Formula 1

[66701GBRF]

No penalty for Russell. Stewards accepted he gave back more than he gained.

 

[stuart81]

I think the next race is massive for Norris. If Piastri beats him again I fear his head will drop again.

 

[Efini92]

The Verstappen incident was due to the team removing a piece of the equipment on the nozzle so that they could pump fuel faster than the regulations allowed wasn't it?

Yes it was, was one of many incidents of Benneton blatantly cheating. The 1994 traction control debacle springs to mind as well.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

A very good drive from Oscar Piastri today to win the race, controlled it from the start with great pace & tyre management. George Russell might get a penalty for using DRS incorrectly but had various issues in the car towards the end including a brake-by-wire failure & issues with the steering wheel.

Other good drives today were Lewis Hamilton 9th to 5th, Ollie Bearman 20th to 10th & a point.

The Red Bull pace today was poor with the choice of the hard tyre for Max producing no pace & only able to recover to sixth. Yuki Tsunoda did finish ninth but had contact during the race with Carlos Sainz who was the only retiree.

Other teams to have dreadful races were Aston Martin & Racing Bulls.

Doohan also picked up the pace from his early season outings and was gutted for Gasly just missing out on the last lap for sixth.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Yes it was, was one of many incidents of Benneton blatantly cheating. The 1994 traction control debacle springs to mind as well.

The whole traction control thing is really still up in question. The evidence today suggests that Benneton weren't actually cheating with their form of traction control, and several ex-Benneton employees have openly said that it was carried out by a very clever way of monitoring various parameters and then cutting power when the car was above the parameters for a given track condition. The system was incredibly hard on engines, but that wasn't an issue back then, especially as the engine manufacturers were more than happy to supply as many engines as was needed to winning teams.

This would explain why Senna felt that they were using traction control, because they were, but a form of it that was legal according to the rules at the time.

While the popular belief is that Benneton were cheating a lot in the 1994 season, even the Verstappen incident was caused by something that plenty of the other teams were also doing. The FIA were hopeless back then at policing the sport, and to be honest, I'd be surprised if other teams weren't also massively cheating.

 

[Efini92]

The whole traction control thing is really still up in question. The evidence today suggests that Benneton weren't actually cheating with their form of traction control, and several ex-Benneton employees have openly said that it was carried out by a very clever way of monitoring various parameters and then cutting power when the car was above the parameters for a given track condition. The system was incredibly hard on engines, but that wasn't an issue back then, especially as the engine manufacturers were more than happy to supply as many engines as was needed to winning teams.

This would explain why Senna felt that they were using traction control, because they were, but a form of it that was legal according to the rules at the time.

While the popular belief is that Benneton were cheating a lot in the 1994 season, even the Verstappen incident was caused by something that plenty of the other teams were also doing. The FIA were hopeless back then at policing the sport, and to be honest, I'd be surprised if other teams weren't also massively cheating.

I think they were upto something illegal as they refused to give the FIA access to their ecu’s.
Agreed the FIA were useless, they seemed to exist just to appease Ferrari back then.

 

[sannox]

I think they were upto something illegal as they refused to give the FIA access to their ecu’s.
Agreed the FIA were useless, they seemed to exist just to appease Ferrari back then.

Ferrari International Assistance at times. The penalty given to Montoya in 2002 is a poor call (and the first drive through penalty in the sport).

 

[Efini92]

Ferrari International Assistance at times. The penalty given to Montoya in 2002 is a poor call (and the first drive through penalty in the sport).

Ah yes, I forgot about that one. Was a very poor decision indeed.

 

[DarloRich]

Just caught up with the Bahrain GP - Red Bull nowhere and uncompetitive, Norris seemed in a funny mood ( he really needs to work on his psychological resilience ) Mercedes over performed, Ferrari not really on it, Okon did well, Bearman picked up another point (moving 20th to 10th) but Piastri dominated.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Just caught up with the Bahrain GP - Red Bull nowhere and uncompetitive, Norris seemed in a funny mood ( he really needs to work on his psychological resilience ) Mercedes over performed, Ferrari not really on it, Bearman picked up another point but Piastri dominated.

Championship is Piastri to lose he is calm collected and focussed whereas Norris looks disillusioned at the interviews when things don't go his way and it comes through on the track doing moves that aren't going to achieve other than lose him time. On the other hand perhaps its deliberate and part of a psychological game.

At least its was entertaining after the Chinese procession.

 

[DarloRich]

Championship is Piastri to lose he is calm collected and focussed whereas Norris looks disillusioned at the interviews when things don't go his way and it comes through on the track doing moves that aren't going to achieve other than lose him time. On the other hand perhaps its deliberate and part of a psychological game.

it is a bit early to make that statement imo!

 

[PG]

At least its was entertaining after the Chinese Japanese procession.

Fixed that for you

 

[RailWonderer]

Championship is Piastri to lose he is calm collected and focussed whereas Norris looks disillusioned at the interviews when things don't go his way and it comes through on the track doing moves that aren't going to achieve other than lose him time. On the other hand perhaps its deliberate and part of a psychological game.

At least its was entertaining after the Chinese procession.

Norris certainly seems less resilient and calm than Piastri but he's not a slow teammate either. Norris has been with that team for years and his pace is always quick even if he fumbles. Piastri needs to be consistently winning races and consistently on the podium to have a shot, especially with the threat of other teams taking wins off him here and there.

 

[Cloud Strife]

I think they were upto something illegal as they refused to give the FIA access to their ecu’s.
Agreed the FIA were useless, they seemed to exist just to appease Ferrari back then.

The issue with the engine management systems was that the engine manufacturers simply didn't want to provide the source code. Ferrari were able to do it because they manufactured their own engines, but both Ford (Benneton) and Cosworth (McLaren) were very unhappy about having to share this with the FIA.

As much as I dislike Briatore, Benneton likely didn't cheat in the 1994 season, despite all the claims to the contrary. Their traction control system was legal, the launch control couldn't be proven to have been used by the FIA (and it's likely that they were simply using the traction control system anyway),

One interesting comparison is how Schumacher was able to drive the B194 while others struggled, just as we're seeing today with Max in the RB21. While it was painted as solid evidence that Schumacher was cheating, I think the problems with the RB21 confirm that it is possible to have a car that only the greatest can actually drive properly.

Another issue in the 1994 season is that Senna is the source of many of the claims that there was something wrong with the B194. Yet, he was struggling with an absolute pig of a car that should never have been raced, and so it's understandable as to why he would be so frustrated. Even the case with Jos Verstappen and the fuel filter isn't really clear, because Benneton obtained permission from Charlie Whiting, who also had previously ruled something legal only for it to be later banned by the FIA - the 1993 McLaren brake system.

 

[Efini92]

The issue with the engine management systems was that the engine manufacturers simply didn't want to provide the source code. Ferrari were able to do it because they manufactured their own engines, but both Ford (Benneton) and Cosworth (McLaren) were very unhappy about having to share this with the FIA.

As much as I dislike Briatore, Benneton likely didn't cheat in the 1994 season, despite all the claims to the contrary. Their traction control system was legal, the launch control couldn't be proven to have been used by the FIA (and it's likely that they were simply using the traction control system anyway),

One interesting comparison is how Schumacher was able to drive the B194 while others struggled, just as we're seeing today with Max in the RB21. While it was painted as solid evidence that Schumacher was cheating, I think the problems with the RB21 confirm that it is possible to have a car that only the greatest can actually drive properly.

Another issue in the 1994 season is that Senna is the source of many of the claims that there was something wrong with the B194. Yet, he was struggling with an absolute pig of a car that should never have been raced, and so it's understandable as to why he would be so frustrated. Even the case with Jos Verstappen and the fuel filter isn't really clear, because Benneton obtained permission from Charlie Whiting, who also had previously ruled something legal only for it to be later banned by the FIA - the 1993 McLaren brake system.

That’s a fair point re the engine manufacturers.
And I’d say that’s a good comparison to verstappen and the RB21.
The point about the Williams harks back to the FIA appeasing Ferrari. They were too quick to ban the electronic aids without giving thought to how it would affect the cars. The FW16 being the prime example.

 

[Cloud Strife]

The point about the Williams harks back to the FIA appeasing Ferrari. They were too quick to ban the electronic aids without giving thought to how it would affect the cars. The FW16 being the prime example.

Yes, this was one of the worst decisions ever by the FIA. They banned all the driver aids without considering that the teams had invested huge amounts of resources into developing their cars with driver aids in mind, and there's plenty of evidence from Patrick Head and Adrian Newey that they were really struggling with the car before Imola. They seemed to be able to set it up for qualifying, but I maintain that the mayhem at Imola was entirely down to the teams running with designs that were never meant to be raced without driver aids.

As much as Senna complained about the Benneton in Brazil, I think it's clear in hindsight that there were serious problems with the FW16, and Senna was having to push the car beyond its limits just to keep up with Schumacher. It probably didn't help that Senna knew that Benneton had figured out something with traction control, and I often wonder if Williams also knew what they were doing, but that they didn't want to upset Renault by using the same system.

Had they banned driver aids from the 1995 season, it would've been fine, as the teams would have had a chance to create brand new designs.

 

[D365]

The issue with the engine management systems was that the engine manufacturers simply didn't want to provide the source code. Ferrari were able to do it because they manufactured their own engines, but both Ford (Benneton) and Cosworth (McLaren) were very unhappy about having to share this with the FIA.

McLaren was using Peugeot engines in 1994 - although they did have a ’customer’ Ford deal in 1993.

 

[JD2168]

At the Saudi Arabian Grand Prix Max Verstappen has qualified on Pole position, beating Oscar Piastri by .010 of a second. In third was George Russell & fourth was Charles Leclerc. Lando Norris crashed into the barrier at the exit of turn 4 on his first Q3 lap so will start tenth.

With regards 1994, the banning of driver aids did not help Williams who had mastered them the most as seen with the FW15C. Other things around Imola I think were:
Underdeveloped cars that were originally designed with driver aids, remember that Imola was the first lower downforce circuit after Interlagos & the slow Aida.
A rediculous safety car in the shape of the Vectra that was far too slow, the cars should have gone through the pit lane as well to reduce any chances of punctures.
Senna’s crash for me has always been too low tyre pressures coupled with a tricky Williams as we saw in Brazil when Ayrton spun out of Juncao.
Some of the car designs had become dangerous particularly the very low sides to the cockpit

 

[Efini92]

At the Saudi Arabian Grand Prix Max Verstappen has qualified on Pole position, beating Oscar Poland by .010 of a second. In third was George Russell & fourth was Charles Leclerc. Lando Norris crashed into the barrier at the exit of turn 4 on his first Q3 lap so will start tenth.

With regards 1994, the banning of driver aids did not help Williams who had mastered them the most as seen with the FW15C. Other things around Imola I think were:
Underdeveloped cars that were originally designed with driver aids, remember that Imola was the first lower downforce circuit after Interlagos & the slow Aida.
A rediculous safety car in the shape of the Vectra that was far too slow, the cars should have gone through the pit lane as well to reduce any chances of punctures.
Senna’s crash for me has always been too low tyre pressures coupled with a tricky Williams as we saw in Brazil when Ayrton spun out of Juncao.
Some of the car designs had become dangerous particularly the very low sides to the cockpit

Oscar Poland is one the best autocorrect’s I’ve seen

 

[JD2168]

Oscar Poland is one the best autocorrect’s I’ve seen

Sorted it now, in no thanks to the autocorrect system

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

it is a bit early to make that statement imo!

Well Norris hasn't helped himself again hes getting far too ragged trying to prove hes top dog. Still should have the pace to make up a few places tomorrow to limit the damage.

 

[Strat-tastic]

Oscar Poland is one the best autocorrect’s I’ve seen

Shame it doesn't remove errant apostrophes

 

[Efini92]

Shame it doesn't remove errant apostrophes

it got me too.

 

[BingMan]

Red Bull made a bad call by not telling Max to give back the place to Pastries
Without the subsequent 5 second penalty Max would have in a very good position to win the race

 

[Efini92]

Red Bull made a bad call by not telling Max to give back the place to Pastries
Without the subsequent 5 second penalty Max would have in a very good position to win the race

I’m not sure it’s that easy to call. Piastri said he struggled when following in the turbulent air. Verstappen would no doubt have had the same struggles.

 

[DelW]

Red Bull made a bad call by not telling Max to give back the place to Pastries
Without the subsequent 5 second penalty Max would have in a very good position to win the race

Typical Max arrogance for me, try to get away with anything you can, win any way you can (see also M Schumacher snr).

A couple of places back another car (Antonelli?) also ran wide in turn 2, but immediately gave the place back with no drama or stewards' involvement.

I’m not sure it’s that easy to call. Piastri said he struggled when following in the turbulent air. Verstappen would no doubt have had the same struggles.

I suspect that's one reason MV held onto the place he'd gained illegally, it gave him the benefit of cleaner and cooler air.

 

[GB]

Time to dispense of the first lap leniency in my opinion, especially if it involves podium places.

 

[JamesT]

Red Bull made a bad call by not telling Max to give back the place to Pastries
Without the subsequent 5 second penalty Max would have in a very good position to win the race

I wonder if the safety car coming immediately afterwards was a factor? Even if Red Bull thought a penalty was coming, they couldn't hand back under the safety car as there's no overtaking allowed.

 

[najaB]

I wonder if the safety car coming immediately afterwards was a factor? Even if Red Bull thought a penalty was coming, they couldn't hand back under the safety car as there's no overtaking allowed.

There was time to do it immediately. As noted above, Antonelli managed it.

There wasn't even a hint of attempting to give it back. Even a radio message from MV asking if he had to give the place back might have helped his cause.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Very commendable performance by Norris after qualy shambles and actually very stoic in the car with well deserved P4 although I thought he'd blown it when he was put under investigation but kept his head down.