First South West (Kernow & Buses of Somerset)

[richw]

Where will the other buses go? Those routes in and out of Taunton won't use up too many of the 25. Could it be that another First subsidiary operating in the county gets some?

The 21 and 28 both need 6 buses, the 22 needs 4 so that's 16. 4 for the town routes, a couple spare, and if they include the X22 then that's most of them accounted for

Presumably the longer routes might need vehicle swaps through the day due to range, increasing PVR.

 

[Ryan H]

The 21 and 28 both need 6 buses, the 22 needs 4 so that's 16. 4 for the town routes, a couple spare, and if they include the X22 then that's most of them accounted for

the 28 needs 7

 

[RELL6L]

Presumably the longer routes might need vehicle swaps through the day due to range, increasing PVR.

Aren’t most of the 28s outstationed at Minehead overnight? It would be challenging to schedule charging only at Taunton if they don’t have a facility at Minehead, which would surely not be economic.

 

[Ryan H]

Aren’t most of the 28s outstationed at Minehead overnight? It would be challenging to schedule charging only at Taunton if they don’t have a facility at Minehead, which would surely not be economic.

I think so but in the coming months, the Exmoor Coaster's take up some of the room there

 

[vla50]

Which B9s are transferring to Cornwall from Manchester? What's the overall PVR reduction from next weekend?

 

[Fin447]

Which B9s are transferring to Cornwall from Manchester? What's the overall PVR reduction from next weekend?

Supposed to be getting Norwich B9s instead now

 

[vla50]

Supposed to be getting Norwich B9s instead now

Do you know how many are due in?

 

[Fin447]

Do you know how many are due in?

No sorry

 

[richw]

Which B9s are transferring to Cornwall from Manchester? What's the overall PVR reduction from next weekend?

None of them. Cornwall is due to get 11 and 12 plate B9 Gemini from Norwich when their electric buses are up and running

 

[Goldfish62]

None of them. Cornwall is due to get 11 and 12 plate B9 Gemini from Norwich when their electric buses are up and running

Around 60 of the 70 Electroliners due are already in service.

 

[Accelerator59]

I can see a few of them on the Tinner routes already

 

[Whiteway215]

There was a recent post on the Travel West Yorkshire Forum stating that as First West Yorkshire Halifax had received a number of E400s transferred from Oldham and Potteries, B7TLs would be withdrawn from Halifax, some B9TLs would be for resale and a few B9TLs would be going to First South West.

 

[Goldfish62]

There was a recent post on the Travel West Yorkshire Forum stating that as First West Yorkshire Halifax had received a number of E400s transferred from Oldham and Potteries, B7TLs would be withdrawn from Halifax, some B9TLs would be for resale and a few B9TLs would be going to First South West.

Maybe things have changed again, but the last plan I was told was B9s from Norwich, the reason being that they're newer.

The cast-offs from Oldham would only last 3-4 years max before having to be replaced by yet another batch of near-life-expired junk.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Maybe things have changed again, but the last plan I was told was B9s from Norwich, the reason being that they're newer.

The cast-offs from Oldham would only last 3-4 years max before having to be replaced by yet another batch of near-life-expired junk.

That said, 11 and 12 plates would still have a reasonable chunk of net book value rather than fully depreciated stuff. As a passenger, I have to say that either the Oldham or Norwich vehicles have suffered from the lack of a mid life refurbishment.

 

[Goldfish62]

That said, 11 and 12 plates would still have a reasonable chunk of net book value rather than fully depreciated stuff. As a passenger, I have to say that either the Oldham or Norwich vehicles have suffered from the lack of a mid life refurbishment.

But (notwithstanding the fleet of mid-life E400MMCs) if Cornwall can only survive as a business on fully depreciated buses that have to be towed into Camborne every 5 minutes that's a depressing state of affairs.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

But (notwithstanding the fleet of mid-life E400MMCs) if Cornwall can only survive as a business on fully depreciated buses that have to be towed into Camborne every 5 minutes that's a depressing state of affairs.

To be honest, the delivery of the MMCs was unprecedented.

Western National/First has long had a history of somewhat mature deckers being sent to "upgrade" the fleet. In the 1970s, it was 15 year old Atlanteans heading from Trent and Maidstone & District, and lest we forget the ex Southampton ones too.

Some cascades were a bit newer like the DMSs, or the ex Thamesway VRs but the finances are quite thin. Of course, be thankful that nothing compares to the ex Grampian Atlanteans... a low point IMO

 

[richw]

To be honest, the delivery of the MMCs was unprecedented.

Western National/First has long had a history of somewhat mature deckers being sent to "upgrade" the fleet. In the 1970s, it was 15 year old Atlanteans heading from Trent and Maidstone & District, and lest we forget the ex Southampton ones too.

Some cascades were a bit newer like the DMSs, or the ex Thamesway VRs but the finances are quite thin. Of course, be thankful that nothing compares to the ex Grampian Atlanteans... a low point IMO

The oldest current B7TL Geminis are only 19-20 years old,
The Olympians when psvar killed them off the oldest were 23 years old, the newest 18 years old which I imagine would have kept going if it wasn’t for psvar.
The older Tridents were 19-20 years old.
The VRs were 25-28 years old when withdrawn.

These rumoured B9 Gemini 2s at 13 years old will be like new for Cornwall, and only 3 years older than the majority of the MMCs

 

[Andyh82]

The oldest current B7TL Geminis are only 19-20 years old,
The Olympians when psvar killed them off the oldest were 23 years old, the newest 18 years old which I imagine would have kept going if it wasn’t for psvar.
The older Tridents were 19-20 years old.
The VRs were 25-28 years old when withdrawn.

These rumoured B9 Gemini 2s at 13 years old will be like new for Cornwall, and only 3 years older than the majority of the MMCs

I agree, I think people have unrealistic expectations and the definition of “life expired junk” seems to get wider all the time. It was only before Covid when Kernow was dominated by 02 plate ex London presidents

11/12 plate B9TLs should be good to work until the end of the decade meaning they might actually paint them and possibly even refurbish them

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The oldest current B7TL Geminis are only 19-20 years old,
The Olympians when psvar killed them off the oldest were 23 years old, the newest 18 years old which I imagine would have kept going if it wasn’t for psvar.
The older Tridents were 19-20 years old.
The VRs were 25-28 years old when withdrawn.

These rumoured B9 Gemini 2s at 13 years old will be like new for Cornwall, and only 3 years older than the majority of the MMCs

I agree, I think people have unrealistic expectations and the definition of “life expired junk” seems to get wider all the time. It was only before Covid when Kernow was dominated by 02 plate ex London presidents

11/12 plate B9TLs should be good to work until the end of the decade meaning they might actually paint them and possibly even refurbish them

I think @Goldfish62 was talking about receiving ex Oldham B9s rather than the Norwich ones, which would be 2008/9 vintage.

However, it's true that Cornwall has long had some of the oldest deckers. A large schools and college requirement drives that - it's just that those vehicles do escape onto some service work.

 

[83G/84D]

Has anyone heard when we can expect to see the first cascades of buses from elsewhere?

 

[Goldfish62]

The oldest current B7TL Geminis are only 19-20 years old,

*only*??!!

I agree, I think people have unrealistic expectations and the definition of “life expired junk” seems to get wider all the time. It was only before Covid when Kernow was dominated by 02 plate ex London presidents

11/12 plate B9TLs should be good to work until the end of the decade meaning they might actually paint them and possibly even refurbish them

I was talking about the Oldham ones. The Norwich ones would of course be a good intake, as you say lasting for a good few more years yet.

The Olympians when psvar killed them off the oldest were 23 years old, the newest 18 years old which I imagine would have kept going if it wasn’t for psvar.
The older Tridents were 19-20 years old.
The VRs were 25-28 years old when withdrawn.

I really wouldn't want to go back to the bad old days of First Devon and Cornwall when Cornwall was where First's buses went to die.

The Olympians and VRs (as much as I like VRs) overstayed their welcome and presented a very poor image of bus travel to the non-enthusiast. It felt like First didn't care about Cornwall and were about to chuck in the towel. Do we really want to go back to that?

Most of the B7s are as old now as the last of the 02 plate Tridents were when they were withdrawn. In 3-4 years time the Oldham B9s will be at that age.

I think @Goldfish62 was talking about receiving ex Oldham B9s rather than the Norwich ones, which would be 2008/9 vintage.

However, it's true that Cornwall has long had some of the oldest deckers. A large schools and college requirement drives that - it's just that those vehicles do escape onto some service work.

Although it's odd that the E400s are often to be found on college workings while 20 year old B7s are out all day on the formerly-flagship T1 and T2!

 

[richw]

Although it's odd that the E400s are often to be found on college workings while 20 year old B7s are out all day on the formerly-flagship T1 and T2!

After many breakdowns and a 28 day improvement notice the e400mmcs ended up on several duchy college runs. They’re certainly all that get seen on the 2 Plymouth to duchy services since the improvement notice was issued.
Things got so bad on duchy and Bicton with breakdowns that the college was sounding out other operators to step in.
I gather since the warning notice that things have improved

I really wouldn't want to go back to the bad old days of First Devon and Cornwall when Cornwall was where First's buses went to die.

We pretty much are back at that place now. End of life vehicles turning up for 2-3 years.

 

[jammy36]

To be honest, the delivery of the MMCs was unprecedented.

Western National/First has long had a history of somewhat mature deckers being sent to "upgrade" the fleet. In the 1970s, it was 15 year old Atlanteans heading from Trent and Maidstone & District, and lest we forget the ex Southampton ones too.

Some cascades were a bit newer like the DMSs, or the ex Thamesway VRs but the finances are quite thin. Of course, be thankful that nothing compares to the ex Grampian Atlanteans... a low point IMO

The MMCs really were a step-change from what went before. It's a pity that the company's finances are such that the delivery of the MMCs hasn't really been built upon. I'd hoped they might have acted as a springboard that would see the cycle of importing mid to end of life double deckers broken. In an ideal environment what we should now be seeing in a healthy business is those MMCs being replaced on the core Tinner services. Then, rather than bringing in vehicles from outside, the existing fleet of mid-life (or at least approaching mid life) vehicles cascaded to less high profile routes. That the Tinner which remains a well-used core interurban route can't support renewed investment doesn't bode well.

 

[Goldfish62]

The MMCs really were a step-change from what went before. It's a pity that the company's finances are such that the delivery of the MMCs hasn't really been built upon. I'd hoped they might have acted as a springboard that would see the cycle of importing mid to end of life double deckers broken. In an ideal environment what we should now be seeing in a healthy business is those MMCs being replaced on the core Tinner services. Then, rather than bringing in vehicles from outside, the existing fleet of mid-life (or at least approaching mid life) vehicles cascaded to less high profile routes. That the Tinner which remains a well-used core interurban route can't support renewed investment doesn't bode well.

One issue was the massive intake of 90 vehicles in a disproportionately short time, which is now doing no favours to the fleet age profile. Ideally you want a trickle of new buses every couple of years, with the oldest ones dropping off the bottom.

It's true that the Tinner routes and their predeccessors historically gained new or nearly vehicles on a regular basis and normally they would be due an upgrade now. However, post-Covid the routes are clearly not what they were because you're just as likely to travel on a 54-plate Gemini or even a short Solo.

After many breakdowns and a 28 day improvement notice the e400mmcs ended up on several duchy college runs. They’re certainly all that get seen on the 2 Plymouth to duchy services since the improvement notice was issued.
Things got so bad on duchy and Bicton with breakdowns that the college was sounding out other operators to step in.
I gather since the warning notice that things have improved

That's the problem with 50% of the local bus fleet being old bangers. It's an uphill struggle for the engineers to keep them on the road.

 

[Snozzel]

The MMCs really were a step-change from what went before. It's a pity that the company's finances are such that the delivery of the MMCs hasn't really been built upon. I'd hoped they might have acted as a springboard that would see the cycle of importing mid to end of life double deckers broken. In an ideal environment what we should now be seeing in a healthy business is those MMCs being replaced on the core Tinner services. Then, rather than bringing in vehicles from outside, the existing fleet of mid-life (or at least approaching mid life) vehicles cascaded to less high profile routes. That the Tinner which remains a well-used core interurban route can't support renewed investment doesn't bode well.

Don't forget that in order to get new buses now even if it was feasible,they would need to be electric, which isnt really about to happen anytime soon on such long routes

 

[Goldfish62]

Don't forget that in order to get new buses now even if it was feasible,they would need to be electric, which isnt really about to happen anytime soon on such long routes

What's the typical daily mileage of a bus on eg the Tinner routes or the U1?

 

[thedorsetone]

Don't forget that in order to get new buses now even if it was feasible,they would need to be electric, which isnt really about to happen anytime soon on such long routes

This would be the right time to actually buy new diesel vehicles while they are still available.

 

[Goldfish62]

This would be the right time to actually buy new diesel vehicles while they are still available.

Diesels will be around for a good few years yet, but First have a policy of new electrics only.

 

[Snozzel]

What's the typical daily mileage of a bus on eg the Tinner routes or the U1?

Not sure but both routes (with the new extensions to tinners) exceed 50km in one direction.

 

[thedorsetone]

Diesels will be around for a good few years yet, but First have a policy of new electrics only.

A policy I believe they have already broken.