First Group: General Discussion

[Robertj21a]

I wonder if they will continue to give up routes like 415, 149 and Ashton routes and then sell the main routes separately? Maybe the 59, 81, 409, 181/182 and 350 would be attractive to the other three Manchester operatives.

If other local operators are interested in specific routes they can just register new services over and above what First already operate. There's no need for them to pay out anything to First.

 

[overthewater]

With it come to FIRST: "Reports of my demise have been greatly exaggerated"

 

[Rod Harrison]

If other local operators are interested in specific routes they can just register new services over and above what First already operate. There's no need for them to pay out anything to First.

Wonder if Oldham will follow the Northampton/Barnstaple scenario and be allowed to fade away or the Portsmouth model and be sold eventually? I suppose could be fully integrated into West Yorkshire but still seeing it being disposed of in one form or another especially with the depot have a limited life.

 

[freetoview33]

Wonder if Oldham will follow the Northampton/Barnstaple scenario and be allowed to fade away or the Portsmouth model and be sold eventually? I suppose could be fully integrated into West Yorkshire but still seeing it being disposed of in one form or another especially with the depot have a limited life.

I think Rotala or GNW will take it eventually when things settle down.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I think Rotala or GNW will take it eventually when things settle down.

I suspect slowly take it, route by route, rather than buy it! Just sit and wait for First to cancel a registration then register your own. If you are already in the area it is obviously easier than setting up from scratch. Just need enough space/capacity in your existing depot.

Also put Transdev into the mix. Their Rochdale dump really does need something that looks more like a professional operator's depot!

There is little talk of management buy-outs or employee co-ops nowadays. All the rage at the time of NBC breakup and PTE disposals.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Some many pages ago, there was discussion on the decline of First in The Potteries, comparing fleet size then and now. I have been to the world of Ebay and made a modest purchase.

In 1982, the NBC Potteries fleetlist shows 234 vehicles: 4 coaches, 26 dual-purpose, 71 single-deck and 133 double deck. Current PVR is around 94 plus however many for maintenance.

 

[ClydeCoaster]

Some many pages ago, there was discussion on the decline of First in The Potteries, comparing fleet size then and now. I have been to the world of Ebay and made a modest purchase.

In 1982, the NBC Potteries fleetlist shows 234 vehicles: 4 coaches, 26 dual-purpose, 71 single-deck and 133 double deck. Current PVR is around 94 plus however many for maintenance.

From the latest fleetlist I saw the fleet was 135, so a reduction of 100. It's sad how so many vehicles can just trickle away. I read something the other day that reminded me that SB Holdings (Strathclyde's Buses and Kelvin Central) had 1300 buses when it was taken over by First, yet the fleet is just over 800 now... A loss of 500 vehicles in 23 years.

 

[lincman]

I suspect slowly take it, route by route, rather than buy it! Just sit and wait for First to cancel a registration then register your own. If you are already in the area it is obviously easier than setting up from scratch. Just need enough space/capacity in your existing depot.

Also put Transdev into the mix. Their Rochdale dump really does need something that looks more like a professional operator's depot!

There is little talk of management buy-outs or employee co-ops nowadays. All the rage at the time of NBC breakup and PTE disposals.

If you look at Oldhams routes they will be difficult to operate from other depots that are still available within the Manchester region.

 

[Robertj21a]

If you look at Oldhams routes they will be difficult to operate from other depots that are still available within the Manchester region.

If past experience of First is anything to go by, they'll just let it gradually wither and die - as per Northampton. The only difference now is that some of the key management has changed so, hopefully, they might have some better ideas.

 

[mic]

I think Rotala or GNW will take it eventually when things settle down.

my guess is GNW

 

[jonesy3001]

if First do keep culling the routes and shut down oldham, i think the select route will go to the select operators
58 to rosso,
59,81,82/83,350 and the 409 to either stagecoach or GNW,
181/182 to either rosso or GNW,

 

[-Colly405-]

I saw somewhere today (Twitter) MCT/CTPlus advertising for drivers for their new Oldham depot...

 

[tbtc]

From the latest fleetlist I saw the fleet was 135, so a reduction of 100. It's sad how so many vehicles can just trickle away. I read something the other day that reminded me that SB Holdings (Strathclyde's Buses and Kelvin Central) had 1300 buses when it was taken over by First, yet the fleet is just over 800 now... A loss of 500 vehicles in 23 years.

...and that's despite First taking on Hutchison of Overtown in the intervening years (and seeing off most competition inside Glasgow - e.g. City Sprinter - plus Stagecoach are down to just the one route wholly inside the city IIRC, compared to what they were thirty years ago)...

...same can be said of Sheffield and other cities too ("frequent" routes cut back to every ten minutes, ten minute services slowly cut to twelve or fifteen... many other services dwindled away... specialist express/commuter routes a thing of the past... I appreciate that there's an argument that improved efficiencies mean you can meet a hundred vehicle PVR service with maybe a hundred and ten vehicles (rather than a hundred and twenty or hundred and thirty vehicles ... and there's generally little difference between "peak" vehicle requirement and "off-peak" nowadays... but it's pretty thin stuff nowadays.

It'd be hard enough to attract new money into the industry, yet alone trying to entice people to take on services in dying towns where rail investment has taken the obvious/lucrative market (could be Oldham - Manchester on the Metrolink but could equally be Blackburn/Accrington - Manchester on the improved rail service being discussed on the "Rosso" thread or the fate that may await local bus operators if/when (heavy/light) rail comes to Portishead/ Levenmouth/ Trafford Centre etc. Governments seem relatively relaxed about spending billions and billions on rail subsidy but expect buses to operate commercially.

 

[Rod Harrison]

if First do keep culling the routes and shut down oldham, i think the select route will go to the select operators
58 to rosso,
59,81,82/83,350 and the 409 to either stagecoach or GNW,
181/182 to either rosso or GNW,

With depots in Ashton, Middleton and Hyde Road, Stagecoach is best placed as it wouldn’t have a problem taking over any of the routes. GNW may not have much spare room at Queens Road and not sure about Transdev.

 

[lincman]

With depots in Ashton, Middleton and Hyde Road, Stagecoach is best placed as it wouldn’t have a problem taking over any of the routes. GNW may not have much spare room at Queens Road and not sure about Transdev.

If you look at the history of Oldhams routes they were built on joint operations with Manchester, Ashton, and Rochdale Corporations, along with North Western and SHMD apart from the Town services. Anyone taking these services over will find out how difficult it is to make them financially viable running from remote locations, as I feel sure Rotala will find operating the 162/163 from Bolton.

 

[CM]

I believe that when First acquired Strathclyde/Kelvin Central a fair amount of the fleet at that time was pretty much scrap with the Kelvin fleet being particularly bad. I'm also fairly certain at that time the Strathclyde/Kelvin operations had quite a large amount of reserve/withdrawn vehicles lying around compared to nowadays.

 

[Andyh82]

I don’t specifically know about Glasgow, but there is also the case that in the past the ‘big’ operator often ran everything, frequent corridors, smaller links, tendered minibuses, schools..

Whereas these days they are less likely to and smaller operators are more likely to run the tenders and the schools. That will trim buses from the fleet numbers.

 

[Alexbus12]

, as I feel sure Rotala will find operating the 162/163 from Bolton.

I believe the 163 is doing quite well, they're just suffering issues with vandalism atm

 

[lincman]

I believe the 163 is doing quite well, they're just suffering issues with vandalism atm

I have no doubt that the service can be run well from Bolton Depot, as I am sure there are very professional staff there, but running well and making a substantial financial contribution are two very different things.

 

[freetoview33]

Looking at things further I think First will most likely end up just winding down Oldham. As MCT have closed Stockport and Rochdale and opened a new site in Oldham, so they are in a good position to take them on.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Wonder if Oldham will follow the Northampton/Barnstaple scenario and be allowed to fade away or the Portsmouth model and be sold eventually? I suppose could be fully integrated into West Yorkshire but still seeing it being disposed of in one form or another especially with the depot have a limited life.

If Oldham is fully integrated into West Yorkshire, it'd become an outstation like Todmorden.

 

[ClydeCoaster]

Do Wellglade still have a shareholding in Leicester Citybus? If so, in the event of breaking up First Bus you'd think they'd be interested in taking that on?

 

[freetoview33]

Do Wellglade still have a shareholding in Leicester Citybus? If so, in the event of breaking up First Bus you'd think they'd be interested in taking that on?

Yes they do

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

FWIW, I don't know if First will simply fade away. All too often, Northampton and Barnstaple are cited as examples. Whilst Northampton was a close down, the Barnstaple one was that a sale had been agreed and the CMA getting involved meant that Stagecoach walked away. Also, that was 2012/3 - more recent examples show that has been less the case.

Someone with local experience will be able to confirm that much of the Ashton work being relinquished was formerly run by Dukinfield? That must impact on the viability and I wonder if First were keeping it going to add to the market share and attractiveness of the Oldham sale. That fell through so best trim back the less lucrative work?

There is clearly no long term wish to retain Oldham but I think they'll batten down the hatches, make sure it washes it's face and look to sell if only to avoid exit liabilities.

 

[158756]

Looking at things further I think First will most likely end up just winding down Oldham. As MCT have closed Stockport and Rochdale and opened a new site in Oldham, so they are in a good position to take them on.

MCT seem happy to survive off tenders and scraps. They've shown no interest in frequent commercial services, probably wisely given the competition around. If however, Stagecoach were to start say a 59, 83 and 409, I doubt First would be able to do much about it.

Whether anyone actually wants to drive First out at the moment is an interesting question - if Burnham's franchising plans come to fruition there won't be very much time to recover the losses incurred in doing so, and if the depot doesn't leave bus industry ownership it'll spring back to life bidding for the new contracts.

 

[Robertj21a]

Do Wellglade still have a shareholding in Leicester Citybus? If so, in the event of breaking up First Bus you'd think they'd be interested in taking that on?

TrentBarton own 6%.

 

[freetoview33]

MCT seem happy to survive off tenders and scraps. They've shown no interest in frequent commercial services, probably wisely given the competition around. If however, Stagecoach were to start say a 59, 83 and 409, I doubt First would be able to do much about it.

Whether anyone actually wants to drive First out at the moment is an interesting question - if Burnham's franchising plans come to fruition there won't be very much time to recover the losses incurred in doing so, and if the depot doesn't leave bus industry ownership it'll spring back to life bidding for the new contracts.

But now they are owned by CT Plus it could be a different matter, CT Plus seem to want to expand.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

But now they are owned by CT Plus it could be a different matter, CT Plus seem to want to expand.

Given the generally cordial relations that they have with First, unlikely that they will seek to do anything controversial.

 

[Kahuna47]

IMHO, I can see Oldham going one of two ways:

1) Bought out by another company (names are available in a hat I believe )

2) First will continue to run Oldham (proably as an outstation of West Yorks, no point in having big wigs there for one depot!) until Burnham's pipe dream of franchising kicks in, and First will just not bother bidding, allowing Oldham to naturally wither and die. It's a real shame for the staff there that First can do something so callous. I believe this way is what they are planning for Vantage as they've not bothered to get a permanent base...

K

 

[Andyh82]

It would be a ruddy big outstation, I’m sure they have about 150 buses.