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Darandio

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I quite like the concept of the sprint race and did enjoy the fairly flat out nature of what happened last night. But it will only work properly if the 2022 regulations have produced something where the car following isn't penalised as much in the dirty air of the car in front like it has been for too many years now. So it's something to tinker with this year but would be potentially so much better from next season.

What I don't agree with is using it as the vehicle for the qualifying grid and pole position for the main race. One concept I thought might work was adding 5-10 minutes to the first practice where each driver gets one lap at qualification for the sprint race. This adds possible jeopardy for those who haven't got the setup quite right yet and might have more mid and lower field cars further up for the sprint race. Then run that race on the Friday evening with a second free practice and qualifying as normal on the Saturday to determine the Sunday grid.
 

Domh245

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I've enjoyed the action on Friday/Saturday, but we can only really judge the success of the format change after the race has run later today. There's a decent likelihood that the sprint race has just sorted everyone out into race-pace order, so today will be completely processional.

oof, that was a big one. Opens the championship up again though
 
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kristiang85

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Thoughts on "the incident"?

I do find it quite extraordinary that driver can be adjudged to be at fault for quite a serious incident yet get a penalty that still enables them to win the race. Personally I do think Lewis was at fault, given he wouldn't have made that corner on the line he took.

Really gutted for Leclerc - he deserved that one; didn't put a foot wrong.
 

najaB

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Personally I do think Lewis was at fault, given he wouldn't have made that corner on the line he took.
Don't know that I agree. Even with the collision he was still only *just* outside the white lines when he exited the corner.
1626631398323.png

That said, end of the day, he hadn't made the pass so it was mostly his responsibility to avoid a collision.
 
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JamesRowden

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Thoughts on "the incident"?

I do find it quite extraordinary that driver can be adjudged to be at fault for quite a serious incident yet get a penalty that still enables them to win the race. Personally I do think Lewis was at fault, given he wouldn't have made that corner on the line he took.

Really gutted for Leclerc - he deserved that one; didn't put a foot wrong.
As I see it, the reason that Verstappen was ahead of Hamilton at the contact was because Hamilton had backed off to provide space for both cars to get through the corner together, and Verstappen hadn't. I think that Hamilton got the penalty for gaining an advantage from a potentially dangerous racing incident, and Verstappen had been given his effective penalty by the direct result of the collision.

Just before the contact it was only Verstappen who could stop the collision by not turning in so far.

Giving Hamilton a penalty in this instance is probably designed to discourage drivers in Hamilton's position from being tempted to deliberately cause or increase the chance of a collision for their own advantage.
 

Peter Mugridge

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As I see it, the reason that Verstappen was ahead of Hamilton at the contact was because Hamilton had backed off to provide space for both cars to get through the corner together, and Verstappen hadn't. I think that Hamilton got the penalty for gaining an advantage from a potentially dangerous racing incident, and Verstappen had been given his effective penalty by the direct result of the collision.

Just before the contact it was only Verstappen who could stop the collision by not turning in so far.
I agree; Verstappen must have been aware by that point that Hamilton was alongside; it is also clear from the replays that Hamilton did back off while Verstappen continued to move to the right.

Giving Hamilton a penalty in this instance is probably designed to discourage drivers in Hamilton's position from being tempted to deliberately cause or increase the chance of a collision for their own advantage.
It's a pity they didn't think this way in previous years - people have done far more dangerous things in the past and not received even the slightest penalty for it - for example, Michael Schumacher deliberately ramming Damon Hill off the track in order to win a championship. Shumacher should have been black-flagged instantly for that. It wasn't even the only time he deliberately rammed someone off the track.


Which is why, controversy over today or not, much as I like seeing different winners I would like to see Hamilton win an 8th championship - it will wipe Shumacher off the record books...
 

Nicholas Lewis

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I agree; Verstappen must have been aware by that point that Hamilton was alongside; it is also clear from the replays that Hamilton did back off while Verstappen continued to move to the right.
Stewards are given all the telemetry from the cars so they would have been able to see that Hamilton had backed off and what steering inputs he was using and my guess its because of this that the penalty was more lenient than some feel it should have been. At the end of the day the two drivers are racing each other and for Hamilton to say Versatppen is too aggressive is laughable. Your not going to just invite Hamilton past if you want to win the world championship. Im sure we will see some reflection from both drivers before we get to Hungary and battle will be restored.
 

daodao

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I do find it quite extraordinary that driver can be adjudged to be at fault for quite a serious incident yet get a penalty that still enables them to win the race. Personally I do think Lewis was at fault, given he wouldn't have made that corner on the line he took.
Exactly. I have listened to the comments on Radio 4 this morning; it seems to me that Hamilton should have been instantly disqualified for having caused the accident. An appropriate punishment would have been a 25 point deduction in the championship, rather than a 25 point bonus for stealing the race win.
 

birchesgreen

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Its not a good look if the driver at fault (as decided by the stewards) goes on to win while the other party goes to hospital. However, that is racing. Earlier in the season Perez was penalised for knocking someone off though the other driver (was it a Ferrari i can't remember) was penalised far more by the action.
 

Geezertronic

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Exactly. I have listened to the comments on Radio 4 this morning; it seems to me that Hamilton should have been instantly disqualified for having caused the accident. An appropriate punishment would have been a 25 point deduction in the championship, rather than a 25 point bonus for stealing the race win.

On what basis? Personally, I think Hamilton is more to blame than Max as he missed the apex so took the penalty on that basis. Certainly no need for hyperbole from Helmut. Yes his driver was involved in a big crash - probably the worst of his career so far - but that is what happens when you get hard racing. They had already touched several times since the start, Hamilton had already backed out once/twice, this is probably the first time that Max has come off second best with Hamilton in wheel-to-wheel racing
 

najaB

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An appropriate punishment would have been a 25 point deduction in the championship, rather than a 25 point bonus for stealing the race win.
"Stealing" the race win by racing hard? Yes, they touched, but it could just as easily have ended up with Hamilton, both or neither of them in the barriers. If you want wheel-to-wheel racing then occasionally you're going to end up with contact.
 

Bald Rick

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I do find it quite extraordinary that driver can be adjudged to be at fault for quite a serious incident yet get a penalty that still enables them to win the race. Personally I do think Lewis was at fault, given he wouldn't have made that corner on the line he took.

It wasn’t a serious incident on the track - it was wheel to wheel contact on a fast section of track, following a slight misjudgement by Hamilton. It was, however, a serious outcome.

The stewards make their judgement on the causes of the incident, not the outcome; this is a long held principle. Had Verstappen spun, and rejoined the race, Hamilton would have had the same penalty.
 

kristiang85

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It wasn’t a serious incident on the track - it was wheel to wheel contact on a fast section of track, following a slight misjudgement by Hamilton. It was, however, a serious outcome.

The stewards make their judgement on the causes of the incident, not the outcome; this is a long held principle. Had Verstappen spun, and rejoined the race, Hamilton would have had the same penalty.

I think it does need to take into account the corner though. Norris (and others) got 5s penalties in Austria for misdemeanours on a much slower corner, whereas the penalty for being judged to be at fault in a much faster and more dangerous corner - and taking out a title rival no less - is only an extra 5 seconds.

Now I do believe all accidents should be looked at objectively, but if you look at precedent - One of the reasons Grosjean got a ban for Spa 2012 was because he caused an accident that had an effect on championship contenders.

I'm not saying that was ban worthy, that would be ridiculous. But Kvyat got a ten second stop go penalty in Bahrain for tipping stroll over in a very slow accident, so I think that would have been fair here.
 

nlogax

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Great race yesterday and fantastic to see the crowds out in force. I'm determined to return to a GP or two next season and witness the scenes with my own eyes and ears.
 

bspahh

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At Copse, Hamilton was level going into the corner on the inside line. Earlier that lap at Brooklands, Verstappen had been on the inside line, half a car length behind and Hamilton had to get out of his way. A penalty for Hamilton was fine as its never good for your front tyre to hit the rear tyre of the guy in front, but I don't think it was worthy of a more serious penalty.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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On what basis? Personally, I think Hamilton is more to blame than Max as he missed the apex so took the penalty on that basis. Certainly no need for hyperbole from Helmut. Yes his driver was involved in a big crash - probably the worst of his career so far - but that is what happens when you get hard racing. They had already touched several times since the start, Hamilton had already backed out once/twice, this is probably the first time that Max has come off second best with Hamilton in wheel-to-wheel racing
Hamilton was making the move before the corner but he wasn't on the racing line, not that its drawn on the circuit of course, nor was he first at the apex but thats motor racing and plenty of drivers make these sort of moves its whether it was cavalier or not that matters. Personally, and i will declare i want to see Red Bull turn over Mercedes, this wasn't some outrageous lunge move and by the finest or margin it could have been a non event. I suspect had Verstappen not ended up in such a bad crash it would have been seen as a racing incident by the stewards.

Also people being over vocal about the incident and calling for something more severe risk taking F1 back to the bad days when it becomes a procession around the circuit. Anyhow im sure by Hungary they will have reassessed it and moved on.
 

Geezertronic

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Hamilton was making the move before the corner but he wasn't on the racing line, not that its drawn on the circuit of course, nor was he first at the apex but thats motor racing and plenty of drivers make these sort of moves its whether it was cavalier or not that matters. Personally, and i will declare i want to see Red Bull turn over Mercedes, this wasn't some outrageous lunge move and by the finest or margin it could have been a non event. I suspect had Verstappen not ended up in such a bad crash it would have been seen as a racing incident by the stewards.

Also people being over vocal about the incident and calling for something more severe risk taking F1 back to the bad days when it becomes a procession around the circuit. Anyhow im sure by Hungary they will have reassessed it and moved on.

I personally think the two times Albon was taken out by Hamilton were worse from a drivers standards point of view, and I guess those two incidents have played a part in the over-reaction
 

LOL The Irony

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Exactly. I have listened to the comments on Radio 4 this morning; it seems to me that Hamilton should have been instantly disqualified for having caused the accident. An appropriate punishment would have been a 25 point deduction in the championship, rather than a 25 point bonus for stealing the race win.
I know, how about we put 5 mph bumpers and rubber strips on the cars? And while we're at it, limit the cars to 100 mph? I actually like hard racing, so how about we start getting rid of bs penalties for dumb infractions? Both Max and Lewis could've given each other a bit more space, end of.
Its not a good look if the driver at fault (as decided by the stewards) goes on to win while the other party goes to hospital. However, that is racing. Earlier in the season Perez was penalised for knocking someone off though the other driver (was it a Ferrari i can't remember) was penalised far more by the action.
It was Charles Leclerc who was the Ferrari. These penalties for minor incidents really need to get dropped. BTW, in the previous race, Leclerc had taken Pierre Gasly out on lap 1 and didn't get a penalty, so I personally think he should've just got on with being run off the race track. If anything, it highlights a major problem the race director and stewards have - their inconsistency with penalties.
I suspect had Verstappen not ended up in such a bad crash it would have been seen as a racing incident by the stewards.
Correct.
Also people being over vocal about the incident and calling for something more severe risk taking F1 back to the bad days when it becomes a procession around the circuit. Anyhow im sure by Hungary they will have reassessed it and moved on.
Well a lot of it is Verstappen fans and Hamilton haters. I'm sure if the shoe was on the other foot, they'd be saying how Lewis should've left Max more room and it was his own fault. If the roles were swapped, the arguments would still be the same, just from different sides.
I personally think the two times Albon was taken out by Hamilton were worse from a drivers standards point of view, and I guess those two incidents have played a part in the over-reaction
Maybe Albon shouldn't have left gaps you could park a 747 in.
 

GB

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If anything, it highlights a major problem the race director and stewards have - their inconsistency with penalties.

Nothing to do with the race director. Although he can refer things to the stewards (as can the teams) he has no say in the investigation or the outcome. With regards the stewards, they are usually different each race which is probably why there are inconsistencies.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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This what the stewards decided

The Stewards reviewed video and telemetry evidence. Cars 33 and 44 entered turn 9 with Car 33 in the lead and Car 44 slightly behind and on the inside. Car 44 was on a line that did not reach the apex of the corner, with room available to the inside. When Car 33 turned into the corner, Car 44 did not avoid contact and the left front of Car 44 contacted the right rear of Car 33. Car 44 is judged predominantly at fault.
full document
 

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