-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Football Hooligans - AGAIN
- Thread starter First class
- Start date
- Status
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
But then Blackburn Rovers fans would have to stop chanting 'stand up if you're from the north' at Old Trafford, which would be a great shame....
Anyway - anyone that condemns English football hooligans as the worst in the world clearly has never been anywhere near Glasgow when there's an old firm game on. Just saying
Their chant went 'Gary Neville is a red, is a red, is a red. Gary Neville is a red, We hate Scousers' which was shouted multiple times. I didn't find it particularly pleasant. (It may not be against a particular race but it is against a group of people from a particular place)
Also, one of their fans tried to stand up to the rest saying that others may find what they are staying offensive, but there was almost a fight, so I don't think it would have been wise for me to tackle them.
Finally, two different conductors (before and after Birmingham) walked through the carriage and most probably heard their chanting (although I can't guarantee this) yet tried to be friendly with them as they didn't want to cause trouble.
And WelshBluebird, maybe the football fans were having a 'good time' in their eyes rather than meaning any harm, but it was downright selfish and inconsiderate and people having a 'good time' should ideally not impinge greatly on others having a 'good time'.
CC 72100
Established Member
- Joined
- 23 Jan 2012
- Messages
- 3,818
Being a big football fan myself I have watched this thread develop over the past week with great interest, and have refrained from posting until now. I feel that
1) It is only the minority that behave badly
2) It is not just football that has this 'problem' - it is just that it recieves the most publicity as it is the most attended sport in the UK
3) A lot of this 'bad behaviour' that football fans demonstrate can be found across other groups in society, like other posters have said, Stag and Hen parties who may also behave in this way on public transport. Do other groups not behave like this when they have been drinking?
I've attended quite a few games in the past 6/7 years, and although I haven't used public transport, I have only ever seen the slightest hint of trouble once, two England fans having a bit of a scuffle outside Old Trafford at the end of England V Denmark friendly in around 2003/2004.
As for racist chanting, it does happen [Also Wolfie below has shown how that particular chant goes, and that one I can assure you is not a racist one] , but not to the massive extents that I does in Central and Eastern Europe, which was one of the primary reasons I was so annoyed with Russia having been awarded the world cup, given the history but also current racism problems.
1) It is only the minority that behave badly
2) It is not just football that has this 'problem' - it is just that it recieves the most publicity as it is the most attended sport in the UK
3) A lot of this 'bad behaviour' that football fans demonstrate can be found across other groups in society, like other posters have said, Stag and Hen parties who may also behave in this way on public transport. Do other groups not behave like this when they have been drinking?
I've attended quite a few games in the past 6/7 years, and although I haven't used public transport, I have only ever seen the slightest hint of trouble once, two England fans having a bit of a scuffle outside Old Trafford at the end of England V Denmark friendly in around 2003/2004.
As for racist chanting, it does happen [Also Wolfie below has shown how that particular chant goes, and that one I can assure you is not a racist one] , but not to the massive extents that I does in Central and Eastern Europe, which was one of the primary reasons I was so annoyed with Russia having been awarded the world cup, given the history but also current racism problems.
Last edited:
I think you will find, for accuracy that the chant actually went 'Gary Neville is a red, is a red, is a red. Gary Neville is a red, He hates Scousers' (and no, I am no Man U fan which that lot were!).
"And WelshBluebird, maybe the football fans were having a 'good time' in their eyes rather than meaning any harm, but it was downright selfish and inconsiderate and people having a 'good time' should ideally not impinge greatly on others having a 'good time'." Agreed, but hardly unique to football fans is it. Try rugby fans singing "Sweet Chariot", hen and stag parties, race-goers, train spotters and lots of others already mentioned....
OK. I heard what I thought I heard, maybe I was wrong, but I still didn't enjoy hearing that chant over and over again for a long time.
Maybe the problem isn't unique to football fans, but I don't think that is a good enough excuse for it taking place 'Just because others do it, that makes it alright for me to do it'.
WelshBluebird
Established Member
- Joined
- 14 Jan 2010
- Messages
- 5,222
So yes, I was right. It was not at all racist.
As I said, somehow I doubt you would feel the same if they had been oh so innocent Rugby fans, or a stag / hen party, or people who had been to a concert and were singing songs loudly, or just drunk people in general.
If I ever have the pleasure of a 3 hour journey with a carriage full of one of the groups of people you have named, I will be sure to tell you how my journey was. I had an unpleasant journey because of football fans. They may be no worse than other groups but that doesn't excuse them.
Royston Vasey
Established Member
I cannot believe you played the race card over "We hate Scousers"... Ridiculous. That is a very grave accusation to make so casually.
But you obviously feel making an unspecified accusation of racism somehow validates your intolerance of those fans. Well, it doesn't. Whatever issues you had with them and their behaviour, you have totally undermined your own point.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
Again, and I am sorry to labour a point, why didnt you express your unhappiness to them, the guard and the police?
Of course bad behaviour is unacceptbale in what ever form ( i dont really think that was bad behaviour mind)
It sounds like nothing to me. Try the last train out of newcastle on an evening!
That'll be me then, thanks. :-x
Anon Mouse
Established Member
- Joined
- 20 Mar 2011
- Messages
- 1,274
I worked a train full of Newcastle fans, and one Guy got arrested for causing bother and he was with a young Kid. I must say I was very impressed with his parenting skills....
Flamingo
Established Member
- Joined
- 26 Apr 2010
- Messages
- 6,806
If the cap fits...
Seriously, not all fans are trouble, but the ones that ARE trouble in my experience are usually aged 40-60.
Anon Mouse
Established Member
- Joined
- 20 Mar 2011
- Messages
- 1,274
If the cap fits...
Seriously, not all fans are trouble, but the ones that ARE trouble in my experience are usually aged 40-60.
depends, most of the "top lads" are in that age range, but the apprentice casuals in their late teens clad in burberry, stone island and aquascutum are just as bad. To be honest I think it depends on the team and the amount of fans who are travelling. BUT to be fair I would rather have a train full of Football fans, even if they do contain a hooligan element than Racegoers and Hen Parties. At least you can usually predict Footie fans and that BTP are normally not too far away!
BestWestern
Established Member
- Joined
- 6 Feb 2011
- Messages
- 6,736
Oh for heaven's sake!! Football fans are now to be placed in the same league of national significance as Muslim terrorists and, according to another poster, murderers, are they?! Jesus :roll::roll:
A hen or stag party - or, as some have laughably suggested, a group of marauding trainspotters (!) - are nowhere near a football crowd in terms of number, and can generally be dealt with by one person, if handled properly, and by the police failing that. Half a trainload of football fans cannot. Even the police will struggle, as effectively they are out of control. In no situation would anybody want a load of shouting, beer swilling blokes taking over a train and showing absolutely no consideration whatsoever for other passengers. But because of the numbers and the expected difficulties in dealing with them, even the authorities just let it carry on, unable or at least deeply reluctant to do anything about it. Those who feel that it is perfectly acceptable and everybody else should just tolerate it only serve to further the argument that such people shouldn't be on trains.
The idea that we should target only those who cause trouble falls down at the realisation that there aren't the resources, or the will, or in many cases any practical means, to do so. The time, the number of people needed, and the logistical challenges mean that it just can't happen. Yes, it would be great to have enough police about to storm on board and eject all those who can't sit down and keep themselves to themselves, and moreso those guilty of more serious antisocial conduct, but we all know that there aren't. We all know that on a busy train conveying large numbers of football supporters, it is difficult to even move through the train, let alone identify who is doing what or get in there and grab them.
I'm sorry, but the onus really is with football fans in general to change their ways. When it stops being such a troubling issue, then perhaps attitudes towards them will change accordingly. Over to you... :roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Or indeed that because most months there will be a SPAD somewhere all Drivers are incompetent and we should go ATO as a matter of priority?? Careful... :roll:
Selling somebody the wrong ticket is hardly causing widespread grief to large numbers of other people now, is it?! Not quite the same.
Last edited:
Minilad
Established Member
It wasn't intended to be "the same" it was intended to point out how stupid you are in tarring all football fans with the same brush and recommending such useless and draconian methods to stop the occasional problem
DarloRich
Veteran Member
@BestWestern - you should have a word with your employers if you feel you are being put in a dangerous position. Perhaps there is best practice that could be taken from other areas to offer you more comfort.
I can only speak from experience (of which i have a great deal!) of travelling form the North East all of the country by train to watch the match. The BTP, and perhaps it is only the north eastern division that does this, regularly patrol trains that they know will have a lot fans on board and there is rarely any bother. Surely it is easy it identify such services using TOC analytics of sales/loadings. I assumed this kind of patrolling would occur all over the country, but perhaps not, and your experiences suggests not!
For instance, I travelled last year from the North East to London to watch a match. Somehow Newcastle, Boro, Darlo & Pools were playing in or around the capital that day. Clearly there was any number of potential flashpoints but the BTP policed almost every train and managed things, along with the TOC staff, superbly.
All the trains were made alcohol free, both to and from London, and you were not allowed on board at Kings Cross if you had drink on you, smelt of drink or looked drunk.
BTP and ECML TOC's regularly seem to make trains to and from London/York alcohol free for all kinds of reasons.
As for yesterday I managed to travel on 6 trains, had a few cans/pints, suffered a 3-1 defeat to a poor side, had a wander around a town centre without destroying it and still managed not to smash the train up, assault any staff member, abuse anyone or behave in an anti social manner.
I agree that there has to be an element of self control and self policing. It is up to us to try and control the more “extreme” elements. Many people misunderstand boisterousness for aggression. Perhaps 30 years of football attunes you to the nuances and gives you an understanding of when things are fine and when they will get out of control. We should remember that many people are unable or unwilling to recognise the differences. I still maintain that anti social behaviour of whatever type needs to be challenged and dealt with.
However, I would point out that most “trouble” will not occur where there are people or CCT or the chance that the police will turn up any time soon. Most people intent on causing trouble will not go by train. It is to easy for you to be identified, traced, prosecuted, convicted, banned and controlled. But what do I know.........
I can only speak from experience (of which i have a great deal!) of travelling form the North East all of the country by train to watch the match. The BTP, and perhaps it is only the north eastern division that does this, regularly patrol trains that they know will have a lot fans on board and there is rarely any bother. Surely it is easy it identify such services using TOC analytics of sales/loadings. I assumed this kind of patrolling would occur all over the country, but perhaps not, and your experiences suggests not!
For instance, I travelled last year from the North East to London to watch a match. Somehow Newcastle, Boro, Darlo & Pools were playing in or around the capital that day. Clearly there was any number of potential flashpoints but the BTP policed almost every train and managed things, along with the TOC staff, superbly.
All the trains were made alcohol free, both to and from London, and you were not allowed on board at Kings Cross if you had drink on you, smelt of drink or looked drunk.
BTP and ECML TOC's regularly seem to make trains to and from London/York alcohol free for all kinds of reasons.
As for yesterday I managed to travel on 6 trains, had a few cans/pints, suffered a 3-1 defeat to a poor side, had a wander around a town centre without destroying it and still managed not to smash the train up, assault any staff member, abuse anyone or behave in an anti social manner.
I agree that there has to be an element of self control and self policing. It is up to us to try and control the more “extreme” elements. Many people misunderstand boisterousness for aggression. Perhaps 30 years of football attunes you to the nuances and gives you an understanding of when things are fine and when they will get out of control. We should remember that many people are unable or unwilling to recognise the differences. I still maintain that anti social behaviour of whatever type needs to be challenged and dealt with.
However, I would point out that most “trouble” will not occur where there are people or CCT or the chance that the police will turn up any time soon. Most people intent on causing trouble will not go by train. It is to easy for you to be identified, traced, prosecuted, convicted, banned and controlled. But what do I know.........
As I wrote in a post several pages back, this is particularly the case when a crowd is involved> Even a crowd of happy people can be very intimidating.
Flamingo
Established Member
- Joined
- 26 Apr 2010
- Messages
- 6,806
Well Wales are playing in Twickenham next Saturday, and Cardiff are playing in London next Sunday. Come Monday (if I survive) I'll post a comparison!
What an excellent idea. Would end train overcrowding at a stroke .....
I think you have hit the nail on the head. And I speak as someone who has attended matches consistently for the last 40+ years, nearly always travelling by train.
Last edited:
Madge Wildfire
Member
The irresponsible media dont help the football supporters cause, with their banner headlines based on scanty evidence sometimes.
Many years ago, I went to an away match by train. We lost, and were kept in the ground until the home fans had dispersed. We were then escorted back to the station by a few police, but after the result no one in the large-ish crowd of a few hundred was in the mood to do anything other than moan about the players' lack of ambition.
At the station, the genius of a ticket collector decided to prevent anyone going through the barriers and onto the platforms until the dedicated train had arrived. This meant that while everyone at the front was by the ticket collector, all the people at the back were just piling into the station foyer unaware that there was nowhere to go inside.
Suddenly there was a sound of smashing glass and I thought "oh no, here we go - trouble", but looked up to find that under the pressure from the people pressed against it, the timber framed glass box that the ticket collector stood in had collapsed onto the floor. Finally, the authorities realised that spreading the fans out along the platform was a much safer alternative, and the little old ladies waiting for the scheduled service would have to put up with a hoard of miserable and depressed fans for ten minutes.
The next morning in the regional versions of the Sunday papers, were big headlines of "Football louts trash railway station" and gory details of how station staff were hospitalised due to wounds from flying glass.
Anyone reading that article would have been left in no doubt that a severe bottle fight had taken place, and poor but plucky railway staff who were only trying to keep order had received all manner of injuries.
Nothing could have been further from the truth.
Many years ago, I went to an away match by train. We lost, and were kept in the ground until the home fans had dispersed. We were then escorted back to the station by a few police, but after the result no one in the large-ish crowd of a few hundred was in the mood to do anything other than moan about the players' lack of ambition.
At the station, the genius of a ticket collector decided to prevent anyone going through the barriers and onto the platforms until the dedicated train had arrived. This meant that while everyone at the front was by the ticket collector, all the people at the back were just piling into the station foyer unaware that there was nowhere to go inside.
Suddenly there was a sound of smashing glass and I thought "oh no, here we go - trouble", but looked up to find that under the pressure from the people pressed against it, the timber framed glass box that the ticket collector stood in had collapsed onto the floor. Finally, the authorities realised that spreading the fans out along the platform was a much safer alternative, and the little old ladies waiting for the scheduled service would have to put up with a hoard of miserable and depressed fans for ten minutes.
The next morning in the regional versions of the Sunday papers, were big headlines of "Football louts trash railway station" and gory details of how station staff were hospitalised due to wounds from flying glass.
Anyone reading that article would have been left in no doubt that a severe bottle fight had taken place, and poor but plucky railway staff who were only trying to keep order had received all manner of injuries.
Nothing could have been further from the truth.
graham43404
Member
Usual UK reporting it seems, why let the truth get in the way of a good story.
Christof Royal
Member
- Joined
- 8 Jan 2010
- Messages
- 29
FAO 34D and BestWestern et al
Great fishing, well done, hooked a good few people in here, you'll need a huge brush to tar us all with
Alternatively, on the off-chance that you actually do believe that there is a significant minority of football-related troublemakers, here are some Home Office figures on attendances vs arrests in or around football grounds...
STATISTICS ON FOOTBALL-RELATED ARRESTS & BANNING ORDERS SEASON 2009-10
Total attendance at regulated football matches in England and Wales = in excess of 39,000,000
Total number of people arrested in connection with all international and domestic football matches involving teams from England and Wales = 3,391
Total number of arrests = less than 0.01% of all spectators.
No football-related arrests of England or Wales supporters at overseas matches, including the 2010 World Cup in South Africa
When it starts being such a troubling issue, let me know and we'll talk again. Back to you...
Great fishing, well done, hooked a good few people in here, you'll need a huge brush to tar us all with
Alternatively, on the off-chance that you actually do believe that there is a significant minority of football-related troublemakers, here are some Home Office figures on attendances vs arrests in or around football grounds...
STATISTICS ON FOOTBALL-RELATED ARRESTS & BANNING ORDERS SEASON 2009-10
Total attendance at regulated football matches in England and Wales = in excess of 39,000,000
Total number of people arrested in connection with all international and domestic football matches involving teams from England and Wales = 3,391
Total number of arrests = less than 0.01% of all spectators.
No football-related arrests of England or Wales supporters at overseas matches, including the 2010 World Cup in South Africa
When it starts being such a troubling issue, let me know and we'll talk again. Back to you...
What you have shown is that only a very small number of "fans" do anything that warrants a banning order (or are caught). However, to a non-fan, the general behaviour of the overall crowd can be intimidating; Leeds station after a match is full of noisy, aggressive "majority" fans, and the atmosphere is unnerving whether their team has won or lost. And yes, they ARE aggressive, because that is the nature of a huge crowd acting in unison - even a crowd of knitting vicars would be intimidating in those numbers. The same is true at Manchester Piccadilly, New Street, Oxford, Luton, Newcastle - everywhere I have happened to coincide with football crowds they have been intimidating. And this appears to be something that those who take part - normal fans - do not seem to realise.
Christof Royal
Member
- Joined
- 8 Jan 2010
- Messages
- 29
Thanks for the response, genuinely interested in this as I am a bit cheesed off with the sweeping generalisations of many (not you) about 'us' in the media. Couple of points...
Like I said, not having a pop, interested in considered responses rather than Daily Mail diatribes and sweeping generalisations...
Indeed, and not all of those arrested (who will normally get a FBO as a matter of course) will be charged, and not all of those charged will be found guilty. Even those not found guilty will often not have the FBO rescinded, which to me seems unfair.
Are they really all aggressive? I've been to Elland Road a few times, and although they can be surly, I've barely seen any aggression at all.
Disagree - the nature of a crowd provides safety in numbers and solidarity, and sometimes a herd mentality which may, but not always, be perceived as aggressive. Very occasionally this will escalate, but as the figures show this is extremely rare. I could go on about the way that football supporters are policed, and the way that the media hype things up, but that's another story.
So therefore it's not football, but crowds in general? Mind you, those knitting vicars...
Like I said, not having a pop, interested in considered responses rather than Daily Mail diatribes and sweeping generalisations...
Yes, I do believe it is a crowd rather than a football thing. However, football crowds are (I would guess) the most frequent, and probably the largest (political demonstrations apart!). I suspect if those knitting vicars got together more often, people would be leery about them more.
The problem with a crowd, as I see it, is that it has an identity, almost a purpose, of its own. If you are outside it, it is, by definition, much bigger than you, and thus intimidating. When that is exaggerated by chanting, or clapping in unison it can be utterly horrible. Surprisingly, I find this is even true of dissipated crowds - small knots of people all going from "the ground" to the station seem to take on the characteristics of a crowd. My main point being that, to the majority of those within the crowd, they are simply walking back, and they do not perceive how the overall crowd is seen.
Perhaps there is a good psychological thesis to be written!
BestWestern
Established Member
- Joined
- 6 Feb 2011
- Messages
- 6,736
Some very good points. It is apparent that those who are football fans and regularly attend matches appear largely blind to the way in which large groups of supporters are perceived by other members of the public, and seem unable to appreciate that a sizable crowd of shouting, boisterous and generally alcohol-fueled people is intimidating and unpleasant. Travellers who have boarded a train with the expectation of a normal civilised journey do not want to be in that environment, and understandably so. Those of us who work such trains can confirm that excessive shouting, usually involving generous use of foul language, and messy consumption of large quantities of booze are regular aspects of match day journeys, and can vouch for how it unsettles and irritates everybody else. And that is on a 'good' journey where nothing major kicks off. It isn't acceptable and people have a right not to have put up with it, end of.
As for those arrest figures, they are meaningless. As has already been explored, many/most who partake of antisocial behavior during their journeys aren't picked up by the police. Only a few who are guilty of the worst football related offending will ever be nicked, mostly well away from any trains which may have got them there. Once they are on board it is incredibly difficult to even identify who is doing what, let alone get in there and drag them off, and the police for the most part have little inclination to do so anyway. Hence, much of the railway-related offending goes unpunished.
Last edited:
Flamingo
Established Member
- Joined
- 26 Apr 2010
- Messages
- 6,806
Certain teams are more difficult than others - I lived for three years beside a football ground in West London (Brentford) and never felt any concern with the crowds streaming past my front door too and from games, but there are teams and I HATE to see their fans on the train, as they are invariably full of attitude.
There are fans who take pleasure in the reputation they have, and try to use it to intimidate. I remember once selling a car, and after a rejecting a (stupid) offer from one guy, got told by him in an e-mail I'd better accept the offer, he was part of the Swansea City Posse, and he would have them come around and smash the car up. Also, just look at the numerous books out there about football hooligans:
http://www.hooliganbooks.cjb.net/
Trying to deny they are there is being as unrealistic as trying to claim that every fan is a hooligan.
There are fans who take pleasure in the reputation they have, and try to use it to intimidate. I remember once selling a car, and after a rejecting a (stupid) offer from one guy, got told by him in an e-mail I'd better accept the offer, he was part of the Swansea City Posse, and he would have them come around and smash the car up. Also, just look at the numerous books out there about football hooligans:
http://www.hooliganbooks.cjb.net/
Trying to deny they are there is being as unrealistic as trying to claim that every fan is a hooligan.
- Status