Football

[Runningaround]

Manchester 2008 was not helped by poor, provocative policing and a lot of Chelsea ultras went up to cause trouble too.

Oddly the Spanish police are not known for their leniency with British football fans, but seemed to get it completely right last week.

Spanish police still operate in the old school way. Boot up the arse, and they make you clean and tidy any mess you've caused rather than faffing around with writing out tickets and carting them off to sit in a cell all night which takes officers off the street and uses time with paper work.

Sunderland deservedly beat Wycombe at Wembley to book their place in the Championship. Wycombe are a glorified pub side so that's a good result. Sunderland play decent football and have incredible support.

Yeah lets allocate league places on supporter base and close off the top leagues to the elite, better still why not get the top twenty European Clubs together to form a closed league and call it ''The European Super League''.
While we're at it we should vilify small well run clubs for having the temerity to even think they should be playing at the same level as a badly run mega club.
I guess you think ''massive'' Sheffield Wednesday should be given automatic promotion to the Premier League, Leeds be excluded from the relegation battle as they are more massive than Burnley and Forest shouldn't bother with the Play-off final as they are bigger than Huddersfield and should have had automatic promotion twenty years ago rather than be relegated to league one.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

^^^^^
This forum needs a "like" button!

 

[AlterEgo]

Yeah lets allocate league places on supporter base and close off the top leagues to the elite, better still why not get the top twenty European Clubs together to form a closed league and call it ''The European Super League''.
While we're at it we should vilify small well run clubs for having the temerity to even think they should be playing at the same level as a badly run mega club.
I guess you think ''massive'' Sheffield Wednesday should be given automatic promotion to the Premier League, Leeds be excluded from the relegation battle as they are more massive than Burnley and Forest shouldn't bother with the Play-off final as they are bigger than Huddersfield and should have had automatic promotion twenty years ago rather than be relegated to league one.

Yes you've talked past what I was saying. As I said earlier:

Have you seen Wycombe play this season? Horrid to watch. If they’d been in the Championship this season they’d still be in League One next season.

Ghastly football.

 

[Runningaround]

As I said earlier:

Ghastly football.

So what are you saying clubs need to show artistic merit to gain promotion? Perhaps you should consider going to Rhythmic gymnastics or Synchronised Swimming instead of nasty football.

 

[AlterEgo]

So what are you saying clubs need to show artistic merit to gain promotion? Perhaps you should consider going to Rhythmic gymnastics or Synchronised Swimming instead of nasty football.

No, I'm saying that I'm happy Wycombe lost because they're awful to watch. Time wasting, anti-football, and relentless gamesmanship which erodes the spirit of the game. People pay to go and watch it.

Some people enjoy football as a spectacle. Others would be happy to watch a game where each goal has a brick wall in front of it as long as that was strictly within the rules.

Sunderland are a far better side with better players and much more edifying to watch. I'm pleased they got promoted on that basis alone.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Yes you've talked past what I was saying. As I said earlier:

Ghastly football.

Could you point me to the section of the rulebook that forbids a more er... "industrial" playing style?

Sure, we may all want our teams to play like the 1970s Netherlands or 1958 Brazil, but that's a bit unrealistic. Teams are entitled to play in a way that maximises their chance of getting a result. If that means having to go more direct against a more technically gifted opposition, so be it.
Folk used to grumble about Neil Warnock's playing style back in the 1990s, but it got results. There was also plenty of goalmouth action to compensate for players like Darren Bullock not being able to do a Cruyff turn.

 

[AlterEgo]

Could you point me to the section of the rulebook that forbids a more er... "industrial" playing style?

Sure, we may all want our teams to play like the 1970s Netherlands or 1958 Brazil, but that's a bit unrealistic. Teams are entitled to play in a way that maximises their chance of getting a result. If that means having to go more direct against a more technically gifted opposition, so be it.

More gifted opposition. Indeed, you said it. Better team won, not only on the day, but actually overall, too. There can be no complaints.

 

[Runningaround]

Could you point me to the section of the rulebook that forbids a more er... "industrial" playing style?

Sure, we may all want our teams to play like the 1970s Netherlands or 1958 Brazil, but that's a bit unrealistic. Teams are entitled to play in a way that maximises their chance of getting a result. If that means having to go more direct against a more technically gifted opposition, so be it.
Folk used to grumble about Neil Warnock's playing style back in the 1990s, but it got results. There was also plenty of goalmouth action to compensate for players like Darren Bullock not being able to do a Cruyff turn.

Unless they want a closed shop Super League where you have not just scoring more goals than your opponent aim but get bonus points for playing pretty football. I'm sure the Americans tried or seriously considered extra point goals from outside the area.

That's the thing if everyone played exactly the same way, ran their club exactly the same and paid exactly the same wages someone will still get relegated so clever managers and clubs who cannot pay the wages wanted by fancy players need to play differently.
A good manager isn't just one who wins trophies after spending £ 1 billion, but gets the best results out of what he's got.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

More gifted opposition. Indeed, you said it. Better team won, not only on the day, but actually overall, too. There can be no complaints.

The only statistic that matters is goals for and against. As you say, on this occasion the more technically gifted side won... but had Sunderland failed to win the game (all other factors being equal) they would have no valid complaints. Wycombe had qualified for the final on merit, and were just as worthy of their place in the final as Sunderland were.

A lot of the time, terms like "cloggers" are used euphemistically to disparage teams from the less glamorous parts of the country. My own team have had this from so-called experts and opposition fans all season despite being one of the cleanest teams in the division in terms of cards.

 

[AlterEgo]

The only statistic that matters is goals for and against. As you say, on this occasion the more technically gifted side won... but had Sunderland failed to win the game (all other factors being equal) they would have no valid complaints. Wycombe had qualified for the final on merit, and were just as worthy of their place in the final as Sunderland were.

A lot of the time, terms like "cloggers" are used euphemistically to disparage teams from the less glamorous parts of the country. My own team have had this from so-called experts and opposition fans all season despite being one of the cleanest teams in the division in terms of cards.

I can’t believe that I can post something as relatively mainstream and uncontroversial as my opinion that “I prefer teams who try to play nice attractive football with skilled players and it was nice to see the better team win” and it attract such a basic response as “did you know if you score more goals you win”.

Do you think I don’t know that?

Teams who play good football do it through philosophical choice. You don’t need masses of resources, as a glance at League 1 would tell you. There’s a good third of the sides there playing good football which is attractive to watch.

Playing good, modern football in keeping with the philosophies set in the top leagues is a wise decision. For a start, big clubs will be more likely to loan you their young players, which makes a lot of difference in the lower leagues. Secondly, attendances can be affected by the character of the team. People are more willing to watch and pay for a higher standard of football, as any glance at attendance records for yo-yo teams will tell you.

 

[Loppylugs]

You play to your players strengths. I watched the Wimbledon Crazy Gang and the following years. Play it the Wimbledon way, keeper to front line, no need for a midfield. Beasant to Fash the bash, not pretty but effective and no piddling around at the back

Just watched the Vase Final in which Newport Pagnell beat Littlehampton 3 - 0. What a goddam awful place Wembley is when the sun is out. Half of it in shadow and a job for the cameras to adjust to the lighting conditions.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I can’t believe that I can post something as relatively mainstream and uncontroversial as my opinion that “I prefer teams who try to play nice attractive football with skilled players and it was nice to see the better team win” and it attract such a basic response as “did you know if you score more goals you win”.

Do you think I don’t know that?

Teams who play good football do it through philosophical choice. You don’t need masses of resources, as a glance at League 1 would tell you. There’s a good third of the sides there playing good football which is attractive to watch.

Playing good, modern football in keeping with the philosophies set in the top leagues is a wise decision. For a start, big clubs will be more likely to loan you their young players, which makes a lot of difference in the lower leagues. Secondly, attendances can be affected by the character of the team. People are more willing to watch and pay for a higher standard of football, as any glance at attendance records for yo-yo teams will tell you.

I agree that free-flowing football is more entertaining than some of the more "direct" styles... though going direct can lead to more goalmouth action which does in some ways compensate for the lack of action in the middle third.

My issue is that, as I said, such criticisms are often used as a stick to beat the less financially gifted clubs. In a week's time, Huddersfield Town will play Nottingham Forest for a place in the Premier League. Forest seem to be favourites to win, and I'd probably go along with that... but according to the MSM and particularly Sky, the final is just a formality and Huddersfield are an afterthought.
It's obvious that Sky would rather Forest get promoted than Huddersfield, and they do very little to hide it. But I've heard some very lazy punditry from the likes of Sky suggesting that we've ridden our luck to finish 3rd.

I haven't seen Wycombe play this season, so they may well be a more direct side... they may also lean on the "dark arts" of gamesmanship a little, but such things are within the rules if the officials permit it. More often than not, the accusations of being a "long ball" side are simply euphemisms for "unglamorous, traditionally lower-league" clubs.

Luton Town suffered this more than us, they were quite direct but not "long-ball", and gave us a good game in all four encounters this season, but they were viewed as "cloggers" by many. On the other hand, Manchester United under Mourinho were quite direct but I never heard any pundits disparage them for it in the way that they did Burnley, Stoke or Hull.

 

[Runningaround]

The commentators and forum posters use derogatory terms and write about ''playing the right way'' to make others believe they know about football. Before the internet Football was Football and to me it always will be. I'll leave the talk about styles football to the guy in his Man City playing on the Fruit Machine while the rest of us watch his team on the telly and tell him the score.

I can’t believe that I can post something as relatively mainstream and uncontroversial as my opinion that “I prefer teams who try to play nice attractive football with skilled players and it was nice to see the better team win” and it attract such a basic response as “did you know if you score more goals you win”.

Do you think I don’t know that?

Teams who play good football do it through philosophical choice. You don’t need masses of resources, as a glance at League 1 would tell you. There’s a good third of the sides there playing good football which is attractive to watch.

Playing good, modern football in keeping with the philosophies set in the top leagues is a wise decision. For a start, big clubs will be more likely to loan you their young players, which makes a lot of difference in the lower leagues. Secondly, attendances can be affected by the character of the team. People are more willing to watch and pay for a higher standard of football, as any glance at attendance records for yo-yo teams will tell you.

Are you a fan who only goes to support a team that is playing the ''right way'', do you switch support if they stop?

 

[Iskra]

Well, Leeds did it, the Leeds way.

Hopefully our manager will decide it is mission accomplished and walk away now, then we can get someone decent in that plays recognisable football.

Commiserations to Burnley, my dad supports them so have a mild soft spot for them, but I think they will back fairly soon and hopefully they can use the time to reinvent their footballing style.

I'll be interested to see the result of the Championship play off final, both clubs fairly close to Sheffield and Forest being a historic club, Huddersfield of course being a very historic club

 

[AlterEgo]

Are you a fan who only goes to support a team that is playing the ''right way'', do you switch support if they stop?

I am not one of those fans no, but those sorts of fans exist. There are plenty of fair weather fans out there. You only have to look at relegated teams’ attendances to see that declining quality football leads to lower interest.

 

[Kite159]

Well, Leeds did it, the Leeds way.

Hopefully our manager will decide it is mission accomplished and walk away now, then we can get someone decent in that plays recognisable football.

Commiserations to Burnley, my dad supports them so have a mild soft spot for them, but I think they will back fairly soon and hopefully they can use the time to reinvent their footballing style.

I'll be interested to see the result of the Championship play off final, both clubs fairly close to Sheffield and Forest being a historic club, Huddersfield of course being a very historic club

I dare say West Yorkshire Police would probably prefer Nottingham Forest, to avoid having a Leeds vs Huddersfield derby.

At least the last day of the Premiership this year had a few bits of unfinished business (1v2, 4v5, 6v7 & 17v18), better than a few years ago when pretty much everything was decided before round 38 meaning the last day was lacking in suspend.

Hopefully Spuds don't embarrass themselves in the Champions League like they did in this years Conference League where they couldn't get out of the group stage

 

[Iskra]

I dare say West Yorkshire Police would probably prefer Nottingham Forest, to avoid having a Leeds vs Huddersfield derby.

At least the last day of the Premiership this year had a few bits of unfinished business (1v2, 4v5, 6v7 & 17v18), better than a few years ago when pretty much everything was decided before round 38 meaning the last day was lacking in suspend.

Hopefully Spuds don't embarrass themselves in the Champions League like they did in this years Conference League where they couldn't get out of the group stage

Leeds v Forest is not much different to Leeds V Huddersfield in terms of animosity really- there’s all the Revie/Clough stuff and miners strike stuff that gets brought up.

Yeah it was good to have a season that remained interesting until the end, although it’s always better to know you aren’t in danger of relegation still on the last days as a fan!

 

[Spartacus]

Leeds v Forest is not much different to Leeds V Huddersfield in terms of animosity really- there’s all the Revie/Clough stuff and miners strike stuff that gets brought up.

Yeah it was good to have a season that remained interesting until the end, although it’s always better to know you aren’t in danger of relegation still on the last days as a fan!

That's looking at it from the Leeds point of view, but from many Town fan's point of view..... plus there's the easy opportunity for anything to kick of practically anywhere in West Yorkshire given how close geographically the two are. There's no hope of policing all travel, let along restricting it for one thing.

As for hoping Marsch throws the towel in, we're still playing much more entertaining football than we did the first season under George Graham when the favourite chant was "We'll score again, don't know where, don't know when.....", but the difference the season after was like night and day. Whoever took over was this season, going into a relegation dogfight, was always likely to be forced into a less attractive style of play.

 

[Iskra]

That's looking at it from the Leeds point of view, but from many Town fan's point of view..... plus there's the easy opportunity for anything to kick of practically anywhere in West Yorkshire given how close geographically the two are. There's no hope of policing all travel, let along restricting it for one thing.

As for hoping Marsch throws the towel in, we're still playing much more entertaining football than we did the first season under George Graham when the favourite chant was "We'll score again, don't know where, don't know when.....", but the difference the season after was like night and day. Whoever took over was this season, going into a relegation dogfight, was always likely to be forced into a less attractive style of play.

Yes, all the village idiots come out when we visit Huddersfield but WYP have always succeeded in making it a dull, turgid affair with an early kick off there, and we’ve played each other that much that the novelty seems to have worn off from my experiences going away there.

I can tolerate less interesting, effective football. But, I’m not seeing that- I’m seeing a team of players who are regressing, can barely string a few passes together anymore and aren’t improving in defence. Marsch is adding nothing tangible at all if you ask me- he’s just a more PR savvy Heckingbottom if you ask me.

 

[Spartacus]

I can tolerate less interesting, effective football. But, I’m not seeing that- I’m seeing a team of players who are regressing, can barely string a few passes together anymore and aren’t improving in defence. Marsch is adding nothing tangible at all if you ask me- he’s just a more PR savvy Heckingbottom if you ask me.

I think we were seeing that under Bielsa too. Those killer through balls, the disruptive cross balls, and even keeping possession with lots of passes, had gone, but masked by increasing the intensity.

 

[DarloRich]

Football hipsters, sky sports consumers, plastics and fifa fan boys judge on artistic merit. Real fans judge on results. There is SO much satisfaction going to an away game, playing like Burnley and grinding out a cynical 1-0 win. Lovely. Makes the hipsters so unhappy.

The truth is most hipsters miss the fact that few players and few teams can play like Liverpool and Citeh. Most teams playing like that will get turned over on a regular basis.

 

[Iskra]

Football hipsters, sky sports consumers, plastics and fifa fan boys judge on artistic merit. Real fans judge on results. There is SO much satisfaction going to an away game, playing like Burnley and grinding out a cynical 1-0 win. Lovely. Makes the hipsters so unhappy.

The truth is most hipsters miss the fact that few players and few teams can play like Liverpool and Citeh. Most teams playing like that will get turned over on a regular basis.

Like I said above, I can tolerate dull but effective football. Our problem is we are neither attractive nor (consistently) effective, and most fans won’t tolerate that. Luckily, the LUAFC owners agree with me and a statement they released yesterday evening, admits this season has not been good enough. So hopefully lessons will be learned.

 

[Phil56]

So what are you saying clubs need to show artistic merit to gain promotion? Perhaps you should consider going to Rhythmic gymnastics or Synchronised Swimming instead of nasty football.

Football is a spectator sport. It should entertain the fans. There are a few "big" clubs that don't understand that, and then whinge and whine when their supporter base starts to fall. The "dark arts", time wasting, and outright cheating do not make for a good spectator/entertainment experience, even if it's your own side doing it (assuming you're a fan and not a glory hunter).

2 or 3 new signings at the local club I support started doing time wasting at the start of the season by running to the corner far too early , i.e. sometimes as early as 80 minutes, and it made it painful to watch. It only happened a couple of times. Word was that the manager stamped on the practice, and it didn't happen for the rest of the season (OK maybe once or twice within 2/3 minutes of the final whistle which is standard for every club). Our numbers have been steadily rising due to the entertaining play on the pitch rather than trying to cheat or grind out draws.

 

[AlterEgo]

Like I said above, I can tolerate dull but effective football. Our problem is we are neither attractive nor (consistently) effective, and most fans won’t tolerate that.

You have to actually play football as well for it to be effective. Watch Wycombe - as well as many other teams, they are by no means alone - and see how often the ball is in play, especially if they get an early goal. 50-55 minutes out of the 90 I guess. That sort of gamesmanship, and the deliberate refusal to actually play the game is unacceptable. You can do that in the Sunday Leagues where nobody is paying to watch. Don't take the piss out of punters though.

Football hipsters, sky sports consumers, plastics and fifa fan boys judge on artistic merit. Real fans judge on results. There is SO much satisfaction going to an away game, playing like Burnley and grinding out a cynical 1-0 win. Lovely. Makes the hipsters so unhappy.

The truth is most hipsters miss the fact that few players and few teams can play like Liverpool and Citeh. Most teams playing like that will get turned over on a regular basis.

Yes, the real enemies of football, sure. More than half of your club's fans abandoned your team once it got screwed over by the owners and the League and effectively got told to play lower quality football in a much lower league. That's the same thing that happens to nearly every club that falls like that; Darlington were nothing special.

I was at Darlington in 2005 for the Carlisle game - about 8,500 in attendance - and I expect if I had bumped into you there you'd have spread your arms and said "this is real football, League Two, proper fans". Lo and behold ten years later half of them are doing something else on a Saturday because they don't want to watch football that far down the quality ladder.

No such thing as a "real fan". What next? 18,000 Wycombe fans at Wembley, you going to ask where they all are every weekend as Adams Park houses a third of that number? Much as I dislike their style of play, nobody gets to judge who a "real fan" is or who a "plastic" or "hipster" is. What, do I not get to go and watch my local non league team, Welling United, maybe twice a season, in case I'm not one of the hardcore? It's tedious, damaging gatekeeping and the game needs those fans and many people get put off the closed shop of live lower league football in case they aren't seen to have "served their apprenticeship" or whatever.

 

[DarloRich]

Yes, the real enemies of football, sure. More than half of your club's fans abandoned your team once it got screwed over by the owners and the League and effectively got told to play lower quality football in a much lower league. That's the same thing that happens to nearly every club that falls like that; Darlington were nothing special.

There is going to be a reduction in numbers when you are relegated 17 divisions and play against teams getting 150 a week! Our season ticket numbers have held up quite well in the time since we were relegated, forced to play in a different town and forced to have a new name. It is has been remarkable in that regard. We even take a proper away following which is something many clubs at our level don't do,

Sure, we lost some fans but the real fans stayed and rebuilt the club. We are the owners now.

I was at Darlington in 2005 for the Carlisle game - about 8,500 in attendance - and I expect if I had bumped into you there you'd have spread your arms and said "this is real football, League Two, proper fans". Lo and behold ten years later half of them are doing something else on a Saturday because they don't want to watch football that far down the quality ladder.

At the Arena? A larger than normal attendance caused by a derby game of sorts and a larger than normal away following. it may also have been during the BOGOF period that Reynolds brought in.

BTW Darlo have never got crowds of that level on any regular basis. For many years 1500 was a good turnout while we were chugging away in division 4!

you going to ask where they all are every weekend as Adams Park houses a third of that number?

Yes. Where are they? Interested enough to go to Wembley but not for Rochdale. No problem with people turning up to the big games but don't pretend to be something you are not. You aren't a fan. You are having a day out.

The key test is how many come back and give the Rochdale game a try. Not many I bet and it wouldn't matter if Wycombe played football you approve of. Football isn't just big games and success. It is mostly getting beaten and playing badly for years and years and years. Sky don't like to tell you that bit....................

nobody gets to judge who a "real fan" is or who a "plastic" or "hipster" is

Real fans know one when they see one.

It's tedious, damaging gatekeeping and the game needs those fans and many people get put off the closed shop of live lower league football in case they aren't seen to have "served their apprenticeship"

It isn't like that at all. Come along, enjoy the game, get involved, watch some real football close up, be realistic in your expectations, don't expect to see football you see on Sky and don't complain when you don't see that football. Don't slag of blokes who work in a factory or on the docks or in an office and play football for beer money when they cant control a ball like Messi or press like Liverpool.

 

[Runningaround]

You have to actually play football as well for it to be effective. Watch Wycombe - as well as many other teams, they are by no means alone - and see how often the ball is in play, especially if they get an early goal. 50-55 minutes out of the 90 I guess. That sort of gamesmanship, and the deliberate refusal to actually play the game is unacceptable. You can do that in the Sunday Leagues where nobody is paying to watch. Don't take the piss out of punters though.


Yes, the real enemies of football, sure. More than half of your club's fans abandoned your team once it got screwed over by the owners and the League and effectively got told to play lower quality football in a much lower league. That's the same thing that happens to nearly every club that falls like that; Darlington were nothing special.

I was at Darlington in 2005 for the Carlisle game - about 8,500 in attendance - and I expect if I had bumped into you there you'd have spread your arms and said "this is real football, League Two, proper fans". Lo and behold ten years later half of them are doing something else on a Saturday because they don't want to watch football that far down the quality ladder.

No such thing as a "real fan". What next? 18,000 Wycombe fans at Wembley, you going to ask where they all are every weekend as Adams Park houses a third of that number? Much as I dislike their style of play, nobody gets to judge who a "real fan" is or who a "plastic" or "hipster" is. What, do I not get to go and watch my local non league team, Welling United, maybe twice a season, in case I'm not one of the hardcore? It's tedious, damaging gatekeeping and the game needs those fans and many people get put off the closed shop of live lower league football in case they aren't seen to have "served their apprenticeship" or whatever.

But you are judging clubs by ''playing the right way'' or '' playing the wrong sort of football''. This only comes out on internet forums or the pub bore where they are quoting a pundit this has increased since twitter and 24 hour Sky Sports News appeared. I never hear it at the grounds. I get this feeling you get your football knowledge off Football Manager.
There isn't a fan in the world who wants to watch there side in a lower division even if going up costs more but many still turn up, you forget the financial situation were in now and attendances are still going strong, or increased lower down as it's better than sitting at home watching the telly. . Of course attendances drop after relegation the clubs they play are smaller, you don't get De Bruyne or Mo Salah in the Conference. Anyhow Wycombes have risen despite them playing as you say ''not in the correct way''. And do you think that Wycombes average is exactly the same person attending each week? or will it be like most clubs a mixture of season ticket holders, once a year, three times, get to a game when they can and ones who only go when not in work. They get to Wembley and they all go the same time so are they not worthy of being at Wembley as you think they are glory hunters? Was every Sunderland fan present attending constantly through the season, if they fill The Stadium of Light more next season are they ''only there when they aren't crap fans'' Would they not have turned up if Sunderland adopted your ''anti-football football''? And lower league football is exactly the opposite of ''Closed Shop'' for fans. Yor final sentence is complete bollocks.

There is going to be a reduction in numbers when you are relegated 17 divisions and play against teams getting 150 a week! Our season ticket numbers have held up quite well in the time since we were relegated, forced to play in a different town and forced to have a new name. It is has been remarkable in that regard. We even take a proper away following which is something many clubs at our level don't do,

Sure, we lost some fans but the real fans stayed and rebuilt the club. We are the owners now.


At the Arena? A larger than normal attendance caused by a derby game of sorts and a larger than normal away following. it may also have been during the BOGOF period that Reynolds brought in.

BTW Darlo have never got crowds of that level on any regular basis. For many years 1500 was a good turnout while we were chugging away in division 4!


Yes. Where are they? Interested enough to go to Wembley but not for Rochdale. No problem with people turning up to the big games but don't pretend to be something you are not. You aren't a fan. You are having a day out.

The key test is how many come back and give the Rochdale game a try. Not many I bet and it wouldn't matter if Wycombe played football you approve of. Football isn't just big games and success. It is mostly getting beaten and playing badly for years and years and years. Sky don't like to tell you that bit....................


Real fans know one when they see one.


It isn't like that at all. Come along, enjoy the game, get involved, watch some real football close up, be realistic in your expectations, don't expect to see football you see on Sky and don't complain when you don't see that football. Don't slag of blokes who work in a factory or on the docks or in an office and play football for beer money when they cant control a ball like Messi or press like Liverpool.

I agree with most apart from Wycombe fans not turning up for Rochdale. Football is expensive even at conference level your talking a significant outlay for a family, most pick and choose when they go, weeknights are no goer unless you're completely free for a night and following morning. Even season ticket holders at Anfield/Old Trafford will pick which games they go to and sell the ones the can't make or have less interest in going to. And I doubt many United fans gave up their ST due to Hiddink and Mourinho's style of football.
Almost all Wycombe fans will have attended a few games this season, just not all at the same game for every game, and when your biggest game of the season is played at a national stadium a few miles away I gather they're all going to go and if possible take a friend along if tickets are available. I bet a lot of Sunderland fans will have done the same.

 

[DarloRich]

Almost all Wycombe fans will have attended a few games this season, just not all at the same game for every game, and when your biggest game of the season is played at a national stadium a few miles away I gather they're all going to go and if possible take a friend along if tickets are available. I bet a lot of Sunderland fans will have done the same.

that is fine - but come back and try the Rochdale game. You might like it! if you like it enough maybe try a half season ticket or the carnet type affair many teams now offer. Before you know it you will be on the coach to the away games and starting to be a proper fan

( and yes football is VERY expensive especially for families)

 

[Runningaround]

Football is a spectator sport. It should entertain the fans. There are a few "big" clubs that don't understand that, and then whinge and whine when their supporter base starts to fall. The "dark arts", time wasting, and outright cheating do not make for a good spectator/entertainment experience, even if it's your own side doing it (assuming you're a fan and not a glory hunter).

2 or 3 new signings at the local club I support started doing time wasting at the start of the season by running to the corner far too early , i.e. sometimes as early as 80 minutes, and it made it painful to watch. It only happened a couple of times. Word was that the manager stamped on the practice, and it didn't happen for the rest of the season (OK maybe once or twice within 2/3 minutes of the final whistle which is standard for every club). Our numbers have been steadily rising due to the entertaining play on the pitch rather than trying to cheat or grind out draws.

That's the polar opposite to my findings. I've noticed the increased LL crowds and growing interest in Rugby is due to the Skin Care Moisturiser advertising Prima Donnas play acting while playing in the Champions League/Premier League. I.E Cristiano Ronaldo possibly the greatest player of all time.

that is fine - but come back and try the Rochdale game. You might like it! if you like it enough maybe try a half season ticket or the carnet type affair many teams now offer. Before you know it you will be on the coach to the away games and starting to be a proper fan

( and yes football is VERY expensive especially for families)

Football being on TV and parents finding it too expensive is going to change the kids choice of who they support if they get into the game initially. If you can't afford to go the kid will watch it on the telly and as it's Man City and Liverpool on most it'll be them two.
I actually think LL football is gaining from extorinate ''92 club pricing''.
A clubhouse showing the lunchtime SKY kick-off and a £5 Adult entry + free kids home cooked food and run by volunteers who care enough to cook proper food (rather than the minimum waged staff who don't want to be there at professional stadiums). Many will have kids football on in the morning nearby and as you've curtailed the travelling it works out as an affordable day out.
Even the local groups of lads of cottoned onto it as you can have a good pint at decent price and watch the game.

''The Closed Shop'' on LL is obviously a comment off someone who hasn't a clue what he's on about.

I mean try striking up a conversation at a Wolves Watford game where the fan is there not because he really wants to be but is attending as he's paid for a season ticket and doesn't want to lose money. And compare it with chatting to a local volunteer at Shifnal Town over a pint.

 

[D6968]

There is going to be a reduction in numbers when you are relegated 17 divisions and play against teams getting 150 a week! Our season ticket numbers have held up quite well in the time since we were relegated, forced to play in a different town and forced to have a new name. It is has been remarkable in that regard. We even take a proper away following which is something many clubs at our level don't do,

Sure, we lost some fans but the real fans stayed and rebuilt the club. We are the owners now.


At the Arena? A larger than normal attendance caused by a derby game of sorts and a larger than normal away following. it may also have been during the BOGOF period that Reynolds brought in.

BTW Darlo have never got crowds of that level on any regular basis. For many years 1500 was a good turnout while we were chugging away in division 4!


Yes. Where are they? Interested enough to go to Wembley but not for Rochdale. No problem with people turning up to the big games but don't pretend to be something you are not. You aren't a fan. You are having a day out.

The key test is how many come back and give the Rochdale game a try. Not many I bet and it wouldn't matter if Wycombe played football you approve of. Football isn't just big games and success. It is mostly getting beaten and playing badly for years and years and years. Sky don't like to tell you that bit....................


Real fans know one when they see one.


It isn't like that at all. Come along, enjoy the game, get involved, watch some real football close up, be realistic in your expectations, don't expect to see football you see on Sky and don't complain when you don't see that football. Don't slag of blokes who work in a factory or on the docks or in an office and play football for beer money when they cant control a ball like Messi or press like Liverpool.

I really would like to ‘like’ this post, all the BS that Tottenham have around their ground about ‘The game is about glory’ is totally untrue, it’s all about hardship and misery but the odd season that’s decent for about 86/87 of fans those clubs that aren’t at the top end.

 

[AlterEgo]

But you are judging clubs by ''playing the right way'' or '' playing the wrong sort of football''.

I'm allowed to, I pays my money I takes my choice. Football is a form of entertainment.

This only comes out on internet forums or the pub bore where they are quoting a pundit this has increased since twitter and 24 hour Sky Sports News appeared. I never hear it at the grounds.

I do.

I get this feeling you get your football knowledge off Football Manager.

I have never played Football Manager and would wager I have played at a higher level than most people in this forum, having been in the youth team of what was then a Championship level club until I was 18.

There isn't a fan in the world who wants to watch there side in a lower division even if going up costs more but many still turn up, you forget the financial situation were in now and attendances are still going strong, or increased lower down as it's better than sitting at home watching the telly. . Of course attendances drop after relegation the clubs they play are smaller

So I'm right then, many people do indeed choose not to watch lower quality football. This is obvious and doesn't mean that people who were there the previous season but not the next aren't "real fans".

, you don't get De Bruyne or Mo Salah in the Conference.

Haven't seen them in League One either.

Anyhow Wycombes have risen despite them playing as you say ''not in the correct way''. And do you think that Wycombes average is exactly the same person attending each week? or will it be like most clubs a mixture of season ticket holders, once a year, three times, get to a game when they can and ones who only go when not in work.

Most of them will be season ticket holders, and yes, some will be more casual. They are all genuine fans.

They get to Wembley and they all go the same time so are they not worthy of being at Wembley as you think they are glory hunters?

Literally the opposite of what I implied.

Was every Sunderland fan present attending constantly through the season, if they fill The Stadium of Light more next season are they ''only there when they aren't crap fans'' Would they not have turned up if Sunderland adopted your ''anti-football football''? And lower league football is exactly the opposite of ''Closed Shop'' for fans. Yor final sentence is complete bollocks.

It's really not at all, the "real fan" stuff comes out the closer you get to the bottom of the football period. I see this all the time on forums and some teams can be very cliquey. That's fine; every club has a different culture, but at the same time people harp on almost moralistically about "support your local team" so I think the lower leagues have some way to go in making themselves more attractive. Youtube channels like Bunch of Amateurs are bringing non league football to a newer and younger audience but many clubs still have a problem in attracting non-traditional fans like women, children and ethnic minorities.

There is going to be a reduction in numbers when you are relegated 17 divisions and play against teams getting 150 a week! Our season ticket numbers have held up quite well in the time since we were relegated, forced to play in a different town and forced to have a new name. It is has been remarkable in that regard. We even take a proper away following which is something many clubs at our level don't do,

Sure, we lost some fans but the real fans stayed and rebuilt the club. We are the owners now.

They were all real fans, that is the thing. The ones who stayed and rebuilt, great! But if I go to a Darlington match now, I expect they're pulling in a decent number of people who actually didn't stay, and who have either been tempted in from the wilderness or even are new fans entirely. Not everyone has their local team assigned at birth or by branding with a cattle prod. Some people come to teams through different processes. I was practically instructed to be a Liverpool fan in 1990, yet the only reason my dad supported Liverpool is because it was the first team he had ever watched live in the 1950s in the Second Division, as the boat from Belfast went to Liverpool.

At the Arena? A larger than normal attendance caused by a derby game of sorts and a larger than normal away following. it may also have been during the BOGOF period that Reynolds brought in.

Many away fans yes, but still a decent turnout for home fans. I was in the away end.

Yes. Where are they? Interested enough to go to Wembley but not for Rochdale. No problem with people turning up to the big games but don't pretend to be something you are not. You aren't a fan. You are having a day out.

There's the closed shop again which @Runningaround thinks doesn't exist.

The key test is how many come back and give the Rochdale game a try.

No, it isn't.

Not many I bet and it wouldn't matter if Wycombe played football you approve of.

The ethos of a club makes a big difference. I went to a Brentford game this season with a friend. That is a lovely club in a brand new stadium with excellent facilities which tries to play good football. There is a different vibe about the place and I would imagine they are creating more "new" fans this season than QPR up the road. Football clubs have to compete for fanbases, that's an inescapable fact. Playing industrial football and wasting 40% of the game with the ball being out of play is not going to make you more attractive to watch.

Football isn't just big games and success. It is mostly getting beaten and playing badly for years and years and years. Sky don't like to tell you that bit....................


Real fans know one when they see one.

Really.

It isn't like that at all. Come along, enjoy the game, get involved, watch some real football close up, be realistic in your expectations, don't expect to see football you see on Sky and don't complain when you don't see that football.

No I agree! People should go to the non leagues, I ground hop around Welling and Ebbsfleet and Dartford and I like going to watch games of football. But people who are encouraging others to go shouldn't imply those who poke their head around the corner aren't "real fans".

Don't slag of blokes who work in a factory or on the docks or in an office and play football for beer money when they cant control a ball like Messi or press like Liverpool.

I have literally played at that level before so I don't need to be patronised when it comes to players who aren't blessed with ability!