First Group: General Discussion

[buslad1988]

Even if they dropped local liveries there is still a place for high profile routes, like the Jurassic Coaster to be branded. Would they really be dropping the Excel brand at Eastern Counties for example?

Well in Essex despite dropping the Essex and Shuttles brands (not that the latter ever really developed except in publicity and on a handful of repaints) they are for now keeping the AirLink brand going. So maybe there will (hopefully) be some sensible exceptions!

When you look at the new PDF’s for the change on 20th April everything is now marketed as First Bus except the X20/320.

Service Changes from 20th April 2025 - North Essex

North Essex We are making some changes to the Essex bus network from Sunday 20th April 2025. Many of our changes are intended to improve the punctuality of the bus services that we provide. In Colchester, we are combining some services together to provide new connections and in doing this we...

www.firstbus.co.uk

 

[G760XRE]

With the First Leicester thread locked for replies I'll have to post this here.

Noticed today a Leicester E400 at Potteries Adderley Green depot today in the orange Frequent Fourteen's livery. I'd guess it's here for repaint. Looked to be 33700 but difficult to say for certainty. Can anyone confirm. Also, is it to go back to Leicester once painted, or is it for onward transfer?

First Potteries Depot 'Repaint Corner'

Vehicles from other First op-co's for painting into Ultraviolet livery. First South Yorkshire B7RLE 69391 HY09AUV (Painted) First Leicester E400 33700 SN12AHF First South Yorkshire Streetdeck 35684 MF22SYV First South Yorkshire Streetlite 63410 SV22VWO Also present behind the Leicester E400 is...

www.flickr.com

 

[aswilliamsuk]

With the First Leicester thread locked for replies I'll have to post this here.

Noticed today a Leicester E400 at Potteries Adderley Green depot today in the orange Frequent Fourteen's livery. I'd guess it's here for repaint. Looked to be 33700 but difficult to say for certainty. Can anyone confirm. Also, is it to go back to Leicester once painted, or is it for onward transfer?

First Potteries Depot 'Repaint Corner'

Vehicles from other First op-co's for painting into Ultraviolet livery. First South Yorkshire B7RLE 69391 HY09AUV (Painted) First Leicester E400 33700 SN12AHF First South Yorkshire Streetdeck 35684 MF22SYV First South Yorkshire Streetlite 63410 SV22VWO Also present behind the Leicester E400 is...

www.flickr.com

The last handful of E400s from Leicester are expected at Colchester to finish off the last few B7TLs.

 

[317 forever]

I liked the phase when First were introducing local liveries but basically to Urban style.

Where they are in introducing identical buses, even electric buses, this will limit how many areas of the country I wish to visit to ride them.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I liked the phase when First were introducing local liveries but basically to Urban style.

Where they are in introducing identical buses, even electric buses, this will limit how many areas of the country I wish to visit to ride them.

Surely if you're riding on them, you don't see the livery anyway???

 

[317 forever]

Surely if you're riding on them, you don't see the livery anyway???

I do on buses passing in the opposite direction. Plus the livery to some extent adds character to the buses.

 

[joieman]

Surely if you're riding on them, you don't see the livery anyway???

The external appearance of the bus, including the livery, is the first thing a prospective passenger will see before boarding a bus. First impressions matter!

 

[mangad]

The external appearance of the bus, including the livery, is the first thing a prospective passenger will see before boarding a bus. First impressions matter!

Do they? How much do people pay attention as long as the right number is on the front of the bus?

Many years ago I did a special ride on the Piccadilly underground line on the London Transport Museum's 1938 stock. Every station we paused at (not for boarding) people came to the train and tried to board. This despite the fact the train was painted the wrong colour,and was the wrong shape.

Yes that's a tube not a bus. But think about buses with all over adverts on them. If people paid more attention to the livery than the route number and destination, people would never get on such buses.

Seriously I am convinced that far more people at first's head office care about the livery of the bus than the number of passengers. Personally I notice far more if the bus is full of litter, if it stinks if weed (or vapes) and if there's some inconsiderate person playing music out of their mobile

 

[nick291]

Seriously I am convinced that far more people at first's head office care about the livery of the bus than the number of passengers. Personally I notice far more if the bus is full of litter, if it stinks if weed (or vapes) and if there's some inconsiderate person playing music out of their mobile

I notice this a lot more too than whatever bus turns up on my local route. Unless they put a single decker on it, then that's hard not to notice!

 

[joieman]

Do they? How much do people pay attention as long as the right number is on the front of the bus?

Many years ago I did a special ride on the Piccadilly underground line on the London Transport Museum's 1938 stock. Every station we paused at (not for boarding) people came to the train and tried to board. This despite the fact the train was painted the wrong colour,and was the wrong shape.

Yes that's a tube not a bus. But think about buses with all over adverts on them. If people paid more attention to the livery than the route number and destination, people would never get on such buses.

Seriously I am convinced that far more people at first's head office care about the livery of the bus than the number of passengers. Personally I notice far more if the bus is full of litter, if it stinks if weed (or vapes) and if there's some inconsiderate person playing music out of their mobile

I guess folks like us pay more attention to appearances than others might, then!

 

[Dwarfer1979]

Do they? How much do people pay attention as long as the right number is on the front of the bus?

Many years ago I did a special ride on the Piccadilly underground line on the London Transport Museum's 1938 stock. Every station we paused at (not for boarding) people came to the train and tried to board. This despite the fact the train was painted the wrong colour,and was the wrong shape.

Yes that's a tube not a bus. But think about buses with all over adverts on them. If people paid more attention to the livery than the route number and destination, people would never get on such buses.

Seriously I am convinced that far more people at first's head office care about the livery of the bus than the number of passengers. Personally I notice far more if the bus is full of litter, if it stinks if weed (or vapes) and if there's some inconsiderate person playing music out of their mobile

Some intending passengers, those who are actually waiting for a bus, pay very little attention in that way - when I was driver training the number of people who tried to flag down the training coach with big L plates and no destination blind surprised - though there is the caveat that if you go big on route branding across your business consistently (allocations, marketing and general messaging) then it does have an impact and some passengers go the other way and only look for buses in a specific colour and miss trips when vehicles in a different colour is allocated (more pay little attention to colour than more but it isn't fully one way or the other). Of course on the tube no one really knows what the colour of the train should be and just assume anything stopping would be their tube so is slightly different to a bus on the street.

The big thing about livery is standing out to prospective passengers who don't normally use the bus to make the bus noticeable and attractive so that they start to think about using the bus. In this thinking an attractive livery that stands out a bit on the streetscape will keep the bus in peoples minds and so may draw people to look up the network and maybe try the bus, in this case I think the First livery works to some extent as it has some aesthetic merit in a way the bland all-over dark blue of Stagecoach or slightly insipid yellow of Bee Network don't quite do (London red is a little middling as it is a decent colour and just part of the London identity but without some design features to break up the solid colour it also becomes a bit wall papery). Having a local identity, as buses are locally focussed businesses at their heart, does have merit in engendering some local pride and loyalty that a national identity can't produce and as a local market having buses the same as a town elsewhere doesn't really help (tickets, t&cs, ethos etc are different depot to depot & region to region) unlike organisations like McDonalds & Tesco where the range is the same everywhere.

Route branding is slightly different as it is a more specific marketing plan, emphasising the specific route or network in a more individual way. The buses past your house are an identifiable colour which can then be seen where you are going (the town centre normally) and the frequency you see them stands out more as they are a different colour to those going to other places. When managed properly this is reinforced when they become a user making it easier to spot you bus from a distance reducing some of the stress of travelling uncertainty and not needing people to rely on a destination blind which can never provide a full detail of the route. To make route branding work effectively you have to dedicate a lot of business focus on making it work but then it can pay back but do it badly and it costs a lot for little benefit.

 

[Tom Gallacher]

Do they? How much do people pay attention as long as the right number is on the front of the bus?

Many years ago I did a special ride on the Piccadilly underground line on the London Transport Museum's 1938 stock. Every station we paused at (not for boarding) people came to the train and tried to board. This despite the fact the train was painted the wrong colour,and was the wrong shape.

Yes that's a tube not a bus. But think about buses with all over adverts on them. If people paid more attention to the livery than the route number and destination, people would never get on such buses.

Seriously I am convinced that far more people at first's head office care about the livery of the bus than the number of passengers. Personally I notice far more if the bus is full of litter, if it stinks if weed (or vapes) and if there's some inconsiderate person playing music out of their mobile

About 20 years ago I was visited by two students who were doing a marketing project for First Glasgow. At that time I was a supplier to First so I guess they just picked companies/people who would know a bit about the bus industry to interview. The project was concerning the branding etc and how this could be used to get more passengers. At that time First Glasgow were experiencing a lot of maintenance issues.

My response was quite short and (I think) to the point. I said that there were 5 things that mattered most to prospective passengers:

1. The bus needs to turn up.
2. If the bus turns up on time, that's a bonus.
3. If the bus turns up and there is space available then that is another bonus.
4. If the bus turns up and it is accessible to all then that again is a bonus.
5. If the bus turns up and is clean inside and out, another bonus.

Most important thing though is that the bus needs to turn up. Without that, nothing else matters. Branding is cosmetic but won't get you passengers unless they actually go out on the road.

Don't know if that ever got reported back.

 

[Goldfish62]

About 20 years ago I was visited by two students who were doing a marketing project for First Glasgow. At that time I was a supplier to First so I guess they just picked companies/people who would know a bit about the bus industry to interview. The project was concerning the branding etc and how this could be used to get more passengers. At that time First Glasgow were experiencing a lot of maintenance issues.

My response was quite short and (I think) to the point. I said that there were 5 things that mattered most to prospective passengers:

1. The bus needs to turn up.
2. If the bus turns up on time, that's a bonus.
3. If the bus turns up and there is space available then that is another bonus.
4. If the bus turns up and it is accessible to all then that again is a bonus.
5. If the bus turns up and is clean inside and out, another bonus.

Most important thing though is that the bus needs to turn up. Without that, nothing else matters. Branding is cosmetic but won't get you passengers unless they actually go out on the road.

Don't know if that ever got reported back.

Fancy trying to encourage people to try the bus while also explaining that if it turns up on time and there's room on it these are somehow both bonuses.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I do on buses passing in the opposite direction. Plus the livery to some extent adds character to the buses.

I still don't quite get the relevance. You say you might travel less because buses are less distinctive externally but you can't see that if you're travelling. However, you say you look at buses passing in the opposite direction...which means you don't need to travel anyway?

In any case, the loss of revenue from a few enthusiasts will be nothing compared to the projected savings from not repainting vehicles on transfer

The external appearance of the bus, including the livery, is the first thing a prospective passenger will see before boarding a bus. First impressions matter!

I don't think you got my point - explained above

About 20 years ago I was visited by two students who were doing a marketing project for First Glasgow. At that time I was a supplier to First so I guess they just picked companies/people who would know a bit about the bus industry to interview. The project was concerning the branding etc and how this could be used to get more passengers. At that time First Glasgow were experiencing a lot of maintenance issues.

My response was quite short and (I think) to the point. I said that there were 5 things that mattered most to prospective passengers:

1. The bus needs to turn up.
2. If the bus turns up on time, that's a bonus.
3. If the bus turns up and there is space available then that is another bonus.
4. If the bus turns up and it is accessible to all then that again is a bonus.
5. If the bus turns up and is clean inside and out, another bonus.

Most important thing though is that the bus needs to turn up. Without that, nothing else matters. Branding is cosmetic but won't get you passengers unless they actually go out on the road.

Don't know if that ever got reported back.

Absolutely right.

First of all, reliability is THE most important consideration for a customer. It's the base requirement - does it get me to where I want to go, and at the time it should. That is the core of the "product" and you can't market an inherently crap product (i.e. doesn't turn up, isn't late, doesn't go where I want it to go).

Get that right and then you can focus on marketing etc. Oh, and price/value is a relatively low consideration for most passengers. This is borne out in countless studies and surveys.

 

[Tom Gallacher]

Fancy trying to encourage people to try the bus while also explaining that if it turns up on time and there's room on it these are somehow both bonuses.

Points 2-5 would be for internal consumption only

On a serious note, my main point to them was that First had bigger problems that putting fancy stickers on the front and sides wouldn't solve. Use the marketing spend to get the buses back on the road.

 

[Goldfish62]

Points 2-5 would be for internal consumption only

On a serious note, my main point to them was that First had bigger problems that putting fancy stickers on the front and sides wouldn't solve. Use the marketing spend to get the buses back on the road.

Ah, OK. I'm with you now!

Yes, completely agree with everything in that case!

 

[Tom Gallacher]

I still don't quite get the relevance. You say you might travel less because buses are less distinctive externally but you can't see that if you're travelling. However, you say you look at buses passing in the opposite direction...which means you don't need to travel anyway?

In any case, the loss of revenue from a few enthusiasts will be nothing compared to the projected savings from not repainting vehicles on transfer

I don't think you got my point - explained above

Absolutely right.

First of all, reliability is THE most important consideration for a customer. It's the base requirement - does it get me to where I want to go, and at the time it should. That is the core of the "product" and you can't market an inherently crap product (i.e. doesn't turn up, isn't late, doesn't go where I want it to go).

Get that right and then you can focus on marketing etc. Oh, and price/value is a relatively low consideration for most passengers. This is borne out in countless studies and surveys.

Around that time they came up with this (to me anyway) bizarre marketing idea whereby certain routes would have buses that were the "gold star" fleet. These buses would be cleaned inside and out on a daily basis so would supposedly always look smart. The no 6 route which passes by where I live was one of these routes and the buses all had large stars on the front. Didn't last long though, whether that was down to the actual practicalities of the concept or passengers using other routes complaining I don't know.

It constantly astounds me how First can manage to make the biggest screw ups in managing their business.

 

[Goldfish62]

Around that time they came up with this (to me anyway) bizarre marketing idea whereby certain routes would have buses that were the "gold star" fleet. These buses would be cleaned inside and out on a daily basis so would supposedly always look smart.

Incredible that First even thought it OK to boast that some buses were cleaned daily when this should be a base requirement for the whole fleet (defective bus washes etc permitting).

 

[buslad1988]

Really if First are wanting to improve they need to look towards the types of Transdev in Yorkshire.

They taylor the style/comfort depending on the route corridor. For example: Harrogate locals (nice but basic - you’re not on them for long so it doesn’t matter) The 36 - next level which is what you need if you really are wanting to get people out of their cars. Coastliner - Comfy seats with extra luggage space and family type areas with tables.

A basic town/city type service does not require the same level of spec vehicle than an interurban one. Taking a one-spec fits all approach that First does you are never going to attract the new numbers they’re wanting.

Yes buses need to turn up on time, they also need timetables that are easy to understand and can be remembered (no AI rubbish).

It will be interesting to see what First order next for the excel in Norfolk! It could take a big step backwards.

 

[Tom Gallacher]

Incredible that First even thought it OK to boast that some buses were cleaned daily when this should be a base requirement for the whole fleet (defective bus washes etc permitting).

I know. Talk about shooting yourselves in the foot. If there's a stupid idea out there then First will try it.

 

[Dwarfer1979]

Points 2-5 would be for internal consumption only

On a serious note, my main point to them was that First had bigger problems that putting fancy stickers on the front and sides wouldn't solve. Use the marketing spend to get the buses back on the road.

Whenever the annual passenger satisfaction survey comes out I suspect the big problem the big groups have and why so often they are performed by operators who often aren't obviously better at service delivery is this, they over-promise in their marketing compared to their delivery - too focussed on the high profile projects than basic delivery. First and Arriva (and increasingly Stagecoach) still have smooth high quality marketing messages but their actual delivery is fairly average so customers end up disappointed whereas someone like Centrebus, who has done quite well in recent years in the annual Transport Focus surveys (they may be good at what they do but you wouldn't list them as one of the premium operators where you would expect high satisfaction levels), don't promise anything more than being an average bus company but since they deliver that more often than not customer expectations are met and satisfied and so they score better than expected.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Around that time they came up with this (to me anyway) bizarre marketing idea whereby certain routes would have buses that were the "gold star" fleet. These buses would be cleaned inside and out on a daily basis so would supposedly always look smart. The no 6 route which passes by where I live was one of these routes and the buses all had large stars on the front. Didn't last long though, whether that was down to the actual practicalities of the concept or passengers using other routes complaining I don't know.

It constantly astounds me how First can manage to make the biggest screw ups in managing their business.

That gold star nonsense also came to Bristol. TBF, the state of the fleet (under the MD at that time) did improve noticeably but things shouldn't have declined as they did.

Really if First are wanting to improve they need to look towards the types of Transdev in Yorkshire.

They taylor the style/comfort depending on the route corridor. For example: Harrogate locals (nice but basic - you’re not on them for long so it doesn’t matter) The 36 - next level which is what you need if you really are wanting to get people out of their cars. Coastliner - Comfy seats with extra luggage space and family type areas with tables.

A basic town/city type service does not require the same level of spec vehicle than an interurban one. Taking a one-spec fits all approach that First does you are never going to attract the new numbers they’re wanting.

Yes buses need to turn up on time, they also need timetables that are easy to understand and can be remembered (no AI rubbish).

It will be interesting to see what First order next for the excel in Norfolk! It could take a big step backwards.

Of course, one might say that Transdev fell into the trap of too much marketing - service delivery was quite poor at Harrogate and, of course, the finances were pretty abject at one point.

However, I do agree with your general point. For most routes, it's perfectly fine to have a standard livery and a standard vehicle spec. However, there are clearly routes that could benefit from something tailored and that will just be lost in the mix.

 

[Tom Gallacher]

Whenever the annual passenger satisfaction survey comes out I suspect the big problem the big groups have and why so often they are performed by operators who often aren't obviously better at service delivery is this, they over-promise in their marketing compared to their delivery - too focussed on the high profile projects than basic delivery. First and Arriva (and increasingly Stagecoach) still have smooth high quality marketing messages but their actual delivery is fairly average so customers end up disappointed whereas someone like Centrebus, who has done quite well in recent years in the annual Transport Focus surveys (they may be good at what they do but you wouldn't list them as one of the premium operators where you would expect high satisfaction levels), don't promise anything more than being an average bus company but since they deliver that more often than not customer expectations are met and satisfied and so they score better than expected.

The big bus company's seem to have fallen into the same trap as the broadband/phone providers are in. Constantly trying to find new customers instead of concentrating on keeping the ones they have. In my business, my philosophy is that if I keep my current customers happy then they will do more to increase my customer base through word of mouth than any amount of money I could spend on marketing.

 

[buslad1988]

The big bus company's seem to have fallen into the same trap as the broadband/phone providers are in. Constantly trying to find new customers instead of concentrating on keeping the ones they have. In my business, my philosophy is that if I keep my current customers happy then they will do more to increase my customer base through word of mouth than any amount of money I could spend on marketing.

Very true. Too often bus operators are chasing something that isn’t there rather than looking after their bread and butter passengers. If you keep them happy, hold on to them then eventually others will follow suit give the bus a try and maybe switch.

First needs to get the basics right. It only takes one bad experience of a bus not showing up, a driver being grumpy and that’ll potentially result in that person never wanting to use a bus again (unless there is no alternative) and that’s not to mention they’ll tell the story to the rest of their family, friends etc about the experience. Thus more bad publicity and bigger hurdles to climb to attract new users.

Some things First can’t help though. One of my local routes (Ipswich to Felixstowe) runs every half hour Sunday daytimes. On an average Sunday that’s fine; factor in a sunny day then double deckers are rammed, they’re stuck in traffic, late and people are moaning about why there’s not extra buses etc. In situations like that you can’t win regardless… but it’s on days like that you’ll get the irregular travellers like families who include the bus as part of the fun experience of the day out. So it’s a shame in these instances where circumstances are out of the bus operators control that people will already have decided it’s a rubbish service etc and will be put off using them again.

 

[Goldfish62]

Very true. Too often bus operators are chasing something that isn’t there rather than looking after their bread and butter passengers. If you keep them happy, hold on to them then eventually others will follow suit give the bus a try and maybe switch.

First needs to get the basics right. It only takes one bad experience of a bus not showing up, a driver being grumpy and that’ll potentially result in that person never wanting to use a bus again (unless there is no alternative) and that’s not to mention they’ll tell the story to the rest of their family, friends etc about the experience. Thus more bad publicity and bigger hurdles to climb to attract new users.

Case in point is Cornwall. In the latest Transport Focus passenger survey GoCornwall scores much better than First. Go Cornwall have a fleet of plain red buses which are getting decidedly worn and battered yet overall they get the basics right. They do normally turn up when they're supposed to, the buses are clean internally and the drivers generally seem a much happier bunch than those with First.

 

[jcrwey]

On the branding topic the loss of the Portland Coaster branding seems to be affecting loadings. Yes Easter is a new service period for this route but loadings have been very low / non-existent on the majority of journeys. Compared to previous years:

- No branded buses creating intrigue and awareness to potential passengers highlighting the route to Portland Bill and the lighthouse.
- Timetables at stops in the new corporate style compared to nicely branded publicity with no mention of the fact it is an open top bus and the attractions enroute.
- No marketing of ticketing options online, on bus or stop publicity.
- Route number changed from Portland Coaster to just 11 making it seem like a standard route.
- In the past there was lots of marketing done too and attractive leaflets about the service at key tourist hotspots. I don't think there was even a post on the Service Updates page of their website advertising the services return.

Contrast that with the Weymouth Land Train around the seafront and harbour. Yes not a bus but lessons to be learnt by First for a premium, tourist orientated open top route (that locals love too!) - clear branding, large flags/bollard covers/posters/A-Boards at the stops and lots of marketing has been done on social media groups etc. So many more passengers seen on this with journeys busy unlike the 3 people I saw board the open top. First seem to just expect people to turn up for the open top route without doing anything. Shocking this year so far!

 

[nick291]

I know. Talk about shooting yourselves in the foot. If there's a stupid idea out there then First will try it.

Most, if not all of the branding at FWOE stands out to me in that case, unless it's town/city services ie badgerline, citylines etc. That makes it easy to identify for a prospective passenger and their local route(s). Kind of a shame its being discontinued really.

 

[-Colly405-]

On the branding topic the loss of the Portland Coaster branding seems to be affecting loadings. Yes Easter is a new service period for this route but loadings have been very low / non-existent on the majority of journeys. Compared to previous years:

- No branded buses creating intrigue and awareness to potential passengers highlighting the route to Portland Bill and the lighthouse.
- Timetables at stops in the new corporate style compared to nicely branded publicity with no mention of the fact it is an open top bus and the attractions enroute.
- No marketing of ticketing options online, on bus or stop publicity.
- Route number changed from Portland Coaster to just 11 making it seem like a standard route.
- In the past there was lots of marketing done too and attractive leaflets about the service at key tourist hotspots. I don't think there was even a post on the Service Updates page of their website advertising the services return.

Contrast that with the Weymouth Land Train around the seafront and harbour. Yes not a bus but lessons to be learnt by First for a premium, tourist orientated open top route (that locals love too!) - clear branding, large flags/bollard covers/posters/A-Boards at the stops and lots of marketing has been done on social media groups etc. So many more passengers seen on this with journeys busy unlike the 3 people I saw board the open top. First seem to just expect people to turn up for the open top route without doing anything. Shocking this year so far!

I cannot find anything on the website about the 11, except on the Timetables page, where if you search "Portland", the only route listed is the 11 (not the 1).
When you go to the timetable, the (correct) timetable for today 14/4 says on it Timetables valid until:12/04/2025.
And oddly, picking a day at random, bustimes shows it as running this coming Sunday (20th) whereas First returns "no journeys available for the selected date".
What a mess...

 

[nick291]

Does first not have a contact for customer services anymore? I need to complain about my local route not turning up twice in a row meaning I had to wait nearly an hour which is utterly unacceptable. Especially when they want to encourage more people to use the bus.

 

[Stan Drews]

Does first not have a contact for customer services anymore? I need to complain about my local route not turning up twice in a row meaning I had to wait nearly an hour which is utterly unacceptable. Especially when they want to encourage more people to use the bus.

The contact us section of their website provides the following number 0345 646 0707 for customer services.

Contact us

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www.firstbus.co.uk