other customers with this ticket type, will be able to use their tickets through the gatelines.

We believe we have identified a solution which should be in place shortly. I very much hope that Mr ****** will not therefore experience any further issues at the gateline.

Thank you again for sharing his email and again I am sorry for the obvious inconvenience caused.

Best wishes

Mark

Mark Hopwood | Managing Director | Great Western Railway
Milford House | Swindon | Wiltshire | SN1 1HL

---

I've not made a journey through Paddington using such a ticket for some weeks now, so can't yet report if what's supposed to happen on the ground matches the words of the Customer Services Manager and the MD.

We'll see.

In the meantime the matter is resolved to my satisfaction. However should there be issues going forward then I will not hesitate to relight the touch paper...

 

[Agent_c]

Apologies for not updating sooner.

I had some final correspondence in early February on this matter from the Customer Service Manager dealing with the case and my MP.

Those responses were, firstly from the Customer Services Manager:



And from my MP, who copied in the reply she received from GWR Managing Director Mark Hopwood:




I've not made a journey through Paddington using such a ticket for some weeks now, so can't yet report if what's supposed to happen on the ground matches the words of the Customer Services Manager and the MD.

We'll see.

In the meantime the matter is resolved to my satisfaction. However should there be issues going forward then I will not hesitate to relight the touch paper...

When's the next trip?