First South West (Kernow & Buses of Somerset)

[Goldfish62]

Are all the school contracts operated by First handed back registered as bus services? If not they will not appear on Bus Times.

I have absolutely no idea. I haven't even looked at the list of routes on Bustimes.

 

[Andyh82]

Are all the school contracts operated by First handed back registered as bus services? If not they will not appear on Bus Times.

As far as I’m aware everything that First Kernow run is listed on BusTimes

None of the schools or Duchy college services ever track live BusTimes, but the timetables are shown

I think the FirstBus OpenData is like that nationwide, up where I am in West Yorkshire they are even timetables shown for the swimming baths contracts

 

[JKP]

As far as I’m aware everything that First Kernow run is listed on BusTimes

None of the schools or Duchy college services ever track live BusTimes, but the timetables are shown

I think the FirstBus OpenData is like that nationwide, up where I am in West Yorkshire they are even timetables shown for the swimming baths contracts

Thanks. Living in an area no longer served by First I was not aware of that.

 

[Fletcj10]

Was passing through Yeovil yesterday and snaffled a few shots. The old depot is being pulled apart though odd bits of new building going on with breeze block walls??

At the new depot, the Exmoor fleet is in storage

Where is the new depot? I work for first and this is news to me

 

[Whiteway215]

Where is the new depot? I work for first and this is news to me

Watercombe Lane, Lynx West Trading Estate,Yeovil,BA20 2SU

Formerly Dairy Crest depot I believe.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

FSW have failed to win back any of their Cornwall school contracts that they handed back early. That's 24 routes no longer operated after July.

Source: screenshot of staff notice.

Forum rules on accessibility prevent me posting the screenshot.

That is going to have quite the impact on contribution to overhead unless, of course, they were losing so much money. I think you can foresee the closure of some sites - not so certain that they're in full close down mode yet.

 

[GBM]

Staff rumours indicate that First want to pull out of Cornwall. Anything profitable will come under the Truronian 'brand'.
Yet Cornwall used to be very profitable, especially the T1 and T2's, running every ten minutes.
Yet now they are running down the T's (and just about everything else).

 

[Andyh82]

It all stems from the award of tendered services to Go Ahead. Now everywhere in Cornwall that had one depot/outstation now has two, often round the corner from each other, with two lots of overheads for the same overall work.

Cornwall can’t sustain two major operators, it’s noticeable the only time First in Cornwall received decent investment was in the period between Western Greyhound closing and the 2020 TfC launch. Both before that and after that it’s been mostly cascades from elsewhere.

I’d question if any of the ‘branded’ seasonal operations were ever that successful, as they never came back the next year in an unchanged form. They were either one season wonders or massively altered. How many half baked Sunseeker services have they had, or the various versions of The Lizard. Even the Land’s End Coaster kept changing frequency and operating dates, and that’s the only one where First have a near monopoly. The Atlantic Coaster now has the 56 running on top of it, so two buses for the same set of passengers. Traditionally there would never have been 2 buses an hour to Padstow.

 

[JKP]

It all stems from the award of tendered services to Go Ahead. Now everywhere in Cornwall that had one depot/outstation now has two, often round the corner from each other, with two lots of overheads for the same overall work.

Cornwall can’t sustain two major operators, it’s noticeable the only time First in Cornwall received decent investment was in the period between Western Greyhound closing and the 2020 TfC launch. Both before that and after that it’s been mostly cascades from elsewhere.

I’d question if any of the ‘branded’ seasonal operations were ever that successful, as they never came back the next year in an unchanged form. They were either one season wonders or massively altered. How many half baked Sunseeker services have they had, or the various versions of The Lizard. Even the Land’s End Coaster kept changing frequency and operating dates, and that’s the only one where First have a near monopoly. The Atlantic Coaster now has the 56 running on top of it, so two buses for the same set of passengers. Traditionally there would never have been 2 buses an hour to Padstow.

I tend to agree with you. What is now required is a franchise to include commercial and contract operations for the whole of Cornwall including the cross boundary routes into Devon. Smaller franchises for school and college routes would also be needed.

 

[Goldfish62]

It all stems from the award of tendered services to Go Ahead. Now everywhere in Cornwall that had one depot/outstation now has two, often round the corner from each other, with two lots of overheads for the same overall work.

Cornwall can’t sustain two major operators, it’s noticeable the only time First in Cornwall received decent investment was in the period between Western Greyhound closing and the 2020 TfC launch. Both before that and after that it’s been mostly cascades from elsewhere.

I’d question if any of the ‘branded’ seasonal operations were ever that successful, as they never came back the next year in an unchanged form. They were either one season wonders or massively altered. How many half baked Sunseeker services have they had, or the various versions of The Lizard. Even the Land’s End Coaster kept changing frequency and operating dates, and that’s the only one where First have a near monopoly. The Atlantic Coaster now has the 56 running on top of it, so two buses for the same set of passengers. Traditionally there would never have been 2 buses an hour to Padstow.

The heart of the issue was First's response to the loss of the supported work. Instead of reducing overheads by closing depots and reducing the workforce (eg through TUPE to GoAhead) in order to maintain the viability of the remaining commercial network they instead retained everything and introduced some rather dubious new commercial initiatives, eg Daytripper, Lizard network. This was under their "2020 Vision" plan. Even when Covid struck that didn't stop them doing some rather surprising stuff like retaining the whole Lands End Coaster loop throughout the winter for one year.

Regarding the branded seasonal operations, the Lands End Coaster was the one that since its massive enhancement in 2016 remained stable really until a couple of years ago. And now it's decimated. In respect of the 56 and Atlantic Coaster, it's actually the other way around. The 56 has the Atlantic Coaster running on top of it. Prior to 2020 First ran the supported 56 as the A5 Atlantic Coaster. The route was tendered and won by GA as the 56. It was then that First decided to register a new commercial Atlantic Coaster over the top of it. Because the Coaster missed out St Mawgan, St Eval and Constantine Bay the council was unable to withdraw the 56 (as they did with the 7 when First extended the LEC beyond the summer season), thus duplication resulted over nearly all of, but not the whole route.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Staff rumours indicate that First want to pull out of Cornwall. Anything profitable will come under the Truronian 'brand'.
Yet Cornwall used to be very profitable, especially the T1 and T2's, running every ten minutes.
Yet now they are running down the T's (and just about everything else).

I doubt that Cornwall has ever been very profitable. It's difficult to look at the old First accounts for the area (as you have to separate out the North Devon and Plymouth ops, and the Somerset ops in there) but First Devon & Cornwall/First South West was not a superb performer.

Just looking at @Andyh82's comments (and backed up by @Goldfish62), they hit on something that I've long thought - it is just an opinion but here goes.

The Alex Carter/Marc Morgan Huws era had two distinct parts.

• From 2014 to 2019, it was putting the business on a firm footing. In fact, First had already closed North Devon and gained tenders from Western Greyhound. However, they then looked to move things forward by cutting off the loss making Devon ops by selling to Stagecoach (and so mitigate exit costs), competed against Webberbus in Somerset and eventually pushed them out of business and did the same against Western Greyhound. They were also able to obtain investment from First Group, underpinned by commitments from Cornwall Council, and they did a lot of good stuff in developing the operations and image with the Tinner fleet (which is when the 14/18 were dropped from 10 to 15 mins) plus other developments. However, even in the best year (2019), half the profits came from a dividend from Somerset Passenger Solutions.
• Then came two things almost simultaneously. Covid was one and when you're still only running at 85% of previous patronage, that makes marginal work challenging but even more so when costs are increasing faster than overall inflation.
  • However, I think the failure to win the Cornwall tenders was a much more important issue than was made out at the time. They effectively lost guaranteed income and contribution to fixed overheads. There were comments at the time that sounded like a dumped boyfriend saying that they'd find someone prettier and fitter... Talking about losing low margin work, and they could focus on higher margin operations - all part of Vision 2020.
  • At the time, I think I said that some were marginal (like Falmouth Coaster) whilst I was always very sceptical about Exeter City Tour and the Lizard network (though these weren't helped by poor reliability with elderly vehicles). That was another issue - operational issues that weren't a feature before suddenly were, like the overoptimistic DayTripper network or the Newquay sunseeker.
  • Instead, this period was a strange time (albeit fabulous for the gricer) where liveries were suddenly introduced, a flurry of super-annuated open toppers appeared, and you had strange moves like the King Harry Coaches acquisition, the Minehead open top travel office, the Lands End bus/waiting room, and even the conversion of a Solo to an open air format.

I have always been one to praise the efforts of AC/MMH in the earlier period. However, like a football manager who stays "true to their attacking principles" even though they're getting beaten by improved teams, it seemed like they didn't really respond to the changing circumstances.

I don't think they'll be upping sticks just yet but it'll be an interesting period. The Cornwall tenders come up in 2028 (IIRC) and so the tender process will probably commence mid 2026? Be interesting to see what happens but Cornwall is difficult operating territory and, like earlier posters, it is difficult to sustain two major operators in that area.

 

[Fletcj10]

Watercombe Lane, Lynx West Trading Estate,Yeovil,BA20 2SU

Formerly Dairy Crest depot I believe.

Thank you very much!

 

[Kath123]

Sunday services have been much asked for in Yeovil so it remains to be seen if the people who have been crying out for them are actually going to bother using them!

The 51 route in Yeovil is my local bus route and I understand it will be getting a Sunday service. I certainly intend to use it.

For someone like me who is visually impaired with no ability to drive it could make quite a difference.

I will be interested to find out how frequent the service will be though given the 51 on a Saturday only runs every 45 minutes currently.

Was passing through Yeovil yesterday and snaffled a few shots. The old depot is being pulled apart though odd bits of new building going on with breeze block walls??

At the new depot, the Exmoor fleet is in storage

Interesting - so the Yeovil depot has vehicles in storage and is not short of them? Recently drivers in Yeovil and the social media team have been using shortage of vehicles as a reason for cancellations.

Even if these are open top vehicles any bus is better than no bus. The downstairs I assume is still under cover…..

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The 51 route in Yeovil is my local bus route and I understand it will be getting a Sunday service. I certainly intend to use it.

For someone like me who is visually impaired with no ability to drive it could make quite a difference.

I will be interested to find out how frequent the service will be though given the 51 on a Saturday only runs every 45 minutes currently.



Interesting - so the Yeovil depot has vehicles in storage and is not short of them? Recently drivers in Yeovil and the social media team have been using shortage of vehicles as a reason for cancellations.

Even if these are open top vehicles any bus is better than no bus. The downstairs I assume is still under cover…..

Those vehicles aren’t licensed nor have they been serviced.

 

[fgwrich]

I doubt that Cornwall has ever been very profitable. It's difficult to look at the old First accounts for the area (as you have to separate out the North Devon and Plymouth ops, and the Somerset ops in there) but First Devon & Cornwall/First South West was not a superb performer.

Just looking at @Andyh82's comments (and backed up by @Goldfish62), they hit on something that I've long thought - it is just an opinion but here goes.

The Alex Carter/Marc Morgan Huws era had two distinct parts.

• From 2014 to 2019, it was putting the business on a firm footing. In fact, First had already closed North Devon and gained tenders from Western Greyhound. However, they then looked to move things forward by cutting off the loss making Devon ops by selling to Stagecoach (and so mitigate exit costs), competed against Webberbus in Somerset and eventually pushed them out of business and did the same against Western Greyhound. They were also able to obtain investment from First Group, underpinned by commitments from Cornwall Council, and they did a lot of good stuff in developing the operations and image with the Tinner fleet (which is when the 14/18 were dropped from 10 to 15 mins) plus other developments. However, even in the best year (2019), half the profits came from a dividend from Somerset Passenger Solutions.
• Then came two things almost simultaneously. Covid was one and when you're still only running at 85% of previous patronage, that makes marginal work challenging but even more so when costs are increasing faster than overall inflation.
  • However, I think the failure to win the Cornwall tenders was a much more important issue than was made out at the time. They effectively lost guaranteed income and contribution to fixed overheads. There were comments at the time that sounded like a dumped boyfriend saying that they'd find someone prettier and fitter... Talking about losing low margin work, and they could focus on higher margin operations - all part of Vision 2020.
  • At the time, I think I said that some were marginal (like Falmouth Coaster) whilst I was always very sceptical about Exeter City Tour and the Lizard network (though these weren't helped by poor reliability with elderly vehicles). That was another issue - operational issues that weren't a feature before suddenly were, like the overoptimistic DayTripper network or the Newquay sunseeker.
  • Instead, this period was a strange time (albeit fabulous for the gricer) where liveries were suddenly introduced, a flurry of super-annuated open toppers appeared, and you had strange moves like the King Harry Coaches acquisition, the Minehead open top travel office, the Lands End bus/waiting room, and even the conversion of a Solo to an open air format.

I have always been one to praise the efforts of AC/MMH in the earlier period. However, like a football manager who stays "true to their attacking principles" even though they're getting beaten by improved teams, it seemed like they didn't really respond to the changing circumstances.

I don't think they'll be upping sticks just yet but it'll be an interesting period. The Cornwall tenders come up in 2028 (IIRC) and so the tender process will probably commence mid 2026? Be interesting to see what happens but Cornwall is difficult operating territory and, like earlier posters, it is difficult to sustain two major operators in that area.

Much as some of it pains me, this is an excellent write up of the situation and the rise and fall of Cornwall by Kernow. I really do feel it’s a crying shame that some of the good strong elements of the MMH / AC Era are being not just swept away but demolished, and sadly ending up leaving Cornwall as a shadow of its former self. That said, whilst I thought the Lizard was a great idea sadly hampered by Covid, the less said about ‘Daytripper’ or Sunseaker (particularly the whacky Solo and E200 conversions) the better.

During my recent trip to the county (and I’ll be back next month!), it was noticeable that things just aren’t what they were. I was planning a trip via Fowey but gave up due to the poor connections between Rail and the 24 / 25 (IIRC wasn’t it alternating but half hourly at one point?), the fleet seemed somewhat unloved and the timetables either having ridiculous amount of slack in it or, as other have mentioned, ridiculously tight (noticeably on the U4). However, whilst First Group’s vehicles felt unloved, they didn’t seem as shabby as the rag tag bunch operated on the tendered services operated by GoCornwall. Most seemed to be rough in appearance (such as this E200 with something hanging off the rear), mechanically rough (screaming E200s down to the Lizard) or very basic specifications with no usb sockets or working information - I had one E200 happily telling me about PCB changes in Plymouth… upon returning from the Lizard.

 

[Goldfish62]

very basic specifications with no usb sockets or working information - I had one E200 happily telling me about PCB changes in Plymouth… upon returning from the Lizard.

No buses in Cornwall have working next stop info. The 2018 and 2019 deliveries to First had it initially, but it was soon switched off and removed.

In order to be compliant with current regulations the Mousehole Sprinters and the newest GoCornwall buses have been fitted with the necessary equipment, but it's not yet operational.

 

[Snozzel]

Much as some of it pains me, this is an excellent write up of the situation and the rise and fall of Cornwall by Kernow. I really do feel it’s a crying shame that some of the good strong elements of the MMH / AC Era are being not just swept away but demolished, and sadly ending up leaving Cornwall as a shadow of its former self. That said, whilst I thought the Lizard was a great idea sadly hampered by Covid, the less said about ‘Daytripper’ or Sunseaker (particularly the whacky Solo and E200 conversions) the better.

During my recent trip to the county (and I’ll be back next month!), it was noticeable that things just aren’t what they were. I was planning a trip via Fowey but gave up due to the poor connections between Rail and the 24 / 25 (IIRC wasn’t it alternating but half hourly at one point?), the fleet seemed somewhat unloved and the timetables either having ridiculous amount of slack in it or, as other have mentioned, ridiculously tight (noticeably on the U4). However, whilst First Group’s vehicles felt unloved, they didn’t seem as shabby as the rag tag bunch operated on the tendered services operated by GoCornwall. Most seemed to be rough in appearance (such as this E200 with something hanging off the rear), mechanically rough (screaming E200s down to the Lizard) or very basic specifications with no usb sockets or working information - I had one E200 happily telling me about PCB changes in Plymouth… upon returning from the Lizard.

The dangly bit is most likely some unstuck red gaffa tape. It is on lots of buses in various states of adhesion. I think go Cornwall's supply of red was only matched in quantity by western greyhounds’ green back in the day.

 

[83G/84D]

The dangly bit is most likely some unstuck red gaffa tape. It is on lots of buses in various states of adhesion. I think go Cornwall's supply of red was only matched in quantity by western greyhounds’ green back in the day.

Still plenty of red tape in evidence.

 

[stuu]

Just saw two brand new Yutong electric buses (double and single decker) in Taunton in the space of 5 minutes, training/testing runs... So the launch must be fairly soon

 

[Goldfish62]

Just saw two brand new Yutong electric buses (double and single decker) in Taunton in the space of 5 minutes, training/testing runs... So the launch must be fairly soon

The ones at Weston entered service a couple of days ago, so hopefully very soon now.

 

[DaveHarries]

The ones at Weston entered service a couple of days ago, so hopefully very soon now.

I wonder if they will simply do a depot launch only (as at Weston) or whether they will put one of each (1x U11DD and 1x E12) on display in central Taunton for the public to have a nose at. I am keeping my ears open: if they do the latter on a day with decent weather I may go have a look myself.

Dave

 

[YorkRailFan]

First has announced fare changes for Truro Park & Ride from 1 April in line with Cornwall Council:

In-line with Cornwall Council's charging policy, the ticket prices for the Park and Ride service will change from 1st April 2025. Please see below for the revised fares.

Multi-Day Tickets (Days not necessarily consecutive)Price
5 Day Ticket (equivalent to £2.34 per day)£11.70
20 Day Ticket (equivalent to £2.12 per day)£42.40
60 Day Ticket (equivalent to £1.74 per day)£104.50
Expiration dates will apply, see First Bus App for details.

TypeMonday to Saturday
Day Ticket£2.50
Family Day Ticket

2 Adults, up to 4 children (5-15)

£5.00
Group Saver Ticket

Available after 0900 Monday to Saturday

Up to 5 adults

£6.40
Under 5sFree
Valid PLUSBUS ticket holderFree

Truro Park & Ride Ticket Prices Revised from 1st April 2025

In-line with Cornwall Council's charging policy, the ticket prices for the Park and Ride service will change from 1st April 2025. Please see below for the revised fares.

www.firstbus.co.uk

Doesn't seem bad, the multi-day tickets still look like good value.

 

[DaveHarries]

One thing which BoS haven't mentioned on their changes is something regarding Service 30 (Taunton - Axminster).

The registration, as I understand it, is for changes to route and timetable. The map on bustimes.org has been changed to indicate a change of route which will see it rerouted between Lisieux Way and Henlade (Falcon Cross) to operate via. Chestnut Drive, Haydon Lane, Haydon, Stoke Road, Henlade Village to join the A358, thereby indicating that at least some journeys (I guess the evening ones will still operate their current route) and will miss out Blackbrook Way, Hamilton Road, Toneway and Taunton Gateway. I wonder if traffic at peak times on the Toneway is having an impact on punctuality of the service.

30 - Taunton - Axminster via Ilminster, Chard

First Buses of Somerset

bustimes.org

EDIT, 24/03/2024: Meanwhile a news article from FSW informs that one of the new electrics will be on show in central Taunton this coming Thursday, 27th March, at Castle Green, Taunton (TA1 4AD) between 10am and 1pm. Surprising that they seem only set to use one vehicle for it: I would have thought they would use one of each (ie. 1x U11DD and 1x E12) for the launch.

We’re electric! Come and join ‘the buzz’ of Somerset’s new electric bus fleet | FirstBusS&SW News

The countdown is on for the arrival of electric buses! Residents are invited to a sneak peak of the new zero emissions buses ahead of 26 electric buses taking to key bus routes across Somerset in April.

news-ssandsw.firstbus.co.uk

Dave

 

[Lizard1324]

Anyone know when Cornwall is due its electric buses?

 

[Poiuytre]

Some interesting developments on the filing history of Truronian Ltd

 

[aswilliamsuk]

Looks like it is being shuffled around within First, or at least being separated from First South West. Bearing in mind there are now significant other coaching operations in the group, have any of those changed as well?

 

[Volvodart]

Looks like it is being shuffled around within First, or at least being separated from First South West. Bearing in mind there are now significant other coaching operations in the group, have any of those changed as well?

It appears to be outwith First Bus too and ownership/directors leads directly to Firstgroup plc. side of things.

 

[83G/84D]

The ones at Weston entered service a couple of days ago, so hopefully very soon now.

Staff that I spoke to today seemed to think that the launch of electric buses into service would be around 20th April coinciding with the timetable changes.

Staff still need training and buses require preparation for service.

Anyone know when Cornwall is due its electric buses?

The OTS example is due in 3-4 weeks with the park and ride ones later on this year.

 

[DaveHarries]

I was down in Taunton today too and was glad for the opportunity to have a look at one of these U11DD buses: I liked it. It was permissible to sit at the controls and I thought the drivers' space was nicely laid out as were, I thought, the controls although I didn't think the placing of the panic alarm was too clever because, as someone did, it isn't too hard to press it accidentally although if you do then it isn't too hard to reset. I tried out the seating on the top deck and was glad not only for the legroom, which seemed good as did the seats, but also for the fact that I could stand up straight without having to bend my head but only just - the top of my head was touching the ceiling. I look forward to trying one of these vehicles out should I have occasion to venture to WSM or into Taunton but my local routes in the First WoE area aren't getting them.

It was only after 30004 - the bus being shown at Castle Green - departed that I realised I had left my camera onboard. Fortunately I encountered a driver in the Town Centre who was just doing a changeover on the Streetlite being used for the 99: he called ops who in turn called the depot and a short walk to Hamilton Road secured the return of my camera. While I was there I spoke with one of the First staff who had been at Castle Green and it seemed that 2 more U11DDs had arrived during the morning: a picture of one of them heading down the M5 had been put on FB Also the two electrics (30005 and 48501) being used for training returned while I was there so a few more photos were taken. The buses seen at the depot were 4x U11DD (YK25 OHO/OHP/OHT/OHW) and E10 (?) 48501 (YK25 OHX).

Dave

 

[DaveLondon]

Just saw two brand new Yutong electric buses (double and single decker) in Taunton in the space of 5 minutes, training/testing runs... So the launch must be fairly soon

Yes next week