Fine for £3.60 ticket

[Western Sunset]

Hence passengers get mixed messages.

There seems to be little middle ground between the "how dare you even contemplate stepping on board a train without a valid ticket otherwise you're a criminal" and the "beat the queues and take a seat" approach.

 

[AlterEgo]

Hence passengers get mixed messages.

There seems to be little middle ground between the "how dare you even contemplate stepping on board a train without a valid ticket otherwise you're a criminal" and the "beat the queues and take a seat" approach.

Beat the queues means simply avoiding the necessity to use the machines or ticket office, not some sort of endorsement to pay when challenged.

 

[kristiang85]

Beat the queues means simply avoiding the necessity to use the machines or ticket office, not some sort of endorsement to pay when challenged.

You and I know that, but you can see for a non regular user that the wording and picture does seem to imply you can sit on the train and buy a ticket once you're sat down.

 

[spag23]

On Northern's webpage, you can eventually drill down to a FAQ that mentions the need to buy a ticket before travelling. But surely the Front Page should be the place for this crucial information; especially given the misleading graphic there.

 

[AY1975]

Indeed. But it takes (ie saves) the same amount of time to buy a ticket online before setting out from home as it does from the station/train. On second thoughts it's probably quicker from home, as you (usually) have a known good signal and can get in straight away. Not to mention having access to a mains-powered charger!

True, but if you are travelling from home to the station by taxi, by public transport or getting a lift in someone else's car, and you know (or think) that you can rely on a good signal on your way to the station, then you might try to save even more time by buying (or attempting to buy) your ticket online as you make your way to the station (as I myself often do, although I do try to allow time to buy a ticket from the ticket office or TVM if I don't manage to buy one online).

And this should include completing any on-line transaction before boarding.

Indeed, I believe that in Switzerland tickets bought online are only valid if bought before the train's scheduled departure time from the station where you boarded. If you present an e-ticket on your phone or other electronic device that you bought after that time, you will be treated as not having a valid ticket and get penalty fared.

 

[spag23]

save even more time by buying (or attempting to buy) your ticket online as you make your way to the station

Buy the ticket while eating your corn-flakes, with the confidence of knowing you don't need to allow extra time at the station?
Or in a moving car/bus/taxi having left early to allow for poor signal?
Which option saves time?
Which is less stressful?
Which is less likely to result in a PF or missed train?

 

[Doppelganger]

On Northern's webpage, you can eventually drill down to a FAQ that mentions the need to buy a ticket before travelling. But surely the Front Page should be the place for this crucial information; especially given the misleading graphic there.

I would report them to Trading Standards as that is false advertising/misrepresentation

 

[mangyiscute]

an offence is committed the moment they "jump aboard".

I would disagree with this - I was travelling from Windermere to Kendal, and I got on the train about 5 mins before it was due to leave and then bought my ticket on the train since its warmer and more comfortable than the platform. I don't see any issue with this since I'm pretty sure you're allowed to board a stationary train while it is sitting in a station for free as long as you don't travel anywhere (or at least how is anyone going to stop you)

True, but if you are travelling from home to the station by taxi, by public transport or getting a lift in someone else's car, and you know (or think) that you can rely on a good signal on your way to the station, then you might try to save even more time by buying (or attempting to buy) your ticket online as you make your way to the station (as I myself often do, although I do try to allow time to buy a ticket from the ticket office or TVM if I don't manage to buy one online).

I often do this while I'm walking to the station, but then again I am taking trains that are like every 7 mins so if I have an issue and need to buy at the station it isn't a huge issue. Also, I'd would question anyone who is travelling to the station for a train that isn't so frequent that you wouldn't mind missing one, and taking car/public transport that means you get to the station so close that you can't buy a ticket.

Final question - whats the policy if you wait in line for the ticket office for like 10 mins+ but theres a long queue, the ticket you want can only be bought at the ticket office - can you claim that you couldn't buy a ticket at the station - this happened to me at Axmister for a devon day ranger and I asked the guard who then said I could buy it on board.

 

[AlterEgo]

I would disagree with this - I was travelling from Windermere to Kendal, and I got on the train about 5 mins before it was due to leave and then bought my ticket on the train since its warmer and more comfortable than the platform. I don't see any issue with this since I'm pretty sure you're allowed to board a stationary train while it is sitting in a station for free as long as you don't travel anywhere (or at least how is anyone going to stop you)

You might have an unfortunate and uncomfortable brush with reality if you ever come across an RPI instead of a guard.

 

[mangyiscute]

You might have an unfortunate and uncomfortable brush with reality if you ever come across an RPI instead of a guard.

So are you not allowed to board and then alight a train that is just sitting in a station? Cause I have done that a few times before

 

[AlterEgo]

So are you not allowed to board and then alight a train that is just sitting in a station? Cause I have done that a few times before

No. It's a criminal offence to board a train without a ticket, having passed ticketing facilities at the station.

A guard will just sell you a ticket in all likelihood. An RPI probably won't, and can caution you, or penalty-fare you or even report for prosecution.

 

[spag23]

So are you not allowed to board and then alight a train that is just sitting in a station? Cause I have done that a few times before

National Rail Conditions of Travel:
"6.1 You must hold a valid Ticket or authority to travel before you board a train where there was the opportunity to buy one unless one of the following circumstances applies..."
There's no distinction about the train's status.

 

[island]

I would disagree with this - I was travelling from Windermere to Kendal, and I got on the train about 5 mins before it was due to leave and then bought my ticket on the train since its warmer and more comfortable than the platform. I don't see any issue with this since I'm pretty sure you're allowed to board a stationary train while it is sitting in a station for free as long as you don't travel anywhere (or at least how is anyone going to stop you)

This isn't something you can disagree with. The law (section 18 (1) of the Railway Byelaws) says you must not join a train for the purpose of travel unless you have with you a valid ticket. Some exceptions are set out in section 18 (3), but wanting to buy a ticket on your phone whilst sat on the train isn't one of them.

Final question - whats the policy if you wait in line for the ticket office for like 10 mins+ but theres a long queue, the ticket you want can only be bought at the ticket office - can you claim that you couldn't buy a ticket at the station - this happened to me at Axmister for a devon day ranger and I asked the guard who then said I could buy it on board.

There is no general entitlement to join a train without a ticket merely because the queue for the ticketing facilities is too long. If you get permission from an authorised member of staff, then this does cover you to get on without a ticket, but if there is a subsequent dispute, the burden of proving that permission was granted lies on the passenger.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

Indeed, I believe that in Switzerland tickets bought online are only valid if bought before the train's scheduled departure time from the station where you boarded. If you present an e-ticket on your phone or other electronic device that you bought after that time, you will be treated as not having a valid ticket and get penalty fared.

Yes, that's correct. SBB dropped the ability to buy a ticket on the train, on conductor operated routes. It's not strictly a penalty fare that you are charged but something similiar to a maximum fare plus costs, I seem to recall, and is separate from the penalty fare on non-conductor routes (ie. where you control your ticket yourself). It is a big enough to make you not want to do this again (in the UK, even with the PF going up to £100 for most it will be just £50 if they pay the fare). In Switzerland, the use of apps is now very widespread and tickets are easy to obtain from machines as well, so passengers seem to have to got used to this new rule relatively easily.

 

[island]

Yes, that's correct. SBB dropped the ability to buy a ticket on the train, on conductor operated routes. It's not strictly a penalty fare that you are charged but something similiar to a maximum fare plus costs, I seem to recall, and is separate from the penalty fare on non-conductor routes (ie. where you control your ticket yourself). It is a big enough to make you not want to do this again (in the UK, even with the PF going up to £100 for most it will be just £50 if they pay the fare). In Switzerland, the use of apps is now very widespread and tickets are easy to obtain from machines as well, so passengers seem to have to got used to this new rule relatively easily.

I bet SBB/CFF/FFS doesn't let ticket machines stay out of order for long

 

[Western Sunset]

But surely one can get on a train (with no intention to travel) and get off before it departs and not do anything criminal? How does one help an elderly relative with their luggage? Or have societal norms moved on completely from what used to happen not so long ago?

 

[AlterEgo]

But surely one can get on a train (with no intention to travel) and get off before it departs and not do anything criminal? How does one help an elderly relative with their luggage? Or have societal norms moved on completely from what used to happen not so long ago?

Of course - @island quoted chapter and verse about “intention to travel”. But remember intent is inferred by actions. Of course you can help your mum with her luggage.

In most cases, if I board a train, a court would believe it to be for the intention of travelling on it. The only excuse I could think of is the one you came up with, assisting a passenger.

 

[mangyiscute]

I would argue that it's up to the court to prove that you intended to travel on the train, but ultimately, I would think it highly unlikely that any ticketing staff would punish someone for boarding a train and then purchasing a ticket while it sits in the station, ultimately, if they do try and punish someone, surely they can claim that they didn't intend to travel on that service, they just wanted to sit on it (I have boarded trains before because I want to see what the inside of a new stock looks like etc but I didn't have a ticket for the train) and then there's nothing that can be done

 

[island]

I would argue that it's up to the court to prove that you intended to travel on the train, but ultimately, I would think it highly unlikely that any ticketing staff would punish someone for boarding a train and then purchasing a ticket while it sits in the station, ultimately, if they do try and punish someone, surely they can claim that they didn't intend to travel on that service, they just wanted to sit on it (I have boarded trains before because I want to see what the inside of a new stock looks like etc but I didn't have a ticket for the train) and then there's nothing that can be done

None of this will stand up to even light scrutiny in court. Magistrates (and district judges) did not come down in the last shower.

 

[AlterEgo]

I would argue that it's up to the court to prove that you intended to travel on the train

It would be up to the prosecution, not “the court”.

, ultimately, if they do try and punish someone, surely they can claim that they didn't intend to travel on that service, they just wanted to sit on it (I have boarded trains before because I want to see what the inside of a new stock looks like etc but I didn't have a ticket for the train) and then there's nothing that can be done

Endearingly naive I’m afraid. Magistrates are brighter than you think.

 

[Mag_seven]

Just a gentle reminder that the OP has asked a question i.e.

In this situation should we pay the settlement or go to court and say not guilty?

All posts should be attempting to give the OP advice and answer that question.

thanks

 

[farleigh]

The other way of doing things is to tell the customer they’re screwed to their face and it’s £20 or try to appeal. That causes conflict.

Seems dishonest to me that - I mean to lie so that you don't have to deal with the true situation

 

[AlbertBeale]

My girlfriend was travelling a 5 minute journey from Meadowhall to Sheffield. The Trainline app on her phone wasn’t working so she tried to buy a ticket on board, when she boarded the train she went straight to the guy who checks the tickets and he said it’ll be £20 now or pay £20 from a letter, he wrote her a ticket and said he would explain what happened. Understandably my girlfriend tried to get off the train but the doors had shut by this point. He said she shouldn’t worry about paying it as he would explain the situation. So a few days later we got the letter saying pay £20. We phoned up the number on the letter and explained the situation gave the ticket guys name and they said there was nothing they could do and we would have to pay £20. Today however she has received a letter being charged with the penalty fair, either go to court and dispute it or pay £100 settlement. Personally I believe the guy checking tickets didn’t give an explanation to anyone, and perhaps he forgot about it.

In this situation should we pay the settlement or go to court and say not guilty?

Not sure how you could say "not guilty" if you got on a train without a ticket and there were facilities on the station (ticket office / machine) where you could have bought one. Surely it's an offence to do this, full stop.

 

[AlterEgo]

Seems dishonest to me that - I mean to lie so that you don't have to deal with the true situation

I agree, I don’t like it either.

 

[Benjwri]

Not sure how you could say "not guilty" if you got on a train without a ticket and there were facilities on the station (ticket office / machine) where you could have bought one. Surely it's an offence to do this, full stop.

This is correct, it's a strict liability offence, the offence was in boarding the train, whether it moved or not. If they go to court they will almost certainly be found guilty and end up paying more and getting a criminal record.

 

[miklcct]

Indeed, I believe that in Switzerland tickets bought online are only valid if bought before the train's scheduled departure time from the station where you boarded. If you present an e-ticket on your phone or other electronic device that you bought after that time, you will be treated as not having a valid ticket and get penalty fared.

Do you mean that a passenger can be penalty fared by buying a ticket for a delayed train after its scheduled departure time, but before its actual departure time? I travel on delayed train a lot which I only enter the station after the scheduled departure time.

 

[MikeWh]

Do you mean that a passenger can be penalty fared by buying a ticket for a delayed train after its scheduled departure time, but before its actual departure time? I travel on delayed train a lot which I only enter the station after the scheduled departure time.

No. The reader checking the tickets will know what time the train actually departed each station.

 

[shredder1]

Especially as one of the 'benefits' of the Northern app is, according to their advertising:

"Beat the queues and take a seat.
With tickets sent straight to your mobile when using the app, your journey just got a lot easier."

accompanied by a picture of someone sitting onboard a train holding their mobile in front of them seemingly (when seen in the context of the text) buying a ticket.

Just goes to show how dodgy some of these companies operate, its legal for them to operate in this way of course, but most people know the difference between whats right and whats wrong

 

[reb0118]

Just goes to show how dodgy some of these companies operate.

However, if you purchase a valid ticket prior to travel, usual caveats apply, then you don't really have to worry how "dodgy" or not your local Train Operating Company is.

Don't over complicate things. The catalyst for this incident is the boarding of a train without a valid ticket where facilities existed - further compounded by refusing, or being unable, to pay a penalty fare. It really is that simple.

 

[shredder1]

"Don't over complicate things", people have purchased valid tickets prior to travel and have still fallen foul of the system, you only have to read some of these posts to see this, lol how I wish our ticketing system was really that simple I can only repeat, most people know the difference between whats right and whats wrong. On a more serious note, Im sure our railways can do better and implement a fairer (farer), and less complex system, mind you its not just the UK that suffers from this.