Flexible Rail Season Tickets - 2/3 days per week to be introduced by June 2021

[Wolfie]

To be honest this has the feel of "doing something" to prove that "we're listening" at minimum cost in terms of lost income. It has HMT's fingerprints all over it.

 

[Haywain]

At £45 a day, you're not going to get many takers for a Flexi Season. It's hardly much cheaper than a £56 Anytime Day Return (an Anytime Single out and a Network Railcard discounted Off-Peak Single back is cheaper anyway at £49).

To suggest that people aren't going to bother with a saving of £10 a trip is just ludicrous.

 

[Watershed]

To suggest that people aren't going to bother with a saving of £10 a trip is just ludicrous.

It's not really a saving of £10 a trip though. It's £4 a trip if you're even remotely half organised.

There's a far larger saving to be had if you arrive into London just a little later - an Off-Peak Day Return is, quite generously, valid to arrive from 09:45 on that route. That's then just £32.

The other issue is that the savings of a Flexi Season are instantly wiped out if you travel even one day less than you expected. Say if you're a 2 day a week commuter and you happen to be ill on one day - yes, you can get a refund but only back to 7 Anytime Day Returns, less a £10 admin fee.

 

[py_megapixel]

To be honest this has the feel of "doing something" to prove that "we're listening" at minimum cost in terms of lost income. It has HMT's fingerprints all over it.

Yes, that's my feeling too.

 

[Watershed]

How much are Brighton commuters paying for an annual. I can’t see them binning off a job that covered that cost before WFH over a £2k a year difference, when it’s still cheaper than their old annual, and they aren’t going to be driving to London.

An annual rail-only season ticket is £5108. This isn't just about people binning off jobs (although that will be one of many side effects of this ludicrous pricing policy). This is about recognising that people aren't going to be interested in coming into the office if their choice is paying £5108 a year for about 230 days' travel a year (plus weekends), or paying £5100 for 13 Flexi Seasons that give them 104 days' travel over 13 4-week periods.

You would just be subsidising wealthy folk even more.

Yes, the rail network requires subsidy no matter what. But the reason that most people accept its subsidy is that it's a utility that provides something other means of transport cannot.

The subsidy will inevitably flow towards wealthy folk if you continue to price the railway at a premium. By contrast, if you reduced the cost of things like Flexi Seasons, it would be more widely adopted, including by less wealthy folk.

Most crucially of all, income and ridership would rise. And "peak" trains would stop being as empty as they largely now are.

If it really drove off custom then they would run fewer trains, which really does save money.

The industry has operated a vastly reduced timetable over the last 15 months. Yet costs have remained broadly the same, even with pay restraint and many trains being 'shortformed' compared to pre-Covid.

So - precisely how much do you think would be saved by not running the 07:12?

 

[Haywain]

It's not really a saving of £10 a trip though. It's £4 a trip if you're even remotely half organised.

There's a far larger saving to be had if you arrive into London just a little later - an Off-Peak Day Return is, quite generously, valid to arrive from 09:45 on that route. That's then just £32.

The other issue is that the savings of a Flexi Season are instantly wiped out if you travel even one day less than you expected. Say if you're a 2 day a week commuter and you happen to be ill on one day - yes, you can get a refund but only back to 7 Anytime Day Returns, less a £10 admin fee.

It feels like you are just determined to find a reason to criticise the new product, rather than dealing in the reality of people's travel and work arrangements. Even a £4 saving would be enough for most people - it's not like paying more gets any extra flexibility. As for the "happen to be ill" bit, that applies equally to having a normal season ticket or day tickets bought in advance. Yes, if a person can travel off peak the flexi season isn't for them but that won't be everyone by any means.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

I suspect this is going to be open to a lot of short-faring abuse. If you travel from an unstaffed station to a barriered one, and ticket checks on your line are rare, then a Flexi Season between the last two stops will get you through the gateline very easily.

 

[Meerkat]

An annual rail-only season ticket is £5108. This isn't just about people binning off jobs (although that will be one of many side effects of this ludicrous pricing policy).

As long as they aren’t paying more they still earn the same but with more free time - they aren’t going to leave that job

This is about recognising that people aren't going to be interested in coming into the office if their choice is paying £5108 a year for about 230 days' travel a year (plus weekends), or paying £5100 for 13 Flexi Seasons that give them 104 days' travel over 13 4-week periods.

You assume they have a choice about going to work

The subsidy will inevitably flow towards wealthy folk if you continue to price the railway at a premium. By contrast, if you reduced the cost of things like Flexi Seasons, it would be more widely adopted, including by less wealthy folk.

So you want to carry on subsidising wealthy folk (and corrupting the housing market for the locals) AND pay more subsidy out

Most crucially of all, income and ridership would rise. And "peak" trains would stop being as empty as they largely now are.

If they are empty stop running them

The industry has operated a vastly reduced timetable over the last 15 months. Yet costs have remained broadly the same, even with pay restraint and many trains being 'shortformed' compared to pre-Covid.

Because they have to run social distancing space, and haven’t started culling stock leases or staff in a serious way.

I suspect this is going to be open to a lot of short-faring abuse. If you travel from an unstaffed station to a barriered one, and ticket checks on your line are rare, then a Flexi Season between the last two stops will get you through the gateline very easily.

Dangerous game. They catch you once, the flexi passes are all in the system since the start, they know where you live and where you work…..you are getting a career ending conviction.

 

[mmh]

I suspect this is going to be open to a lot of short-faring abuse. If you travel from an unstaffed station to a barriered one, and ticket checks on your line are rare, then a Flexi Season between the last two stops will get you through the gateline very easily.

I don't really see how this is any different from using any other type of ticket to short-fare?

 

[akm]

In case it's helpful to anybody who wants to browse through all the flexi-fares, I've attached a CSV file containing them all (can be loaded into any Spreadsheet software).

Can we safely conclude that they all definitely published now? Flows not included are just not getting Flexi seasons, even if Carnets on them have been withdrawn?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't really see how this is any different from using any other type of ticket to short-fare?

It's not. The more likely fraud using a flexi season is only using the app to enable it when you see an inspector.

The activation app is a right bodge and a half.

 

[Haywain]

Can we safely conclude that they all definitely published now? Flows not included are just not getting Flexi seasons, even if Carnets on them have been withdrawn?

It should be fairly safe to make that assumption.

 

[vinnym70]

Probably just me but if the 28 day validity were to be dropped, I suspect the appeal would be wider. Even if non-expiring flexis aren't an option, upping the validity to 60 days would be beneficial.
I can see a lot of issues in the near future where folks plan to be in the office on a specific day for a meeting, only for it to be rescheduled at short notice - or made virtual because some attendees can't/won't go into the office. I'm not sure how realistic 2 days in the office is going to be for a lot of people in the foreseeable.

I still see gaps in being able to buy and price these tickets right now. Greater Anglia seem to not be selling them (even with travel date set after 28th June). BR fares still seems to be returning a fare of £9998 for my queries. The only full source of pricing right now seems to be the new National Rail season ticket calculator and that seems to have been made deliberately difficult to use as it presents as a scrollable frame in a larger window.

 

[35B]

If you have ever dealt with HMT, and l have for over 30 years, you would know very well that they only care about the cash. Williams is for and by DfT. At best it may provide some evidence to HMT. At worst DfT will be told to fund it from savings from elsewhere in their existing budget

You know that, I know that - but many forget the reality of that.

 

[Haywain]

BR fares still seems to be returning a fare of £9998 for my queries.

As has already been stated on this thread, BRFares will not show the correct prices until Monday 28th, as it only shows fares available for sale and travel. Other systems show fares for a period ahead of that because the travel date can be set in advance.

 

[DB]

Given that the Treasury wishes to cut not increase subsidies the only way that these might be cheaper is if annual STs go up to compensate... Watch the howls if that is attempted...

If the government also wishes to cut car use (which it claims it does) the two aims are in direct opposition to one another.

I note that we still have the biased terminology being used in many places:
Money put into the rail network = subsidy
Money put into the road network = investment

It does rather demonstrate a particular mindset!

 

[Haywain]

Greater Anglia seem to not be selling them (even with travel date set after 28th June).

In my TIS I can see fares for a variety of GA journeys.

 

[alistairlees]

Probably just me but if the 28 day validity were to be dropped, I suspect the appeal would be wider. Even if non-expiring flexis aren't an option, upping the validity to 60 days would be beneficial.
I can see a lot of issues in the near future where folks plan to be in the office on a specific day for a meeting, only for it to be rescheduled at short notice - or made virtual because some attendees can't/won't go into the office. I'm not sure how realistic 2 days in the office is going to be for a lot of people in the foreseeable.

I still see gaps in being able to buy and price these tickets right now. Greater Anglia seem to not be selling them (even with travel date set after 28th June). BR fares still seems to be returning a fare of £9998 for my queries. The only full source of pricing right now seems to be the new National Rail season ticket calculator and that seems to have been made deliberately difficult to use as it presents as a scrollable frame in a larger window.

The source of the data is the RSP fares feed, which is used by all ticket issuing systems (TIS). BRFares is not a TIS.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Probably just me but if the 28 day validity were to be dropped, I suspect the appeal would be wider. Even if non-expiring flexis aren't an option, upping the validity to 60 days would be beneficial.
I can see a lot of issues in the near future where folks plan to be in the office on a specific day for a meeting, only for it to be rescheduled at short notice - or made virtual because some attendees can't/won't go into the office. I'm not sure how realistic 2 days in the office is going to be for a lot of people in the foreseeable.

Once our office reopens doubling the validity to 2 months would probably work for me. But it still doesn't save money when compared to an Anytime Day Single out and an Off Peak Day Single with NSE back. Or even without the NSE, as I don't go in often I'll often have a "cheeky Nando's" and take a train that would be off-peak home (as it's quieter too) as it's only one day a week, so Anytime Day Single out and Super Off Peak Day Single with NSE back really does save a packet.

This comes back to that for this to really work the cost per day needs to be somewhere around the cost per day of a 7 day season (assuming it is used for 5 return journeys as most such tickets are, the weekend validity is a bonus that is mostly not used).

But overall I think they just need to reduce the price of the regulated Anytime Day Singles and Returns by about 20-25%* and not bother with any of this complexity. The days of creaming it in off people on expenses are long gone - companies are now in my experience more "penny pinching" about fares than most individuals - my employer for example requires the use of Advances if available for the required journey, whereas I won't even consider an Advance for a short journey if paying myself.

* The unregulated InterCity ones are even more outrageous, but those aren't really so relevant to commuting except "edge cases" like Wellingborough.

 

[Meerkat]

But overall I think they just need to reduce the price of the regulated Anytime Day Singles and Returns by about 20-25%* and not bother with any of this complexity. The days of creaming it in off people on expenses are long gone - companies are now in my experience more "penny pinching" about fares than most individuals - my employer for example requires the use of Advances if available for the required journey, whereas I won't even consider an Advance for a short journey if paying myself.

To what end? Surely creaming it off people on expenses is replaced by needing to get the money off the 1 or 2 day a week commuters to pay for the system now the season tickets are gone?
But I think that probably is wandering off into the “what are we/should we be subsidising” debate which is a whole thread in itself (especially as it is a bit north v south!).

 

[Wolfie]

If the government also wishes to cut car use (which it claims it does) the two aims are in direct opposition to one another.

I note that we still have the biased terminology being used in many places:
Money put into the rail network = subsidy
Money put into the road network = investment

It does rather demonstrate a particular mindset!

Money put into developing the rail network infrastructure = investment

Money put into covering the costs of trains with precious few passengers = subsidy

Guess which, after short-term measures, is the more vulnerable to cuts....

 

[Haywain]

Money put into developing the rail network infrastructure = investment

Money put into covering the costs of trains with precious few passengers = subsidy

Guess which, after short-term measures, is the more vulnerable to cuts....

Based on what's happened in the past, it's definitely the investment bit.

 

[Wolfie]

Based on what's happened in the past, it's definitely the investment bit.

In the short to medium term that attracts less criticism regardless of the longer term consequences...

 

[benk1342]

Probably just me but if the 28 day validity were to be dropped, I suspect the appeal would be wider. Even if non-expiring flexis aren't an option, upping the validity to 60 days would be beneficial.

I'd be curious to know what the rationale was for dropping the validity to 28 days from the traditional Carnet three months.

@Haywain any insight you can offer?

 

[Bletchleyite]

In the short to medium term that attracts less criticism regardless of the longer term consequences...

Well, quite. The irony is that investment can remove subsidy. For example, it seems well established that converting a Manchester suburban rail line to Metrolink costs a lot of infrastructure investment but removes the need for ongoing subsidy while providing a superior service.

 

[Jurg]

Just looking at some of the Flexi Season fares, Hatton to Bermuda Park £85.10, compared to an anytime return of £11.20, a discount of around 5%. In comparison the figures for Hatton to Bedworth are £72.80 and £10.40, a discount of 12.5%. There seems to be little consistency, and it would be interesting to know how they are calculated by the TOCs.

 

[Haywain]

I'd be curious to know what the rationale was for dropping the validity to 28 days from the traditional Carnet three months.

@Haywain any insight you can offer?

None at all. These were decided at DfT or RDG level, I believe.

However, at a stretch I might be inclined to suggest the dead hand of the Treasury getting involved, with anything less than 2 journeys a week being seen as undercutting fares for occasional travel (SDR) against part time commuting. I may well be wrong. But it does look a bit like the proverbial camel.

 

[DB]

Money put into developing the rail network infrastructure = investment

Money put into covering the costs of trains with precious few passengers = subsidy

Guess which, after short-term measures, is the more vulnerable to cuts....

Not really - the railways isn't like the roads and the government is responsible for both the infrastructure and the timetabled passenger trains which run on it. - you can take your own car on the roads, but can't just decide you want to operate your own train (well, not unless you are as wealthy as Jeremy Hosking!)

 

[infobleep]

Be very careful with this ,the advice is to only buy a second after you've all of the existing day passes.


Not always, both barcode and Smartcard had to be enabled for 90% of the flows

Why couldn't they do the remaining 10%?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Why couldn't they do the remaining 10%?

Because the whole scheme has been thrown together in a hurry?

If we accept that something did have to be launched now (and I appreciate that we may not all accept that) then the amazing thing may not be that it doesn't work smoothly, but that it works at all.

Less poetically, the speed of implementation also explains the lack of first class and child tickets and so on - I suspect that the priority was to get the main system up and running but leave the 'nice to have' options to one side.