First South West (Kernow & Buses of Somerset)

[TheGrandWazoo]

Wrong! They’re commercial registrations.

That's interesting, given that they didn't have a winter Sunday evening service before. I may be wrong but prior to March, was the only FK bus out on a Sunday night was the Falmouth - University shuttle? Also, am I right in thinking that the M6/A17 interwork - the timings suggest so.

 

[Whiteway215]

As we haven’t heard about any further bus acquisitions lately can we assume Kernow now have all they require?

 

[Busaholic]

That's interesting, given that they didn't have a winter Sunday evening service before. I may be wrong but prior to March, was the only FK bus out on a Sunday night was the Falmouth - University shuttle? Also, am I right in thinking that the M6/A17 interwork - the timings suggest so.

Thus raising the possibility of Solos operating the A17? Has happened on rare occasions before - better than the regular A17 bus going on to the M6 of course, with consequent non-serving of Mousehole Harbour.

 

[MB162435]

That's interesting, given that they didn't have a winter Sunday evening service before. I may be wrong but prior to March, was the only FK bus out on a Sunday night was the Falmouth - University shuttle? Also, am I right in thinking that the M6/A17 interwork - the timings suggest so.

Find it funny how it took the formation of TfC for Kernow to suddenly realise they can afford to register all these late night services, that before they needed Council money to run

All positive news all the same, any new service registrations are of course welcomed these days

 

[On the Buses]

Find it funny how it took the formation of TfC for Kernow to suddenly realise they can afford to register all these late night services, that before they needed Council money to run

All positive news all the same, any new service registrations are of course welcomed these days

It’s what’s called pragmatism

 

[Goldfish62]

Wrong! They’re commercial registrations.

Sorry, but that's just ridiculous. There's no way those journeys are commercial. It's obviously just a blocker stopping TfC from running them for whatever reason.

 

[Westnat]

Sorry, but that's just ridiculous. There's no way those journeys are commercial. It's obviously just a blocker stopping TfC from running them for whatever reason.

How do you know? Have you got the figures to back up your opinion?

 

[On the Buses]

Sorry, but that's just ridiculous. There's no way those journeys are commercial. It's obviously just a blocker stopping TfC from running them for whatever reason.

Commercial as in they’ve been registered / provided commercially
The operator has decided that there is a commercial case to include those journeys within their route provision.
that’s very different from your black and white interpretation of what ‘commercial’ means, or how an operator determines the wider commercial basis for a route or network.

 

[M803UYA]

Commercial as in they’ve been registered / provided commercially
The operator has decided that there is a commercial case to include those journeys within their route provision.
that’s very different from your black and white interpretation of what ‘commercial’ means, or how an operator determines the wider commercial basis for a route or network.

Considering FK is selling a network, there could be sound logic for commercially registering peripheral journeys on evenings/Sundays. You can then sell network tickets and offer a wider level of service than just concentrating on the daytimes. It could grow season ticket sales in people buying them as they don't just have the daytime services to use. Stagecoach used to have megarider tickets which were transferable for just this reason.
It could be viewed cynically as a spoiler, but FK will have data on where their customers are to help make such decisions, whereas we're all on the outside guessing!

 

[Goldfish62]

How do you know? Have you got the figures to back up your opinion?

Anyone with any clue of the economics of bus operation would realise that journeys that have not operated for years since the council withdrew the subsidy are not suddenly going to pay their way at a time of unprecedented decline in passenger numbers nationwide. I don't need data to know that.

It could be viewed cynically as a spoiler, but FK will have data on where their customers are to help make such decisions, whereas we're all on the outside guessing!

Well of course it's a spoiler. Nothing wrong with that, but don't for one moment think that FK have some magic formula that no other operator in the UK has.

Commercial as in they’ve been registered / provided commercially
The operator has decided that there is a commercial case to include those journeys within their route provision.
that’s very different from your black and white interpretation of what ‘commercial’ means, or how an operator determines the wider commercial basis for a route or network.

The commercial case for anything ended in March. We're currently in a fake situation where everything is on on life support and the industry is facing an existential crisis. I dread to think what's going to happen to bus services when the government pulls the plug on the coronavirus grant (CBSSG).

 

[Busaholic]

For 'being provided commercially' substitute 'being provided at operator's expense'. I'm not a critic of the position, generally speaking, and feel it reaches back to the very beginnings of bus operation and entrepreneurship, and no worse for that.

 

[Goldfish62]

For 'being provided commercially' substitute 'being provided at operator's expense'. I'm not a critic of the position, generally speaking, and feel it reaches back to the very beginnings of bus operation and entrepreneurship, and no worse for that.

I'm not critical of it. It's perfectly legitimate, but it would be naive to think that such registrations actually make money. If it weren't for the coronavirus grant it would doubtful that they'd even cover their marginal costs.

For those who still doubt that these and some other registrations are spoilers I would ask them to ponder why when all winter evening Sunday services were withdrawn several years ago when the council pulled support are some now suddenly worth running without council subsidy at the very time that TfC supported journeys were about to commence.

As I say nothing wrong with the tactics, all perfectly above board under the Transport Act 1985, and it saves the taxpayer money, but it's curious why, for example, the A2 plus M6 and A17 Sunday evenings are worth running at a time of unprecedented downturn in revenue, yet restoration of full daytime services on the T1/T2 and U2 are not.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Hmmm.... this is an interesting one, and I'm about to get splinters in my @r5e

On one level, I'm surprised that these services are commercially sustainable. FK may have historic data on them but it will be some years old. Can't recall when they lost Winter Sunday evening services (2014, from a quick google?). Therefore, I can see why that and the timing might support a view of it being a spoiler, and it's something we've seen countless times across the UK and across they yeras.

That said, MMH et al have a record in developing services (see Southern Vectis) and doing things that seem pretty unlikely, such as a comprehensive Christmas Day network, so perhaps it is also part of a genuine plan to develop these routes further?

Whatever the motives, I guess the council benefits and so do passengers from inter availability of tickets so a positive step, however you wish to look at it.

 

[richw]

That said, MMH et al have a record in developing services (see Southern Vectis) and doing things that seem pretty unlikely, such as a comprehensive Christmas Day network, so perhaps it is also part of a genuine plan to develop these routes further?

There is also the recent appointment of a further senior manager focusing on network improvements

 

[baza585]

Hmmm.... this is an interesting one, and I'm about to get splinters in my @r5e

On one level, I'm surprised that these services are commercially sustainable. FK may have historic data on them but it will be some years old. Can't recall when they lost Winter Sunday evening services (2014, from a quick google?). Therefore, I can see why that and the timing might support a view of it being a spoiler, and it's something we've seen countless times across the UK and across they yeras.

That said, MMH et al have a record in developing services (see Southern Vectis) and doing things that seem pretty unlikely, such as a comprehensive Christmas Day network, so perhaps it is also part of a genuine plan to develop these routes further?

Whatever the motives, I guess the council benefits and so do passengers from inter availability of tickets so a positive step, however you wish to look at it.

I'm not clear on whether if FK hadn't registered the evening journeys, would they have automatically gone to TfC, or would they have been tendered? If the latter, then I am a bit surprised FK deemed them commercial (although as you say, MMH has done it before with SV, but if the former I can well see why they have done it; TfC could quote a silly price and take in the council's money. If this is the situation, then the deal the council have done looks even more silly!

 

[Goldfish62]

Hmmm.... this is an interesting one, and I'm about to get splinters in my @r5e

On one level, I'm surprised that these services are commercially sustainable. FK may have historic data on them but it will be some years old. Can't recall when they lost Winter Sunday evening services (2014, from a quick google?). Therefore, I can see why that and the timing might support a view of it being a spoiler, and it's something we've seen countless times across the UK and across they yeras.

That said, MMH et al have a record in developing services (see Southern Vectis) and doing things that seem pretty unlikely, such as a comprehensive Christmas Day network, so perhaps it is also part of a genuine plan to develop these routes further?

Whatever the motives, I guess the council benefits and so do passengers from inter availability of tickets so a positive step, however you wish to look at it.

Yes, I agree with all that!

I'm not clear on whether if FK hadn't registered the evening journeys, would they have automatically gone to TfC, or would they have been tendered? If the latter, then I am a bit surprised FK deemed them commercial (although as you say, MMH has done it before with SV, but if the former I can well see why they have done it; TfC could quote a silly price and take in the council's money. If this is the situation, then the deal the council have done looks even more silly!

The initial registrations that TfC made in March and associated timetables on Traveline showed the Sunday evening journeys as running winter only, so it appears that they were tendered along with everything else. One of the councils many press releases cited reintroduction of winter Sunday evening services as an aim.

 

[richw]

For what is a relatively short journey on the A17 with only a couple of round trips, it isn’t a big cost to add them on the end of the day time service. Looking at the timetable I’d expect the Sunday evening a17 to interwork with the M6 using M6 Solos which are relatively economical buses. Having a rough idea of hourly running costs it isn’t a big expense to run them.
Operating the evening service may well attract More day time travellers too who may have been put off travelling by lack of evening service.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

For what is a relatively short journey on the A17 with only a couple of round trips, it isn’t a big cost to add them on the end of the day time service. Looking at the timetable I’d expect the Sunday evening a17 to interwork with the M6 using M6 Solos which are relatively economical buses. Having a rough idea of hourly running costs it isn’t a big expense to run them.
Operating the evening service may well attract More day time travellers too who may have been put off travelling by lack of evening service.

I guess if you're running them on for an extra 4/5 hours on a marginal cost basis, you're still looking at a couple of hundred quid. FK clearly believe it's worth doing whether it's for tactical or entrepreneurial reasons.

Perhaps more curious (to me) is that the council were to reinstate Sunday evening buses on those routes yet the main Tinner route wasn't, or have I missed something? I know that there's the parallel train service but with the money saved with these commercial registrations, perhaps the council might have the money for two buses running between Truro and Camborne on a Sunday night?

 

[richw]

I guess if you're running them on for an extra 4/5 hours on a marginal cost basis, you're still looking at a couple of hundred quid. FK clearly believe it's worth doing whether it's for tactical or entrepreneurial reasons.

Looking at the average fare without knowing exact fares down that end it’s not a massive number of passengers needed.
Another scenario to consider Drivers on full time contracts are guaranteed 39 hours paid a week, If there is any lines that don’t add up then potentially there won’t be need for additional staff cost. With the cut in open top frequency for winter there is inevitably spare drivers at Penzance being paid for doing less work.
The vehicles main running costs will have been covered during the rest of the week. Potentially looking at marginal wear and tear and diesel to run a few hours on a Sunday evening. The little solos do 12-15mpg easily, possibly more. (Estimate based on Known usage of a Long SR On my college run)

 

[Busaholic]

Hmmm.... this is an interesting one, and I'm about to get splinters in my @r5e

On one level, I'm surprised that these services are commercially sustainable. FK may have historic data on them but it will be some years old. Can't recall when they lost Winter Sunday evening services (2014, from a quick google?). Therefore, I can see why that and the timing might support a view of it being a spoiler, and it's something we've seen countless times across the UK and across they yeras.

That said, MMH et al have a record in developing services (see Southern Vectis) and doing things that seem pretty unlikely, such as a comprehensive Christmas Day network, so perhaps it is also part of a genuine plan to develop these routes further?

Whatever the motives, I guess the council benefits and so do passengers from inter availability of tickets so a positive step, however you wish to look at it.

Another factor is the invisible elephant in the room. AFAIK the plans for Cornwall Council to develop plans to help bus operators to significantly reduce the price of bus travel within specified zones, and perhaps between them, have only been 'delayed' and just might be implemented within our lifetimes. With proper publicity, including the timetables, this might help to make winter evening (and all other) travel on buses much more popular in an area where most of the population have low incomes, all dependent on Covid and Tiers of course.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Looking at the average fare without knowing exact fares down that end it’s not a massive number of passengers needed.
Another scenario to consider Drivers on full time contracts are guaranteed 39 hours paid a week, If there is any lines that don’t add up then potentially there won’t be need for additional staff cost. With the cut in open top frequency for winter there is inevitably spare drivers at Penzance being paid for doing less work.
The vehicles main running costs will have been covered during the rest of the week. Potentially looking at marginal wear and tear and diesel to run a few hours on a Sunday evening. The little solos do 12-15mpg easily, possibly more. (Estimate based on Known usage of a Long SR On my college run)

I was purely looking at the marginal cost (wages incl. on cost, fuel and tyres). Wasn't thinking of the usual other considerations e.g. contribution to fixed cost, depreciation, etc.

 

[Goldfish62]

For what is a relatively short journey on the A17 with only a couple of round trips, it isn’t a big cost to add them on the end of the day time service. Looking at the timetable I’d expect the Sunday evening a17 to interwork with the M6 using M6 Solos which are relatively economical buses. Having a rough idea of hourly running costs it isn’t a big expense to run them.
Operating the evening service may well attract More day time travellers too who may have been put off travelling by lack of evening service.

I really think the coronavirus grant will have made a difference in the calculations as well. Taking the M6 with four return trips at 11 km (my estimate) each that's an income of £44 before fares revenue so depending on the pay agreement and cut of the duties on Sundays it's conceivable that it can wash its face even if buses run around empty most of the time, which I suspect they will.

So I conclude that somewhat perversely, the business case is stronger for these journeys now due to coronavirus funding than it would have been if that bl**dy virus never existed.

Views from my learned thread contributors?

 

[richw]

I really think the coronavirus grant will have made a difference in the calculations as well. Taking the M6 with four return trips at 11 km (my estimate) each that's an income of £44 before fares revenue so depending on the pay agreement and cut of the duties on Sundays it's conceivable that it can wash its face even if buses run around empty most of the time, which I suspect they will.

So I conclude that somewhat perversely, the business case is stronger for these journeys now due to coronavirus funding than it would have been if that bl**dy virus never existed.

Views from my learned thread contributors?

Does the covid fund cover new commercial journeys? I understood it only contributed to journeys that exisited commercially pre-March.

 

[Goldfish62]

Does the covid fund cover new commercial journeys? I understood it only contributed to journeys that exisited commercially pre-March.

I may be wrong, but I understand it does as long as the journeys gave the blessing of the relevant local authority. In this case the council would really have no choice but to agree, given the journeys what would otherwise be supported journeys and thus considered socially necessary. No doubt a few raised eyebrows at the council though!

 

[richw]

I may be wrong, but I understand it does as long as the journeys gave the blessing of the relevant local authority. In this case the council would really have no choice but to agree, given the journeys what would otherwise be supported journeys and thus considered socially necessary. No doubt a few raised eyebrows at the council though!

Trying to work out where it would have interworked from during the day if TFC ran it. As it’s effectively half a duty to cover the evenings does it leave TfC with half a duty somewhere else, thus inconveniencing them slightly?

 

[Goldfish62]

Trying to work out where it would have interworked from during the day if TFC ran it. As it’s effectively half a duty to cover the evenings does it leave TfC with half a duty somewhere else, thus inconveniencing them slightly?

Could be a blessing in disguise for GSW. It would have either meant opening Penzance depot specially on Sunday evenings, or a lot of dead running from Scorrier.

As well as the ticketing benefits passengers also benefit from having the right size buses to access Mousehole Harbour. TfC would have terminated at the Coastguards. Not ideal when you want to pour yourself out of the Ship Inn straight on to a bus.

 

[richw]

Whilst driving through Bodmin earlier caught a glimpse of another Gemini coming out the paint shop in fleet green. Possibly Sf54osj, definitly a SF54 though

 

[Lizard1324]

We know that all the gemini will eventually be painted and the ones needed will get a new interior but do we know if any already painted buses will get some TLC for example the 3 uni e400 or maybe the painted plaxton presidents (might be too old now).
Also will the remaining optare solo in barbie colour go green or mousehole colours or not at all.

 

[83G/84D]

Whilst driving through Bodmin earlier caught a glimpse of another Gemini coming out the paint shop in fleet green. Possibly Sf54osj, definitly a SF54 though

32546 ( SF54 OSJ) has appeared in Camborne in green, possibly the one you saw.

 

[richw]

32546 ( SF54 OSJ) has appeared in Camborne in green, possibly the one you saw.

Yes it will be. Was 95% sure it was OSJ