First South West (Kernow & Buses of Somerset)

[Goldfish62]

I've had sight of a rather grim letter to FSW staff from the management. Helston outstation is planned to close to fund an improved pay offer (the previous one was rejected).

The letter paints a completely dire picture of the financial position for FSW, although mentions that Somerset is a stronger performer, while Cornwall is heavily loss-making and First Bus is not prepared to prop up loss-making parts of the business. Further cuts and closures will be required if the improved pay offer is rejected.

Sounds to me like it's back to 2010/11 when First was considering pulling out of Cornwall.

 

[richw]

I've had sight of a rather grim letter to FSW staff from the management. Helston outstation is planned to close to fund an improved pay offer (the previous one was rejected).

The improved offer is only an extra 3p an hour on the previously rejected amount according to a driver I spoke to last night.

Drivers very unhappy with the manner of the letter, and RMT deeming it as blackmail to accept the offer, assuming you’ve seen the same one that was forwarded to me

Ballot going out to drivers on Tuesday for strike action

 

[OptareOlympus]

The improved offer is only an extra 3p an hour on the previously rejected amount according to a driver I spoke to last night.

Drivers very unhappy with the manner of the letter, and RMT deeming it as blackmail to accept the offer, assuming you’ve seen the same one that was forwarded to me

Ballot going out to drivers on Tuesday for strike action

Has the offer got them any closer to Go Cornwall rates?

 

[richw]

Has the offer got them any closer to Go Cornwall rates?

3 pence closer!

13.65 is current offer that’s on the table.
The letter sent to staff highlights rates of pay in other industries such as hospitality but the manager from FSW who’s written the letter is claiming that hospitality is paying less than minimum wage by the rate she claims!

 

[OptareOlympus]

3 pence closer!

13.65 is current offer that’s on the table.
The letter sent to staff highlights rates of pay in other industries such as hospitality but the manager from FSW who’s written the letter is claiming that hospitality is paying less than minimum wage by the rate she claims!

If it paid sign on to sign off then that equals GA's £15 more or less but I'm guessing they have unpaid breaks at Kernow?

 

[Goldfish62]

3 pence closer!

13.65 is current offer that’s on the table.
The letter sent to staff highlights rates of pay in other industries such as hospitality but the manager from FSW who’s written the letter is claiming that hospitality is paying less than minimum wage by the rate she claims!

Yes, I picked up on that unlikely claim!

The improved offer is only an extra 3p an hour on the previously rejected amount according to a driver I spoke to last night.

Drivers very unhappy with the manner of the letter, and RMT deeming it as blackmail to accept the offer, assuming you’ve seen the same one that was forwarded to me

Ballot going out to drivers on Tuesday for strike action

Yes, same letter. It was hard to work out what the improved offer was. But I suppose 3p per hour is about all that would be yielded from closing a basic outstation.

I was rather surprised at the tone of the letter, I must say. If I was an in-scope employee I'd be both worried and angry. It really does feel as if First are prepared to do something very dramatic.

 

[OptareOlympus]

Yes, I picked up on that unlikely claim!


Yes, same letter. It was hard to work out what the improved offer was. But I suppose 3p per hour is about all that would be yielded from closing a basic outstation.

I was rather surprised at the tone of the letter, I must say. If I was an in-scope employee I'd be both worried and angry. It really does feel as if First are prepared to do something very dramatic.

The First strategy will be to scare employees into jumping ship to Go Ahead through fear of future job security. They can then scale back, close sites or withdraw entirely whilst avoiding as many redundancy payments as possible.

 

[Citistar]

The letter paints a completely dire picture of the financial position for FSW, although mentions that Somerset is a stronger performer, while Cornwall is heavily loss-making and First Bus is not prepared to prop up loss-making parts of the business.

I struggle to believe that Somerset is performing well. If that truly is the case, then the situation in Cornwall must be truly dire as Somerset is drifting along like a rudderless ship.

Surely one has to question what has gone wrong in the "promised land" of Cornwall following the introduction of the engineered competition funded by public money. Are those the clucks of chickens are coming home to roost i hear?

 

[Goldfish62]

The First strategy will be to scare employees into jumping ship to GA through fear of future job security. They can then scale back, close sites or withdraw entirely whilst avoiding as many redundancy payments as possible.

Sounds a highly plausible strategy.

Surely one has to question what has gone wrong in the "promised land" of Cornwall following the introduction of the engineered competition funded by public money. Are those the clucks of chickens are coming home to roost i hear?

I don't follow you on the bit in bold.

Quite apart from the Covid impact on the you have to wonder about losing all the contracted local bus work, yet not closing any depots to reduce overheads, plus some of the rather "brave" service initiatives that followed, and which didn't last long (or carry many passengers). I also wonder how the commercialised Truro and Penwith College services are performing.

 

[Andyh82]

Will First’s income have been dented by the various cheaper fares initiatives, both the national £2 and the TfC cheaper fares or are they adequately compensated?

Until 2019 fares were on the high side, I’m sure day tickets used to be at least £10

Whereas it might be true that Somerset is drifting along, I could see how it would be performing better. It’s been pared back, schedules are efficient with most buses out all day and college trips merged into service trips, there isn’t the high number of schools only boards like in Cornwall and it’s also it’s less seasonal.

Surely one has to question what has gone wrong in the "promised land" of Cornwall following the introduction of the engineered competition funded by public money. Are those the clucks of chickens are coming home to roost i hear?

The way they took all the contracted work off First and then used public money to set up a duplicate set of outstations has surely increased costs in the Cornwall bus industry overall

The number of depots and outstations must have doubled compared to 2019. Most locations now have two outstations sometimes next door to each other - Bodmin, Callington, Penzance, Helston. Redruth duplicates Camborne, Newquay Airport duplicates Summercourt

 

[Marcus Fryer]

The improved offer is only an extra 3p an hour on the previously rejected amount according to a driver I spoke to last night.

Drivers very unhappy with the manner of the letter, and RMT deeming it as blackmail to accept the offer, assuming you’ve seen the same one that was forwarded to me

Ballot going out to drivers on Tuesday for strike action

Will the proposed strike action cover Somerset as well, or only Cornwall?

 

[Goldfish62]

Will First’s income have been dented by the various cheaper fares initiatives, both the national £2 and the TfC cheaper fares or are they adequately compensated?

Until 2019 fares were on the high side, I’m sure day tickets used to be at least £10

Whereas it might be true that Somerset is drifting along, I could see how it would be performing better. It’s been pared back, schedules are efficient with most buses out all day and college trips merged into service trips, there isn’t the high number of schools only boards like in Cornwall and it’s also it’s less seasonal.

Operators are compensated for the fares schemes.

Remember that Somerset is receiving major investment in the shape electric buses next year. While they're part grant-funded they still represent an investment by First exceeding that of equivalent brand new buses.

Will First’s income have been dented by the various cheaper fares initiatives, both the national £2 and the TfC cheaper fares or are they adequately compensated?

Until 2019 fares were on the high side, I’m sure day tickets used to be at least £10

Whereas it might be true that Somerset is drifting along, I could see how it would be performing better. It’s been pared back, schedules are efficient with most buses out all day and college trips merged into service trips, there isn’t the high number of schools only boards like in Cornwall and it’s also it’s less seasonal.


The way they took all the contracted work off First and then used public money to set up a duplicate set of outstations has surely increased costs in the Cornwall bus industry overall

No, because GoAhead submitted the Most Economically Advantageous Tender (MEAT). Any other combination of bids from operators would have been less economically favourable.

One of the reasons that there has been so much duplication of operating centres is that FSW chose not to slim back when it lost its supported work, instead introducing a number of commercial initiatives, most of which appear to have been failures. Responsibility for that decision lies wholly with First.

 

[richw]

If it paid sign on to sign off then that equals GA's £15 more or less but I'm guessing they have unpaid breaks at Kernow?

Up to 80 mins unpaid break per duty. Believe GA is similar?

The First strategy will be to scare employees into jumping ship to Go Ahead through fear of future job security.

Theres 5 of us who worked the duchy and college contracts at callington/ Plymouth now at Stagecoach in Plymouth.

Until 2019 fares were on the high side, I’m sure day tickets used to be at least £10

From memory a First Cornwall day was £15 and a weekly £30.

From what I can gather part of the issue in Cornwall is lack of guaranteed incomes. With everything being predominantly commercial it’s heavily reliant on the fare box. Go have got their guaranteed income from the tenders.
There’s a lot of inefficient workings especially on schools and colleges, they wanted to bring in dedicated staff for the college and school contracts just being paid split shifts for the am and pm run. This plan failed and has resulted in full time staff who have to be paid for the whole day (less 80
Min unpaid break) covering schools and college duties. I’ve been gone 16 months now but was regularly covering a school duty that my entire day spread over and pay meant I was being paid more per day than the contract paid! That was before fuel and other costs were factored. The intent and idea for dedicated drivers on different term time split shift contracts was there but failed to be executed. They also then had to find me 40 hours a week during school holidays, and I was often given 8 hours to move a vehicle or two amongst depots. It became very tedious and boring once the novelty of doing very little for my money wore off.

 

[OptareOlympus]

How long would First have to hold out for before they can attempt to regain the contracted work?

From memory a First Cornwall day was £15 and a weekly £30.

Here lies the problem. £15 was actually really good value for unlimited travel on the Lands End circuit for one time tourists and they carried decent loads as the A1/2/3 group loop at that price point.

If the grant for the fare cap is nowhere near those numbers and if Cornwall have cut concessionary reimbursement then it starts to fall apart rapidly.

Interesting to see they have Lands End circuits running until 2230 in the summer. Is there demand for that or is it an attempt to create demand. Seems a strange decision given the nights get shorter from today.

 

[MarkC]

Just FYI, there is currently a strike ballot at Plymouth CityBus and Go Cornwall bus. If turnout and result are as planned, 'network halting' strikes are planned from Mid July https://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/news/plymouth-news/warning-plymouth-bus-chaos-drivers-9354762

Nearly 600 Plymouth bus drivers are being balloted for strike action over pay, union bosses have said. Unite predicted there could be “bus chaos” with strikes completely shutting down Plymouth’s bus network from July.

The union said the industrial action is being threatened because drivers working for Go-Ahead, which owns Plymouth Citybus and Go Cornwall, are demanding their wages be brought in line with colleagues in other parts of the country - where they are earning up to nearly £3 an hour more.

The union said that, for instance, Go-Ahead drivers in Oxford are currently paid £2.84 more an hour than the Plymouth drivers, while drivers in Brighton are paid £1.83 more. Even under Go-Ahead’s current 2024 offer for the Plymouth drivers, Oxford drivers would still be earning £2.24 an hour more, while drivers in Brighton would be paid £1.23 an hour more, the union said.

 

[richw]

Just FYI, there is currently a strike ballot at Plymouth CityBus and Go Cornwall bus. If turnout and result are as planned, 'network halting' strikes are planned from Mid July https://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/news/plymouth-news/warning-plymouth-bus-chaos-drivers-9354762

FSW strike ballots are going out to staff on Tuesday.

Whereas the Go one could go either way, I have a feeling the FSW one will only go one way.

 

[Goldfish62]

Just FYI, there is currently a strike ballot at Plymouth CityBus and Go Cornwall bus. If turnout and result are as planned, 'network halting' strikes are planned from Mid July https://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/news/plymouth-news/warning-plymouth-bus-chaos-drivers-9354762

That's just Plymouth, is it not? There's a separate pay agreement for Go Cornwall and it's RMT, not Unite.

How long would First have to hold out for before they can attempt to regain the contracted work?

The current contracts held by GoAhead expire in March 2028.

On the matter of the £2 national fare cap, which no operator is forced to take part in (although this is complicated by the EP and separate low fares pilot in Cornwall) it was only in force for the last 3 months of the latest (disastrous) published set of accounts.

 

[Andyh82]

Surely strike action will just add to the financial difficulties?

The bus industry isn’t like the rail industry. GWR could be on strike for 52 weeks and we know jobs or services wouldn’t be affected afterwards. Whereas bus operations could be completely closed down and services could be decimated particularly ‘nice to have’ ones like open top services

 

[Busaholic]

There’s a lot of inefficient workings especially on schools and colleges, they wanted to bring in dedicated staff for the college and school contracts just being paid split shifts for the am and pm run. This plan failed and has resulted in full time staff who have to be paid for the whole day (less 80
Min unpaid break) covering schools and college duties. I’ve been gone 16 months now but was regularly covering a school duty that my entire day spread over and pay meant I was being paid more per day than the contract paid! That was before fuel and other costs were factored. The intent and idea for dedicated drivers on different term time split shift contracts was there but failed to be executed. They also then had to find me 40 hours a week during school holidays, and I was often given 8 hours to move a vehicle or two amongst depots. It became very tedious and boring once the novelty of doing very little for my money wore off.

Thanks for sharing that, there's a lot to digest there. I've long been suspicious of the real sustainability of the model FSW have adopted, or forced to adopt, in Cornwall of fitting almost purely commercial services around the huge school/college contractual commitments. I do wonder whether Cornwall Council, and by implication Transport for Cornwall, would really rather just be dealing with one near-monopolistic bus operator, and nobody but Go-Ahead need apply for that role!

Whatever happens now will be for the worse for the bus passenger in Cornwall in the short and medium term.

 

[OptareOlympus]

Surely strike action will just add to the financial difficulties?

The bus industry isn’t like the rail industry. GWR could be on strike for 52 weeks and we know jobs or services wouldn’t be affected afterwards. Whereas bus operations could be completely closed down and services could be decimated particularly ‘nice to have’ ones like open top services

Almost all stage carriage revenue is direct government funding these days. Concessionary reimbursement, Fare Cap grants, BSOG (Bus Service Operators Grant), BSIP (Bus Service Improvement Plan) is all paid for by tax payers.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Almost all stage carriage revenue is direct government funding these days. Concessionary reimbursement, Fare Cap grants, BSOG (Bus Service Operators Grant), BSIP (Bus Service Improvement Plan) is all paid for by tax payers.

Aren’t the bus operators are on the hook for fixed overheads, depreciation etc whilst the rail operations are predominantly variable costs anyway?

 

[OptareOlympus]

Thanks for sharing that, there's a lot to digest there. I've long been suspicious of the real sustainability of the model FSW have adopted, or forced to adopt, in Cornwall of fitting almost purely commercial services around the huge school/college contractual commitments. I do wonder whether Cornwall Council, and by implication Transport for Cornwall, would really rather just be dealing with one near-monopolistic bus operator, and nobody but Go-Ahead need apply for that role!

Whatever happens now will be for the worse for the bus passenger in Cornwall in the short and medium term.

Go Ahead is not in a good condition either. The group's new owners are struggling under the debt interest payments. The offer was made and completed in those crucial months in 2022 before interest rates shot up and it transpires the funds used to take it private were all borrowed. Add in the colossal pension deficit, the impending end of the groups rail contracts under Labour and likely loss of Go Ahead London if Sadiq Khan does indeed take buses back in house, and things aren't looking great for Go Ahead either.

There was likely more truth than not in the Sunday Times report in February regarding the group being up for sale again already. I'm not linking that article as it behind a paywall, and was denied by Go Ahead in the UK.

 

[fgwrich]

Go Ahead is not in a good condition either. The group's new owners are struggling under the debt interest payments. The offer was made and completed in those crucial months in 2022 before interest rates shot up and it transpires the funds used to take it private were all borrowed. Add in the colossal pension deficit, the impending end of the groups rail contracts under Labour and likely loss of Go Ahead London if Sadiq Khan does indeed take buses back in house, and things aren't looking great for Go Ahead either.

There was likely more truth than not in the Sunday Times report in February regarding the group being up for sale again already. I'm not linking that article as it behind a paywall, and was denied by Go Ahead in the UK.

Perhaps the chickens are coming home to roost on the expansion front? Go-Ahead Group does seem to be forever purchasing smaller companies and integrating them into the bigger parts of the business, while also expanding where others have pulled out.

As for the troubles of Kernow, it's a real shame to see what felt like a business once on the brink, then turned around to become one of First's better performers, appear to be in the process of being kicked back into the gutter again.

 

[M803UYA]

Perhaps the chickens are coming home to roost on the expansion front? Go-Ahead Group does seem to be forever purchasing smaller companies and integrating them into the bigger parts of the business, while also expanding where others have pulled out.

As for the troubles of Kernow, it's a real shame to see what felt like a business once on the brink, then turned around to become one of First's better performers, appear to be in the process of being kicked back into the gutter again.

I suppose the next wheeze will be to remove the ADL Enviro 400 MMCs under this pretense of 'loss making' and dump them somewhere like Bristol or somewhere else higher populated - and then ship in a load of 12+year old stock as a replacement for the mainline services which they operate.

A real shame that First has no answers to decline other than to cut, cut and cut. All the while trumpeting how profitable it is.

 

[Goldfish62]

As for the troubles of Kernow, it's a real shame to see what felt like a business once on the brink, then turned around to become one of First's better performers, appear to be in the process of being kicked back into the gutter again.

Even while it was making a healthy trading profit it was (and still is) saddled with huge debt due to cash injected by Group to keep it afloat in previous years. So the company, while clearly going in the right direction prior to 2019 wasn't really as good a financial performer as it might appear.

 

[Goldfish62]

I suppose the next wheeze will be to remove the ADL Enviro 400 MMCs under this pretense of 'loss making' and dump them somewhere like Bristol or somewhere else higher populated - and then ship in a load of 12+year old stock as a replacement for the mainline services which they operate.

Potentially, although with the E400MMCs I'm not sure that other OpCos would necessarily automatically welcome a load of mid-life buses (which is what they are) being dumped on them to dig FSW out of a hole.

Not that the main-stream services are automatically the preserve of the E400s. 54-plate Geminis are more the order of the day on the Tinner routes! A 12 year old cascade would be an upgrade!

 

[M803UYA]

Even while it was making a healthy trading profit it was (and still is) saddled with huge debt due to cash injected by Group to keep it afloat in previous years. So the company, while clearly going in the right direction prior to 2019 wasn't really as good a financial performer as it might appear.

But surely that legacy debt from group affects all operating companies, not just South West? Other operating companies are better able to absorb that clearly.

As an aside, the company has been loss making for many years, starting in the early 2000s. By 2009 and the incursion into Plymouth the company had returned to a breakeven position - the instruction to invade Plymouth ended that process and saddled it with a lot of costs of newer buses and new services which didn't last too long beyond Citybus sale to Go Ahead. Someone in Aberdeen will have signed that expansion off, and instructed it be done. So you can't blame that on the then management team which almost corrected the problems the company had in the mid 2000s!

Only after Western Greyhound went did First South West become profitable. It is a surprise that their contract work isn't operated with part time staff as originally costed and planned. That'll lead a loss on the work in question. It is possible to have such people on your books, and to hook them in with an even paycheque 12 months of the year.

It does however need flexibility in rostering.

Since Alex Carter and Marc moved on, who now manages First South West at director level? Is that job shared with operating companies or are there day to day people making those decisions, rather than enacting them and running the operation?? If the answer is 'no one' then you can see why there's problems with the operation. It needed a unique approach for it to turn around, as did Somerset. Perhaps it always will do?

 

[Goldfish62]

But surely that legacy debt from group affects all operating companies, not just South West? Other operating companies are better able to absorb that clearly.

Not at all. Other OpCos didn't require a cash injection to prevent insolvency.

 

[henryb]

Perhaps the chickens are coming home to roost on the expansion front? Go-Ahead Group does seem to be forever purchasing smaller companies and integrating them into the bigger parts of the business, while also expanding where others have pulled out.

As for the troubles of Kernow, it's a real shame to see what felt like a business once on the brink, then turned around to become one of First's better performers, appear to be in the process of being kicked back into the gutter again.

Go Ahead bought Dartline in Devon. Their quotes have gone up by roughly 20% since the purchase to recoup some costs

 

[Goldfish62]

Since Alex Carter and Marc moved on, who now manages First South West at director level? Is that job shared with operating companies or are there day to day people making those decisions, rather than enacting them and running the operation?? If the answer is 'no one' then you can see why there's problems with the operation. It needed a unique approach for it to turn around, as did Somerset. Perhaps it always will do?

As with the rest of FirstBus the management structure changed to a regional set-up last year.

FSW is now comes under First Bus South, which consists of:

First South West
First Hampshire & Dorset
First Berkshire (already jointly managed with H&D)

There's a single director team looking after the whole lot. The MD lives in Maidenhead and the CD lives in Reading.

There's no local focus anymore. The set-up is far too large, remote and unwieldy.