Future of Ticket Office Consultations launched

[Starmill]

Precisely.

And it's also about fear of crime. Which plays a huge part of many people's lives who probably don't happen to post on railway forums.

Indeed. But it actually goes even beyond that, it's of benefit to you to have a member of staff at a station even if they won't help you. They do of course help sometimes for all kinds of other reasons, but the following one might be of use to a certain type of customer who does post on here.

This is because you can rely on whatever you're told by a member of staff on duty as being the official position of the company. So for example if you're entitled to rerouting under the PRO as a result of over an hour of delay to your journey, you absolutely must ask the station staff to arrange this for you. If they tell you they won't be doing anything to help you whatsoever, you can then take that and rely on it later to make a claim for damages. If you don't contact someone, before incurring costs such as a taxi fare to get you back in line with the PRO, your claim could be refuted on the basis that you didn't even try to mitigate those losses.

 

[pt_mad]

Some stations (Town Green I think is one) already have a solution to this - a button to press to request for it to be opened remotely, upon which you can be asked to show your ticket to a camera.

Do we really think that is likely to happen anytime soon? Considering in many places the plans don't appear to even include upgrading TVMs even where it would increase revenue.

Regarding whether waiting rooms or booking halls which are waiting rooms will stay open, didn't the government themselves admit some of them would become coffee shops?

Hardly fills us with confidence that waiting rooms or ticket halls which are waiting rooms are planned to stay open does it?

 

[northwichcat]

Some stations (Town Green I think is one) already have a solution to this - a button to press to request for it to be opened remotely, upon which you can be asked to show your ticket to a camera.

So if you have a smartcard you can just use the toilet anytime you want, whether you plan to travel or not.

 

[jagardner1984]

I would say it is somewhat saddening how prevalent the “everyone has the internet” view is here. They are, of course, mainly right.

But in the same way as most people can walk up stairs, we don’t build society to that standard, or an important minority would be excluded.

There are various innovations whereby, if the staff are all so under utilised, it would be possible to place a screen in a ticket office window, a ticket printer behind a slot, and a button for a real person to initiate a video call with another real person in another place to get the advice they need. It would not be possible to take cash in that way. But it would help many. That isn’t part of this conversation because that’s not what the aim is.

The motivation of this change is clear, and it has nothing to do with customer service.

In many ways I would have more respect for the TOCs and DFT if they came out clearly and announced mass redundancies of relevant staff. They know many will leave rather than hover on Platform 3 with a ticket machine at 6am on a Winter’s icy morning. They know it will be much easier to leave it unstaffed when illness / holidays come along. They know within a year or two roles will go unfilled, be recast as flexi across a station pool; all of the usual techniques. In a few years most of the bother of recruiting, training and managing staff is gone. The dishonesty of all of this is breathtaking; that should be no surprise from this leadership, but from the customer perspective, it is important to remember that however irrelevant their concerns may be to some on this forum, people who are digitally excluded (for a variety of reasons), May be a small minority but also may be some of the most vulnerable in society, and it is sad that some people cannot put their needs at the centre of this discussion.

 

[A0wen]

Surprised Birmingham new street is down for closure

I don't think logical deduction can be applied when it comes to determining which stations are planned to retain them!

To be fair - it's pretty easy to work through.

Avanti only operate in a limited number of generally large stations. They've decided the best model is to have staff near the gateline or TVMs with, presumably, some form of device to enable ticket sales. That's fine.

Whereas Northern or WMR who operate smaller stations which may not have as much space and equally may have security concerns where the handling of cash is concerned, have elected to keep a limited number of ticket offices open.

The mistake people are making, particularly on the Avanti ones, is saying 'oh it's a big station, surely it should keep its ticket office' - yet the reality is those ticket offices are probably used less than those at somewhere like Salford Crescent or Nuneaton.

 

[James H]

There are various innovations whereby, if the staff are all so under utilised, it would be possible to place a screen in a ticket office window, a ticket printer behind a slot, and a button for a real person to initiate a video call with another real person in another place to get the advice they need. It would not be possible to take cash in that way. But it would help many. That isn’t part of this conversation because that’s not what the aim is.

SWR have previously trialled this and have indicated in the material published yesterday that something along these lines is part of the plans for small stations.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So if you have a smartcard you can just use the toilet anytime you want, whether you plan to travel or not.

When I had a monthly Travelcard I absolutely did use it for that purpose, which got me some funny looks from staff.

 

[A0wen]

I would say it is somewhat saddening how prevalent the “everyone has the internet” view is here. They are, of course, mainly right.

But in the same way as most people can walk up stairs, we don’t build society to that standard, or an important minority would be excluded.

There are various innovations whereby, if the staff are all so under utilised, it would be possible to place a screen in a ticket office window, a ticket printer behind a slot, and a button for a real person to initiate a video call with another real person in another place to get the advice they need. It would not be possible to take cash in that way. But it would help many. That isn’t part of this conversation because that’s not what the aim is.

The motivation of this change is clear, and it has nothing to do with customer service.

In many ways I would have more respect for the TOCs and DFT if they came out clearly and announced mass redundancies of relevant staff. They know many will leave rather than hover on Platform 3 with a ticket machine at 6am on a Winter’s icy morning. They know it will be much easier to leave it unstaffed when illness / holidays come along. They know within a year or two roles will go unfilled, be recast as flexi across a station pool; all of the usual techniques. In a few years most of the bother of recruiting, training and managing staff is gone. The dishonesty of all of this is breathtaking; that should be no surprise from this leadership, but from the customer perspective, it is important to remember that however irrelevant their concerns may be to some on this forum, people who are digitally excluded (for a variety of reasons), May be a small minority but also may be some of the most vulnerable in society, and it is sad that some people cannot put their needs at the centre of this discussion.

If it's so regressive, so detrimental, can you offer a reason why Sweden, often cited as the kind of society many "social-democrats" in this country would like to aspire to, has done just this - closed all its ticket offices, gone completely down the electronic ticketing route.

Sweden's not a regressive or backward society, it has the same social challenges we have in this country.

 

[pt_mad]

Where booked assistance is currently offered by station staff (who is the ticket clerk) on a turn up and go basis, isn't this system going to mean they're far more likely to have to book their assistance in order to receive station assistance from the mobile staff?

The whole direction of travel up until now seemed to be moving towards a full turn up and go assistance offering.

I'm guessing this is how they will determine where the mobile staff need to go and where?

Some might say well ramps etc can be deployed by the train guard.

Fair enough but what about 'assistance with luggage' or 'transfer to another platform with luggage' or assistance from the entrance or exit for the visually impaired or those with other disabilities, or assistance from a taxi for a manual wheelchair user etc etc?

 

[Starmill]

In many ways I would have more respect for the TOCs and DFT if they came out clearly and announced mass redundancies of relevant staff.

I think that the number of compulsory redundancies would be mercifully quite small, because either the headcount reduction has already happened, or can be handled through job role change. I don't know if a further round of voluntary severance is something that's been funded or might be on the table.

If it's so regressive, so detrimental, can you offer a reason why Sweden, often cited as the kind of society many "social-democrats" in this country would like to aspire to, has done just this - closed all its ticket offices, gone completely down the electronic ticketing route.

Sweden's not a regressive or backward society, it has the same social challenges we have in this country.

Well Swedish railways haven't all but removed the station staff from stations where people who can't climb a step can only travel with staff assistance for a start.

 

[pt_mad]

Whereas Northern or WMR who operate smaller stations which may not have as much space and equally may have security concerns where the handling of cash is concerned, have elected to keep a limited number of ticket offices open.

Where does it say WMR are keeping ticket offices open?

Does it not point to some sort of passenger hubs where retail assistance will be available?

That doesn't say to me the ticket offices will stay open? Could that not mean platform staff help with TVMs where someone is struggling?

 

[A0wen]

Well Swedish railways haven't all but removed the station staff from stations where people who can't climb a step can only travel with staff assistance for a start.

And nor is that happening here. If somebody's in a ticket office they're not on the station platform providing assistance with boarding / alighting....... can't be in two places at once.

 

[Starmill]

They've decided the best model is to have staff near the gateline or TVMs with, presumably, some form of device to enable ticket sales. That's fine.

That's a good outcome for those stations concerned because they are generally stations which are already 24h or full time operating hours staffed, and which are unable to open without staff, so there's no risk of losing that completely. Secondary stations are quite different.

And nor is that happening here.

That's exactly what Northern are planning if you look at their consultation.

 

[pt_mad]

That's a good outcome for those stations concerned because they are generally stations which are already 24h or full time operating hours staffed, and which are unable to open without staff, so there's no risk of losing that completely. Secondary stations are quite different.


That's exactly what Northern are planning if you look at their consultation.

I must admit the likes of Penrith and Oxenholme do look to be retaining a good staffing level even though it says their ticket offices will close. Presumably staffed by dispatchers because the trains calling there are nearly all expresses.

I do feel however these stations are massively the exception here.

However I wouldn't agree there's no risk of losing it completely, as once schedule 17 no longer applies because the ticket office has closed, there's no official regulation of opening hours at all as is my understanding?

 

[A0wen]

Where does it say WMR are keeping ticket offices open?

Does it not point to some sort of passenger hubs where retail assistance will be available?

That doesn't say to me the ticket offices will stay open? Could that not mean platform staff help with TVMs where someone is struggling?

Sorry - correct, WMR are going for 'Passenger Hubs' which suggests some form of desk or area where there are staff on hand. So maybe not a ticket office as such.

 

[pt_mad]

Sorry - correct, WMR are going for 'Passenger Hubs' which suggests some form of desk or area where there are staff on hand. So maybe not a ticket office as such.

There's a pattern that it seems to be at more of the stations which are currently barriered or have platform staff.

Doesn't mean the staff helping will even be retail trained as far as I can interpret it, or necessarily based in the ticketing areas.

 

[yorkie]

Flip side is if I take ill at the last minute or the train is cancelled then I have a ticket I can't use.

If you buy online through the forum's ticketing site, then if you realise you can no longer travel and you're within 2 hours of the purchase time, you can get a full refund (if you choose TOD, then don't collect the ticket!)

...Doesn't mean the staff helping will even be retail trained as far as I can interpret it...

Ticket office staff are not consistently trained to an adequate standard though, so that won't be anything new!

If there are no retail facilities at the origin or the selected product isn't available, passengers can board without penalty.

I would say it is somewhat saddening how prevalent the “everyone has the internet” view is here. They are, of course, mainly right.

If there is a paritcular view you disageee with, please quote the post. Has anyone said what you've put in quote marks? We do ask that you use the quote button, so that there is no ambiguity.

I don't think anyone has actually said this, but feel free to quote whoever you think has, and we'll take it from there.

But in the same way as most people can walk up stairs, we don’t build society to that standard, or an important minority would be excluded.

Who is being excluded? Most stations do not have ticket issuing facilities; is anyone excluded on that basis currently? Are there proposals to change the rules regarding boarding at stations which lack facilities?

There are various innovations whereby, if the staff are all so under utilised, it would be possible to place a screen in a ticket office window, a ticket printer behind a slot, and a button for a real person to initiate a video call with another real person in another place to get the advice they need. It would not be possible to take cash in that way. But it would help many. That isn’t part of this conversation because that’s not what the aim is.

The motivation of this change is clear, and it has nothing to do with customer service.

Maybe but did you read about my experience recently of travelling with WMT? The staff did not enhance the customer service, were not visible and no tickets were checked. I want staffing to be the same, or higher, but the staff to be more visible. Keeping staff hidden doesn't really help.

In many ways I would have more respect for the TOCs and DFT if they came out clearly and announced mass redundancies of relevant staff.

Who wants mass redundancies? Far better to retain the staff but move them into more visible roles.

They know many will leave rather than hover on Platform 3 with a ticket machine at 6am on a Winter’s icy morning. They know it will be much easier to leave it unstaffed when illness / holidays come along. They know within a year or two roles will go unfilled, be recast as flexi across a station pool; all of the usual techniques. In a few years most of the bother of recruiting, training and managing staff is gone. The dishonesty of all of this is breathtaking; that should be no surprise from this leadership, but from the customer perspective, it is important to remember that however irrelevant their concerns may be to some on this forum, people who are digitally excluded (for a variety of reasons), May be a small minority but also may be some of the most vulnerable in society, and it is sad that some people cannot put their needs at the centre of this discussion.

Those who are "digitally excluded" and board at a station without ticket issuing facilities may do so, without penalty. That isn't going to change, is it?

 

[scrapy]

Glossop strikes me as a bit of an outlier on the Northern retained list. Any particular reason for that one remaining?

With the exception of Salford Central and Bradford Forster Sq which are clproposed to close, Northern seem to have picked all the barriered stations where they operate the ticket barriers.

 

[jagardner1984]

I think that the number of compulsory redundancies would be mercifully quite small, because either the headcount reduction has already happened, or can be handled through job role change. I don't know if a further round of voluntary severance is something that's been funded or might be on the table.


Well Swedish railways haven't all but removed the station staff from stations where people who can't climb a step can only travel with staff assistance for a start.

Redundancies maybe - but similar to if some of the office based staff were told their new job was to stand outside all winter cleaning bird muck off the windows, whilst they are not redundant, they may seek alternative employment fairly soon !

And joking aside, that is perhaps a point. Some roles require outdoor working in all weathers. I’ve got huge respect for those who do - for example P Way staff. It’s not something I could do - and whilst I do an active manual job - the issues are far more complex than “buy them a coat” as has been mooted at various points. It is extremely difficult to focus and work to your best after prolonged periods in the extreme cold.

I’d venture to suggest some of those in this thread who I’d politely refer to as “Friends of Grant Shapps” claiming this is all marvellous, probably have excellent office heating.

 

[Starmill]

I must admit the likes of Penrith and Oxenholme do look to be retaining a good staffing level even though it says their ticket offices will close. Presumably staffed by dispatchers because the trains calling there are nearly all expresses.

I do feel however these stations are massively the exception here.

However I wouldn't agree there's no risk of losing it completely, as once schedule 17 no longer applies because the ticket office has closed, there's no official regulation of opening hours at all as is my understanding?

There's probably at least a slim risk for those stations, only for very large or partially undergound stations where staff have to be in place for fire regulation and insurance reasons anyway.

 

[185]

I don't think logical deduction can be applied when it comes to determining which stations are planned to retain them!

You can. Anything involving FirstGroup t/a Avanti = 'whoooppeee shut them all more cash'

 

[urbophile]

Well Merseyrail stations changed in 2006 when they got the new ticket machines replacing APTIS.

What new ticket machines? Most Merseyrail stations don't have them (or the old ones). I still don't think you can collect pre-booked tickets from them.

 

[Starmill]

I still don't think you can collect pre-booked tickets from them.

This is still the case yes. The ticket offices can now dispense ToDs but not the ticket vending machines. Until recently there were still cash only ticket vending machines, I don't know if that's changed.

 

[bleeder4]

My local station Worcester Foregate Street is set to become one of these new WMR "retail and customer service hubs". In fact, as far as I can tell, it's the only station in the whole county which is set to do so. I'm not entirely sure what form these new hubs will take eg traditional counters as at present, staff on hand to help use ticket machine, staff with handheld terminals able to issue tickets themselves etc

 

[BrummieBobby]

Sorry - correct, WMR are going for 'Passenger Hubs' which suggests some form of desk or area where there are staff on hand. So maybe not a ticket office as such.

Just received an email from WMR, stating:

"All ticket offices in their current form would close over the next three years, but we would retain six hub stations across the network: Birmingham Snow Hill, Sutton Coldfield, University, Walsall, Wolverhampton and Worcester Foregate Street. These hubs would offer enhanced retail facilities and customer support. Cash will continue to be accepted across the rail network."

Which confirms that, ticket offices in all forms are to go. Also:

"Mobile teams would move between stations and be deployed to offer extra help where needed. Ticket vending machines would be upgraded to make sure customers can still buy the most popular tickets at stations and many staff will have hand-held devices. New customer help points would also be introduced at stations as part of the proposals."

I refer to my previous question, how many hours per week will these mobile teams spend at stations that currently have staff based at the station?

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is still the case yes. The ticket offices can now dispense ToDs but not the ticket vending machines. Until recently there were still cash only ticket vending machines, I don't know if that's changed.

The TVMs take card. Probably also cash, I don't know as I don't ever pay for train tickets by cash.

 

[Starmill]

The TVMs take card. Probably also cash, I don't know as I don't ever pay for train tickets by cash.

TVMs at unstaffed stations started taking cards many years ago, probably from new for those ones. The staffed stations were cash only at TVMs, which was always given as a key reason they couldn't offer ToD.

 

[A0wen]

You can. Anything involving FirstGroup t/a Avanti = 'whoooppeee shut them all more cash'

Nice bit of tinfoil hat conspiracy there - how does that work when you've got Northern, South Eastern and LNER all doing the same and they're under state control ?

 

[Starmill]

Are there proposals to change the rules regarding boarding at stations which lack facilities?

I'd be amazed if this weren't done secretly through the back door as part of this. We already know plenty of operators will try to charge Penalty Fares for this, and there's little anyone can do.

 

[NeilCr]

I hope this is allowed but I am going to copy a
post I put in an earlier thread (which was closed) as opposed to starting all over again!

I'd guess that those who will be more affected by this are thE ones who do not use the railways that much - as opposed to members of this forum. Those who don't have in depth ticketing knowledge, are hesitant of the internet etc etc. I do get the issues but just feel it's sad that this is happening to public transport

Anyway here is my previous post

"Deep breath!

It’s a complex subject. Complicated a bit by a number of posters with deep understanding and knowledge of the ticketing systems. And by lots of scenarios

If I may add another one. My partner and I use Ramsgate Station. Quite a fair sized one ( to me anyway) apart from big city stations. Two ticket office windows - one TVM. Four platforms reached by an underpass from the main ticket hall/waiting area/Pumpkin/whatever

I am fine. I use e-tickets and get on with it. OTOH my partner is partially sighted

She doesn’t use the train much by herself but a couple of weeks back she did have to go on a local journey. She was eternally grateful to the ticket clerk who helped her with the ticket, the right platform and train times. She certainly would struggle hugely with a TVM

We live separately - obviously, I could help with e tickets but that wouldn’t always be possible and would eat into her independence

As it is she knows she can go straight to the ticket office. If it came to her having to find someone in the station to ask that would be more difficult. She was cross with me recently as I bought some new trainers. Up till then she knew it was me because of the distinctive pattern on the old ones! So locating the right person on a biggish station might be interesting

In the great scheme of things it’s not major. She doesn’t travel much by herself but taking away the ticket office would probably stop her completely. And that’s sad - there will be others like her - who, however much we say do this or do that - would be the same

That doesn’t strike me to be what a railway should be about

So (finally) at Ramsgate I could see the argument for only having one ticket window with the other person redeployed - helping out with the TVM(s) for example. But not doing away with the whole thing

I know from my previous experience of queueing there that a) people do have complicated questions (not necessarily about ticketing) b) they like dealing with a human being and c) they like a focal point to go directly to

Sorry for the length of this"