First Potteries Discussion

[SeanM1997]

Stoke City Council have gone out for tender on several routes. Its likely First Potteries will bid for several of these tenders - https://www.stoke.gov.uk/news/artic...transport_improvement_plan_for_stoke-on-trent:

As part of the council’s plans to improve services and make life easier for residents, bus operators are being invited to bid for tenders to operate new and extended services across Stoke-on-Trent.

The first phase of tenders being advertised are proposed to enhance and introduce the following routes until 31 March 2026:

• Service 6 (City Centre - Longton)
• Service 8 (Ball Green - Norton – Smallthorne – City Centre)
• Service 11 (Longton – Bentilee – City Centre)
• Service 23 (Blurton - Stoke - City Centre or Newstead – Blurton – Stoke – City Centre)
• Service 26 (Bentilee – Berry Hill - City Centre or Park Hall – Bentilee – Berry Hill – City Centre)
• Service 36 (Meir – Longton – City Centre – Burslem – Tunstall – Kidsgrove)
• Service 36A (Meir Park – Longton – City Centre – Burslem – Tunstall Kidsgrove)
• Service 50 (Longton – Pool Dole (Fenton) – City Centre or Lightwood – Longton – Pool Dole (Fenton) – City Centre)

Companies have until midnight on Wednesday 28 February 2024, to make a submission. Each bid will be considered by a case-by-case basis.

The routes listed above are only the proposed routes and are subject to change. They may not reflect the final services.

Councillor Jane Ashworth, leader of Stoke-on-Trent City Council, said: “We are committed to improving our local transport network as part of our vision of making the city a healthier, wealthier, safer, greener, cleaner and fairer place for all who live and work here.

“We want to work with the bus companies to introduce additional journeys which run more frequently and operate at the weekends. This will help to open up key employment sites and make it easier for everyone – from students to pensioners – to use public transport. We ultimately want to increase the number of people using public transport and make it as easy as possible to travel around the city.

“These tender opportunities are the very first step in getting these bus service enhancements in place and I would encourage all of the local bus companies to submit a bid. I am really looking forward to announcing the successful tenders later this year.”

Councillor Amjid Wazir, deputy leader and cabinet member for city pride, enforcement and sustainability, added: “Building on our highly successful Affordable Fares scheme, which we launched last year, we are really pleased to announce these tender opportunities.

“People have told us that the lack of buses at key times is a big issue. We hope that bus operators will get onboard so that we can make it easier to get around our city, get to school, college, work or leisure facilities and make the most of what Stoke-on-Trent has to offer.”

The Bus Service Enhancement Scheme forms part of Stoke-on-Trent City Council’s wider Bus Service Improvement Plan which is being funded by £31.6 million from the Department for Transport (DfT).

It follows the launch of the Affordable Fares scheme back in July which offers significantly discounted fares to passengers across Stoke-on-Trent and Newcastle.

For more information about the tenders, visit Opportunities to supply the council | Stoke-on-Trent or www.stoke.gov.uk/publictransport.

The approved BSIP suggests the Crewe extension is to be reduced to hourly or become a Crewe-Kidsgrove standalone service. Details are very minimal and hopefully doesn't happen and instead Crewe is kept at current service level to help the profitability of the proposed 36/36A services

 

[Baxenden Bank]

A bit more detail on the tenders.
Yes, the details do not match, no service 8 or 50 here!

From https://www.find-tender.service.gov.uk
Search term 'stoke'. Don't include 'city' or 'council' you'll get every council in the country.

Bus Service Enhancements (HDG/2023/618*)
A
S091/1: Service 6 City Centre – Longton
Value excluding VAT: £26,000
26-Mar-26

B
S091/2: Service 11 City Centre – Bentilee – Longton
Value excluding VAT: £104,000
26-Mar-26

C
S091/3: Service 11 City Centre – Bentilee – Longton
Value excluding VAT: £26,500
27-Mar-25

D
S091/4: Service 23 City Centre – Stoke – Blurton
Value excluding VAT: £45,600
27-Mar-26

E
S091/5 (part 1): Service 23 City Centre – Stoke – Blurton – Newstead
Value excluding VAT: £91,200
27-Mar-26

F
S091/6 (part 1): Service 26 City Centre – Berry Hill – Bentilee
Value excluding VAT: £78,000
27-Mar-26

G
S091/7 (part 1): Service 26 City Centre – Berry Hill – Bentilee – Park Hall
Value excluding VAT: £182,000
27-Mar-26

H
S091/8: Service 36 Meir – Longton – City Centre – Burslem – Tunstall – Kidsgrove
Value excluding VAT: £260,000
27-Mar-26

J
S091/9: Service 36 Meir – Longton – City Centre – Burslem – Tunstall – Kidsgrove
Service 36A Meir Park – Longton – City Centre – Burslem – Tunstall – Kidsgrove
Value excluding VAT: £338,000
27-Mar-26

K
S091/10: Service 36 Meir – Longton – City Centre – Burslem – Tunstall – Kidsgrove
Value excluding VAT: £58,300
27-Mar-26

L
S091/11: Service 36 Meir – Longton – City Centre – Burslem – Tunstall – Kidsgrove
Service 36A Meir Park – Longton – City Centre – Burslem – Tunstall – Kidsgrove
Value excluding VAT: £74,200
27-Mar-26

 

[SeanM1997]

I hope, whoever wins the 36/36A, looks to offer it as a service from Crewe - as a large town it can help reduce the overall cost and increase patronage whilst enhancing the proposed all town corridor

 

[markymark2000]

I've got the tender specs. PDF below with the timetables for those who are interested.

Lot A - Route 6, 1 trip from Hanley to Longton at 07:15
Lot B (Mon-Fri) & Lot C (Saturday) - Route 11 Evenings Hourly
Lot D - Route 23 Sundays hourly to Blurton (Existing 23 tender)
Lot E - Route 23 hourly Sundays to Newstead interworked with route 8 hourly to Ball Green (replacing existing 23 tender)
Lot F - Route 26 and 50 running the exact same as they are now.
Lot G - Route 26 running from Park Hall - Hanley hourly. Mon-Fri & Route 50 running Hanley - Lightwood Star and Garter Road every 70 minutes.
Lot H (Mon-Fri) & Lot K (Saturday) - Route 36 running evenings half hourly from Kidsgrove to Hanley via route 3. Some extensions to Meir Square via route 6
Lot J (Mon-Fri) & Lot L (Saturday) - Route 36 running evenings hourly from Kidsgrove to Hanley via route 3. Some extensions to Meir Square via route 6. Route 36A running hourly from Kidsgrove to Hanley with extensions to Meir Tesco via 6A route.

 

[SeanM1997]

That's very useful! I still hope First can bid to include Crewe even if an extra vehicle as enhances connectivity

Looking at Lot J:
Existing Hanley 1935-2034 Crewe could return doing Crewe 2051-2130 Kidsgrove 2130-2224 Meir / 36 Meir 2226-2255 Hanley / 36 Hanley 2305-2331 Kidsgrove

36C Hanley 2055-2121 Kidsgrove 2121-2154 Crewe / 36C Crewe 2155-2230 Kidsgrove 2230-2324 Meir

Others work as follows:
36 Hanley 1955-2021 Kidsgrove / EMPTY TO HANLEY / 36 Hanley 2100-2124 Meir / 36 Meir 2126-2221 Kidsgrove

36A Hanley 1930-1951 Meir / 36A Meir 1953-2051 Kidsgrove / 36A Kidsgrove 2100-2151 Meir / 36A Meir 2153-2251 Kidsgrove / 36 Kidsgrove 2300-2330 Hanley

36 Kidsgrove 1950-2020 Hanley / 36A Hanley 2030-2051 Meir / 36A Meir 2053-2151 Kidsgrove / 36A Kidsgrove 2200-2255 Meir

 

[James101]

How deeply uninspiring. For one of the biggest BSIP awards in the country, reinstating a bare minimum evening and Sunday service is really disappointing. There was some creative ideas in the original BSIP proposal, including a Wolstanton and Festival Park service, a northern city circular, services to Saxonfields and Meir Hay.

See 2023 proposals from page 106 of the published BSIP:

https://www.stoke.gov.uk/download/downloads/id/2206/stoke-on-trent_city_council_s_enhanced_partnership_plan_and_scheme.pdf

 

[SeanM1997]

How deeply uninspiring. For one of the biggest BSIP awards in the country, reinstating a bare minimum evening and Sunday service is really disappointing. There was some creative ideas in the original BSIP proposal, including a Wolstanton and Festival Park service, a northern city circular, services to Saxonfields and Meir Hay.

See 2023 proposals from page 106 of the published BSIP:

https://www.stoke.gov.uk/download/downloads/id/2206/stoke-on-trent_city_council_s_enhanced_partnership_plan_and_scheme.pdf

This is only Phase 1 and only for evening and limited Sunday services... there will be other phases out to tender soon enough

 

[mjc]

I’m looking forward to seeing the other phases but there’s some really bizarre stuff in here.

The tender for the 6 had to be one of the weirdest, a single journey covering just half the route running only 15 minutes before the next service over the same route and timed to arrive into Longton at exactly the time the train leaves for Stoke/Crewe. Admittedly you’d probably be able to catch the 7:34 towards Derby but why not run it 5-10 minutes earlier and improve the connections. And what’s the bus supposed to do once it’s there? Maybe it’s intended to be a positioning journey for one of the other services but given both main operators could get into Longton much more easily direct from depot I don’t really buy that…

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I’m looking forward to seeing the other phases but there’s some really bizarre stuff in here.

The tender for the 6 had to be one of the weirdest, a single journey covering just half the route running only 15 minutes before the next service over the same route and timed to arrive into Longton at exactly the time the train leaves for Stoke/Crewe. Admittedly you’d probably be able to catch the 7:34 towards Derby but why not run it 5-10 minutes earlier and improve the connections. And what’s the bus supposed to do once it’s there? Maybe it’s intended to be a positioning journey for one of the other services but given both main operators could get into Longton much more easily direct from depot I don’t really buy that…

Given the number of holes in the service frequencies throughout the Potteries, it is indeed strange to pick out that particular journey.
Current southbound departures from Hanley:

0630 - 6A

0730 - 6A

0745 - 6

0800 - 6A

Useful would be journeys from most estates in the south of the city to the main warehouse parks at shift times eg to Whittle Road on the 6A, to Trentham Lakes, to Chesterton - similar to the 37 but picking up in other areas.

One example, service 4/4A inbound to Hanley (via Festival Park) from Newcastle and residential areas up the A34 (times are published arrival into Hanley):

0630
big gap!
0730
0755
0810
not quite as big a gap!
0840
0850

I’m looking forward to seeing the other phases but there’s some really bizarre stuff in here.

The tender for the 6 had to be one of the weirdest, a single journey covering just half the route running only 15 minutes before the next service over the same route and timed to arrive into Longton at exactly the time the train leaves for Stoke/Crewe. Admittedly you’d probably be able to catch the 7:34 towards Derby but why not run it 5-10 minutes earlier and improve the connections. And what’s the bus supposed to do once it’s there? Maybe it’s intended to be a positioning journey for one of the other services but given both main operators could get into Longton much more easily direct from depot I don’t really buy that…

There is nothing immediately obvious to build it into from either of the main operators. The nearest is an 0759 start (at Longton) on the 22. Obviously having got to Longton at 0729 it could go private to pick up service elsewhere. At the opposite end there is nothing 'hanging around' at Hanley that this could be added to, plenty of other Hanley starts (by First at least) around that time already.

 

[stait.john]

33826-33830 due to transfer to Halifax

 

[G760XRE]

33826-33830 due to transfer to Halifax

Are First Potteries losing the Cheadle school services? Or are the ex York Streetdecks plus spare constellation ones going to be used from now on?

 

[43055]

Are First Potteries losing the Cheadle school services? Or are the ex York Streetdecks plus spare constellation ones going to be used from now on?

Presumably the 4 remaining streetdecks at York will come over as replacements.

 

[dodecahedron67]

Presumably the 4 remaining streetdecks at York will come over as replacements.

Correct

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Announced today, a revised 25 timetable from 3 March due to roadworks. Details on the First Potteries website under forthcoming timetables. It doesn't say what the revised route is but it adds several minutes to the journey times. Of interest is an hourly Sunday evening service, not currently provided.

 

[43055]

Announced today, a revised 25 timetable from 3 March due to roadworks. Details on the First Potteries website under forthcoming timetables. It doesn't say what the revised route is but it adds several minutes to the journey times. Of interest is an hourly Sunday evening service, not currently provided.

A welcome return for the Sunday evening service and the weekday one is now every 40 min compared with the random times it is now. I presume more details about the roadworks will be known soon but would this not affect the 21/23 and D&G routes as well?

 

[Baxenden Bank]

A welcome return for the Sunday evening service and the weekday one is now every 40 min compared with the random times it is now. I presume more details about the roadworks will be known soon but would this not affect the 21/23 and D&G routes as well?

Yes I guess it will affect other routes. The only clues are the announcement (below) and that the timing point towards Hanley is Sixth Form College rather than Stoke Station. Clicking on the link in the timetable this is the stop before the traffic lights.

We’re making changes to the timetable on service 25 from Sunday 3 March.
This is in preparation for when Station Road closes around mid March. The buses will need extra time to complete the diversion route between Stoke Station and Hanley.

 

[mjc]

Announced today, a revised 25 timetable from 3 March due to roadworks. Details on the First Potteries website under forthcoming timetables. It doesn't say what the revised route is but it adds several minutes to the journey times. Of interest is an hourly Sunday evening service, not currently provided.

The only sensible route is to continue along Leek Road to Joiner's Square and then up Lichfield Street, but who knows if they'll take the sensible option and it's really congested at times so even with extra time it'll be interesting to see if they can keep to time.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

The only sensible route is to continue along Leek Road to Joiner's Square and then up Lichfield Street, but who knows if they'll take the sensible option and it's really congested at times so even with extra time it'll be interesting to see if they can keep to time.

That would be the normal diversion route (accidents etc).

The online roadworks directory (one.network) has various roadworks for two years between Hanley and Glebe Street.

The 'standard' (cough) off-peak times add seven minutes outbound and nine minutes inbound on the Hanley to Stoke Station section. There are also lesser changes throughout the route including an additional seven minutes from Keele to Newcastle inbound. The net impact is that the timetable requires an additional two buses through the day. The morning peak still requires an additional four buses but the afternoon peak now only requires three extra buses (instead of four), the saving being achieved by the frequency ex-Keele becoming every 12 minutes instead of every 10. Overall the equivalent of two complete round trips are lost over the course of the day.

 

[SeanM1997]

I notice the no. 3 (Crewe - Hanley) is often very busy between Kidsgrove and Hanley, given the decent patronage between Crewe/Alsager and Hanley making commuting not fun for North Potteries

At what point do you think First Potteries would consider an X3 bus route between Crewe and Hanley, operating via A500, as an hourly service (2 buses required) to relieve pressure on the 3 and allow the 3 to be for shorter journeys and X3 for point-to-point?

Its also disappointing that the last 3 on Saturdays from Crewe is at 1841, meaning 2 further buses terminate at Crewe and run empty to Hanley, instead of offering a later evening service

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I notice the no. 3 (Crewe - Hanley) is often very busy between Kidsgrove and Hanley, given the decent patronage between Crewe/Alsager and Hanley making commuting not fun for North Potteries

At what point do you think First Potteries would consider an X3 bus route between Crewe and Hanley, operating via A500, as an hourly service (2 buses required) to relieve pressure on the 3 and allow the 3 to be for shorter journeys and X3 for point-to-point?

Never, unless you paid them bucketfuls of money and dragged the horse to water and made it think. Or, option b, another operator started such a service.

If the bus was always full and standing, with people being left behind, they would enjoy the profit being made and not increase the frequency or capacity by using larger buses. Speculate to accumulate does not appear in the First Group School of Management handbook. It is a business run by head office bean counters who (may) know the cost of everything and it's contribution to the group bottomline but not the (difficult to monetise) value of customer satisfaction or the effect of customer dis-satisfaction when poor service causes customers to walk away from their services. That has been the case for decades. The bus I used to get to work on (mainline Longton to Stoke) left people behind every day. The same people every day. What always amazed me was that those people kept coming back for more daily abuse by a monopolistic operator. When competition came along (Moorland Rover, Matthews Motors etc,) all of a sudden additional anti-competitive services appeared.

Its also disappointing that the last 3 on Saturdays from Crewe is at 1841, meaning 2 further buses terminate at Crewe and run empty to Hanley, instead of offering a later evening service

Yes, it is disappointing, that is how they work. The bus working back out-of-service is accounted for somehow but the potential for revenue generation by offering a more attractive service is not. I would suggest that when those specific journeys were withdrawn someone looked at the numbers, it wasn't earning £45 per hour, so they determined the service to be unprofitable. The fact that the bus now runs back totally empty and earning exactly £0 per hour but costing more than that (albeit rather quicker from Crewe than if in service but not much quicker on other routes) is neither here nor there in the land of everything must make £45.

When First had lots of buses finishing after the evening peak and running empty to Adderley Green, they refused to run those buses in service because "it would cost them an additional two minutes to turn the ticket machine around" (perhaps five, can't recall) that they would have to pay for. So again the buses ran empty, earning £0 per hour, the service offered to Bentilee was (still is) abysmal and any hopeful passengers would stand there wondering why they could only have a bus every hour. The same happened inbound in the morning. Both are still the case but with a significantly reduced PVR there are less of them.

 

[Lewisham2221]

I notice the no. 3 (Crewe - Hanley) is often very busy between Kidsgrove and Hanley, given the decent patronage between Crewe/Alsager and Hanley making commuting not fun for North Potteries

At what point do you think First Potteries would consider an X3 bus route between Crewe and Hanley, operating via A500, as an hourly service (2 buses required) to relieve pressure on the 3 and allow the 3 to be for shorter journeys and X3 for point-to-point?

Its also disappointing that the last 3 on Saturdays from Crewe is at 1841, meaning 2 further buses terminate at Crewe and run empty to Hanley, instead of offering a later evening service

There's absolutely no way that a Crewe - Hanley express would pay its way. You're also asking for trouble, routing any bus service via the A500. The patronage on the Crewe - Kidsgrove section has only fairly recently improved due to the £2 fares scheme. The fact that it has a lot of intermediate passengers is exactly what makes it a successful corridor. It's also the reason why the 3A Butt Lane service exists, to assist the Talke Pits and Crewe services by providing extra Kidsgrove - Hanley capacity.

The 1 hour earlier finish on a Saturday is indeed bizarre, considering there is also a later bus on Sundays.

 

[mjc]

At what point do you think First Potteries would consider an X3 bus route between Crewe and Hanley, operating via A500, as an hourly service (2 buses required) to relieve pressure on the 3 and allow the 3 to be for shorter journeys and X3 for point-to-point?

There's the train for direct travel between Crewe and Stoke, already running twice an hour. Admittedly it comes at a greater cost than the bus but much quicker and more reliable. Of you only make the journey occasionally then the extra cost probably doesn't matter, and if you're a regular commuter then you'd probably prefer the extra hour of time than save the fiver, and less once the bus subsidies stop...

 

[SeanM1997]

There's the train for direct travel between Crewe and Stoke, already running twice an hour. Admittedly it comes at a greater cost than the bus but much quicker and more reliable. Of you only make the journey occasionally then the extra cost probably doesn't matter, and if you're a regular commuter then you'd probably prefer the extra hour of time than save the fiver, and less once the bus subsidies stop...

The journey between Stoke Railway Station and Hanley though is quite an uphill walk or a bus journey which defeats the bus - whereas a A500 bus would take approximately 40-45 minutes in total which is competitive to train when factoring town to city time and still allows the 3 corridor to cater for local journeys

 

[mjc]

The journey between Stoke Railway Station and Hanley though is quite an uphill walk or a bus journey which defeats the bus - whereas a A500 bus would take approximately 40-45 minutes in total which is competitive to train when factoring town to city time and still allows the 3 corridor to cater for local journeys

You're right if it's people actually wanting to come from Crewe to central Hanley, but how many people actually is that? If you're in Crewe and want to shop you could get just as quickly into Manchester and have a million times better experience than Hanley. If you're coming for the colleges or university the rail station's closed. If you're coming for work then chances are you don't work in the city centre and theres reasonable bus connections from Stoke rail station.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I wonder what the official route of the 25 is from today?
Where should one wait for the bus up 'anley duck? Outside Stoke Station or by the sorting office on Leek Road?
Google and Bustimes.org (marked stops and schedule) have it outbound from Hanley via Howard Place and Avenue Road, inbound via Leek Road and Lichfield Street. Bustimes tracking has it via Howard Place and Avenue Road in both directions.

Lets have a look at the First Potteries website to see what updates they give:

We’re making changes to the timetable on service 25 from Sunday 3 March.
This is in preparation for when Station Road closes around mid March. The buses will need extra time to complete the diversion route between Stoke Station and Hanley.
The new timetable can be viewed here .

So reference to a diversion route, so a bit of a warning, but no information on what that route may be or when it comes in to effect - with the timetable change or at some date in the middle of the month.

 

[Simon75]

I notice the no. 3 (Crewe - Hanley) is often very busy between Kidsgrove and Hanley, given the decent patronage between Crewe/Alsager and Hanley making commuting not fun for North Potteries

At what point do you think First Potteries would consider an X3 bus route between Crewe and Hanley, operating via A500, as an hourly service (2 buses required) to relieve pressure on the 3 and allow the 3 to be for shorter journeys and X3 for point-to-point?

Its also disappointing that the last 3 on Saturdays from Crewe is at 1841, meaning 2 further buses terminate at Crewe and run empty to Hanley, instead of offering a later evening service

I think there were the odd journey years ago, but can't find a source at the moment

 

[Martin2012]

My understanding is that the loadings on the 3 are lighter from the Crewe end with the service becoming busier the nearer you get to Hanley. That's certainly been my experience when I've done the whole route. Last time I did the whole route (on a Friday morning back in February 2022), the service actually became full and standing somewhere in between Kidsgrove and Hanley.

Its a shame First no longer run back from Crewe to Hanley in service on the last 2 journeys and also think its odd that the last journey is earlier on a Saturday than on a Sunday. At least the last journey from Hanley actually runs all the way to Crewe and doesn't stop short at Radway Green.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

My understanding is that the loadings on the 3 are lighter from the Crewe end with the service becoming busier the nearer you get to Hanley. That's certainly been my experience when I've done the whole route. Last time I did the whole route (on a Friday morning back in February 2022), the service actually became full and standing somewhere in between Kidsgrove and Hanley.

Its a shame First no longer run back from Crewe to Hanley in service on the last 2 journeys and also think its odd that the last journey is earlier on a Saturday than on a Sunday. At least the last journey from Hanley actually runs all the way to Crewe and doesn't stop short at Radway Green.

Don't give them ideas / reminders of previous habits.

I don't think a humanoid looks at these things logically any longer. The AI software says run the last bus earlier on a Saturday so earlier it runs. Perhaps it meets some automated criteria for vehicle daily mileage, passenger numbers carried or conveniently fits to planned drivers hours. I doubt that AI knows that the last bus is earlier on a Saturday than on other days, or understands that consistency of last bus time may actually be important to passenger numbers on that later bus the other six days of the week i.e. that people may have a shift finish at 1800 each day of the week and if they can't travel on Saturday they also stop travelling Monday to Friday too. The same applies to early mornings, evenings generally and Sundays. It's a whole service or no service for most.

 

[Martin2012]

Here in Bristol there is one route where the last journey is currently earlier an hour earlier on Saturday than on Sunday. On the same service the last journey terminates at that town centre's bus station on Monday to Friday but extends to a housing estate on Sundays. However, both issues are being rectified from April. I'd really be interested to explore what the AI software does and how much influence it directly has over scheduling decisions.
Once the last two journeys from Hanley reach Crewe, do they overnight in Crewe somewhere or just run light back down the motorway to Adderley Green?

Also if anyone is able to answer I'd be interested to find out, what are the main passenger flows on the 3, assuming there are not many passengers who do the whole route? Am I right in thinking its mainly Crewe to Alsager and Kidsgrove to Hanley?

 

[Simon75]

My understanding is that the loadings on the 3 are lighter from the Crewe end with the service becoming busier the nearer you get to Hanley. That's certainly been my experience when I've done the whole route. Last time I did the whole route (on a Friday morning back in February 2022), the service actually became full and standing somewhere in between Kidsgrove and Hanley.

Its a shame First no longer run back from Crewe to Hanley in service on the last 2 journeys and also think its odd that the last journey is earlier on a Saturday than on a Sunday. At least the last journey from Hanley actually runs all the way to Crewe and doesn't stop short at Radway Green.

Yes you're correct; it gets busier from Kidsgrove to Hanley.