First Class meal cost to produce

[occone]

Really?! Some might say that's rather self-entitled.

Hah! The emoji I added appears not to have made it through, which does make that sentence lose its intended tone! I think I needed to add a forum emoji and not one from my phone's keyboard.

Sorry to bring this back to VT… but they were good at this as well. Numbers of specific meals taken were recorded, and presumably the quantity of ingredients brought on future trains adjusted accordingly. Their menu certainly seemed to be relatively well optimised, most trains saw a relatively equal distribution of dishes.

Virgin was entirely different, I agree.
I think it's because their whole brand was based on being a bit cheeky, fun, doing a bit extra, possibly a bit showy maybe. I used to go to a Virgin Active gym, and even there the spirit of the brand was carried proudly.

I'm not sure we will see a train operator like that again.

The main aim for TOCs these days is make shareholders money and maybe shuffle some trains about in the process. A shame indeed.

 

[godfreycomplex]

Hah! The emoji I added appears not to have made it through, which does make that sentence lose its intended tone! I think I needed to add a forum emoji and not one from my phone's keyboard.

Ah fair enough I missed that, sorry

 

[tomuk]

The main aim for TOCs these days is make shareholders money and maybe shuffle some trains about in the process. A shame indeed.

No the main aim of TOCs today is to do exactly what the DfT tell them to do nothing more. If they behave the DfT may give them an extra bonus on top of the fixed management fee.

 

[Deafdoggie]

That seems like very creative accounting. At least 50% of my journeys using a senior railcard cost less than the cost of petrol for the same journey and that's before taking account of the cost of parking at the other end which can often exceed the fare on its own.

Not everyone qualifies for a railcard. Not everyone can book in advance. Not even everyone can commit to set trains. And even if you can, only 50% of thr journeys are cheaper. Add in travelling time to & from the station and journey lengths increase. Depends where you're going, but many businesses have free parking for their visitors. It's very hard to justify a business trip by train on cost grounds. For leisure reasons and leisure times possibly. But for business routes and times, not really.

 

[GWVillager]

Not everyone qualifies for a railcard. Not everyone can book in advance. Not even everyone can commit to set trains. And even if you can, only 50% of thr journeys are cheaper. Add in travelling time to & from the station and journey lengths increase. Depends where you're going, but many businesses have free parking for their visitors. It's very hard to justify a business trip by train on cost grounds. For leisure reasons and leisure times possibly. But for business routes and times, not really.

They pay if you don’t have a driver’s license! If they let you into the job, that is, and it’s rarely first class unless it’s cheaper or fractionally more expensive, so meals are unlikely to be covered.

 

[Deafdoggie]

They pay if you don’t have a driver’s license! If they let you into the job, that is, and it’s rarely first class unless it’s cheaper or fractionally more expensive, so meals are unlikely to be covered.

For now. But self-driving cars will end that! And despite the protestations from many, they are a lot closer than you might think. There are many who still dont think electric cars will happen. Despite the fact that they are! Initially I guess they'll still make you have a license, but that will get dropped after a few years. In all the trials they are considerably safer than manual driving, so insurance costs will tumble and that will be the driving (no pun intended) factor in their popularity. Then, of course, you'll be able to eat whilst in the car as you're not driving. Although, granted, you're unlikely to have a chef and full silver service staff with you.

 

[Butts]

With regard to the Breakfast provided if the cost of the ingredients is almost marginal why do they persist in being so parsimonious with the portion sizes ?

The dead give away is the number of calories on the menu.

For some people it may be enough, but why not offer the option of a little more for those with larger appetites ?

To me the greatest attraction of 1st Class Complimentary Catering is the alcohol on offer if you get a good steward. Three or Four whisky's and a couple of beers makes the fares far more palatable on a long journey.

The greatest 1st Class Catering experience I had recently was on Avanti when in the absence of Table Service from Edinburgh to Preston they allowed us to "raid the shop" and have whatever we liked. Normal at seat service resumed after Preston so had the best of both.

 

[robert thomas]

Not everyone qualifies for a railcard. Not everyone can book in advance. Not even everyone can commit to set trains. And even if you can, only 50% of thr journeys are cheaper. Add in travelling time to & from the station and journey lengths increase. Depends where you're going, but many businesses have free parking for their visitors. It's very hard to justify a business trip by train on cost grounds. For leisure reasons and leisure times possibly. But for business routes and times, not really.

For the record I never book advance tickets as I want the flexibility. Almost any journey I make within South wales is cheaper than using the car. It is only when venturing into England and encountering fares set by the likes of Cross Country that it becomes expensive. Great Western is more reasonable. I can get from Neath to Plymouth and back using day returns and split fares for for around fifty pounds including first class travel to and from Cardiff.

 

[Deafdoggie]

For the record I never book advance tickets as I want the flexibility. Almost any journey I make within South wales is cheaper than using the car. It is only when venturing into England and encountering fares set by the likes of Cross Country that it becomes expensive. Great Western is more reasonable. I can get from Neath to Plymouth and back using day returns and split fares for for around fifty pounds including first class travel to and from Cardiff.

Depends on the car too of course. Mines electric so I get a full tank for around £5 to do 200 miles

 

[Merle Haggard]

I seen them loading the breakfasts to an LNER HST few years back. The breakfasts were all in containers which I guess the staff heat up.

In the last days of the H.S.T.s (and the 225s to the north) I spent days travelling on them. Because this involved an early start from the Shires I took breakfast on my first train out of Kings Cross. Usually on busy trains, two stewards would come through with hot trays containing the various constituents of around a dozen meals, returning to the kitchen as each batch was exhausted. The eggs and bacon certainly looked like they had been grilled or fried conventionally, same with the mushrooms. Down the thread someone mentioned microwaving - not sure how that would work for an English breakfast with toast...

 

[Bartsimho]

With some of the food options surely some soup and bread would be cheap and good. Prepare it at the origin and then carry it onto the train where it can be kept warm and served in a cardboard container with some bread. Can also get some mild curries and do the same almost. Doesn't need a chef on the train or a large kitchen but is good hot food for passengers.

 

[Dr Hoo]

With some of the food options surely some soup and bread would be cheap and good. Prepare it at the origin and then carry it onto the train where it can be kept warm and served in a cardboard container with some bread. Can also get some mild curries and do the same almost. Doesn't need a chef on the train or a large kitchen but is good hot food for passengers.

Hmm. Soup isn't really the easiest thing to consume decently on a modern, lurching, British inter city service.

 

[HarryF]

Hmm. Soup isn't really the easiest thing to consume decently on a modern, lurching, British inter city service.

I believe the unions agreed with East Coast (now LNER) when complimentary catering was introduced that soup wouldn’t be served for health and safety reasons.

 

[Bartsimho]

I believe the unions agreed with East Coast (now LNER) when complimentary catering was introduced that soup wouldn’t be served for health and safety reasons.

With the quality of rides on most new trains probably should be no hot food as it's too much of a H&S risk

 

[Rescars]

I believe the unions agreed with East Coast (now LNER) when complimentary catering was introduced that soup wouldn’t be served for health and safety reasons.

Very sensible! In BR restarant cars, soup was normally served with a ladle from a tureen. Particularly traumatic for staff and diners alike in a rough riding saloon!

 

[renegademaster]

At risk of getting political, there is plenty of wealth in this country to tax. It’s not an inherently exploitative demand to have a meal on a train, indeed I’m sure that if the service were good enough you could charge above all the necessary costs and make a profit.

You can tax all the wealth you want it won't magic up new cooks when the labor market is tight. You might be able to automate them though

 

[Starmill]

You can tax all the wealth you want it won't magic up new cooks when the labor market is tight. You might be able to automate them though

Lumo, Italo and Ouigo ES all manage to serve decent quality hot drinks and mostly cold food at a very efficient rate of labour cost-utilisation. Hull Trains by contrast are surprisingly inefficient, all services have two members of onboard staff plus train driver, and yet no catering is available whatsoever in Standard.

Difficult to see why no trains here have a vending machine onboard. It's a reasonably straightforward piece of adapted kit common on the continent.

 

[GWVillager]

You can tax all the wealth you want it won't magic up new cooks when the labor market is tight. You might be able to automate them though

This is a different issue, but hopefully a temporary one. I just meant that there isn’t a desperate shortage of money without creating a suffering underbelly.

 

[renegademaster]

Lumo, Italo and Ouigo ES all manage to serve decent quality hot drinks and mostly cold food at a very efficient rate of labour cost-utilisation. Hull Trains by contrast are surprisingly inefficient, all services have two members of onboard staff plus train driver, and yet no catering is available whatsoever in Standard.

Difficult to see why no trains here have a vending machine onboard. It's a reasonably straightforward piece of adapted kit common on the continent.

I think elf & saftey would get upset about people pouring their own hot drinks, however useful it would be . For cold food it could work

 

[CHESHIRECAT]

Full silver service on charters still including soup from tureen....

 

[Pseudonym]

I loved the proper "3 course" breakfasts and silver service dinner back in the day on GNER. So much better than the "complimentary offer" these days.
You could choose what you wanted from a decent menu and wine list.
I'd always choose LNER based on the first class catering (even though it's relatively poor these days) even if it meant an extra change.

 

[HSTEd]

At risk of getting political, there is plenty of wealth in this country to tax. It’s not an inherently exploitative demand to have a meal on a train, indeed I’m sure that if the service were good enough you could charge above all the necessary costs and make a profit.

The only way to make onboard catering work is to provide huge subsidies or to expect the staff to work for almost nothing.

The productivity on board is just going to be too low.
The only way modern food service systems work is by careful optimisation to maximise throughput per staff member hour.

Can't really do that is a poorly shaped kitchen (with a huge effective 'rent' per square metre) with a relative handful of people to serve in fitful bursts.

I see no utilitarian or social welfare reason why public money should be expended for a minor convenience to a handful of relatively rich railway patrons.

 

[Tetchytyke]

That seems like very creative accounting. At least 50% of my journeys using a senior railcard cost less than the cost of petrol for the same journey

Mileage expenses of up to 45p/mile is tax-free, so for the self-employed using a car will often make more sense. For an employer it’s less clear-cut, as 45p/mile for using an employee’s private car soon adds up. If the employer has a fleet of pool cars it’s a bit different as the cost is the cost of maintaining and fuelling the pool cars.

I loved the proper "3 course" breakfasts and silver service dinner back in the day on GNER. So much better than the "complimentary offer" these days.

It came at a much nicer price though. Last time I did it a cheese burger and wedges came in at £12. This was in something like 2008 and, whilst it was a nice burger and wedges, £12 was a lot of money for what it was.

The only way to make onboard catering work is to provide huge subsidies or to expect the staff to work for almost nothing.

As I said above:

Call it £40k a year with employer on-costs and assume 6 weeks a year off holiday+sickness. It works out about £25/hour cost to the TOC. Five meals an hour and it’s £5 staff costs per meal and £5 ingredient costs.

£10 a meal in first class and the TOCs are pleading poverty? Please.

 

[HSTEd]

Call it £40k a year with employer on-costs and assume 6 weeks a year off holiday+sickness. It works out about £25/hour cost to the TOC. Five meals an hour and it’s £5 staff costs per meal and £5 ingredient costs.

£10 a meal in first class and the TOCs are pleading poverty? Please.

That is only the beginning of the costs, even for staffing alone.
That on board staff member will require management and support staff to deliver the correct materiasl to them on the train at the correct time without spoilage to perishables like food etc etc.
And ofcourse there will be dead time for the staff member because rostering will rarely allow a staff member to be serving customers all day every day, especially given train turnarounds et al.

You probably have to double or treble the on board staff costs to get the costs for the entire staff apparatus (Which can be dispensed with if on board food service is abandoned).


Then you have to consider the 14 or so seats that you could have sold if you weren't doing the catering thing. The cost of those will add up rather rapidly.

 

[Deafdoggie]

...and don't forget to add on the cost of wasted food. If you've got a selection of items on the menu you will have to waste some, you'll never serve the last of each to the last customers wanting them.
I really don't see how full meal train catering is financially viable.
Anyone who says it is should approach a TOC and volunteer to run it. I'm sure they'd happily let you if you promised they didn't have to bail you out when it all went wrong.