Future of Ticket Office Consultations launched

[yorksrob]

At what point ? Zero ? - that would be crazy.

You're always going to have some who will refuse to change until the change is "forced" on them - which we saw with 405 line TV, Analogue UHF TV, paying by cheques in shops, to name but a few.

Then keep the currently busy ticket offices open. There are plenty of them about.

 

[Philip]

Well actually no there isn't - about 10% of sales are done at ticket offices now - that's on a downward trajectory. It's not suddenly going to jump back to up to 20%, 30%, 50%, no matter how much you state otherwise.

10% is still a very significant percentage when considering how many people use the railway each year - and more than enough to justify retaining ticket offices at the medium-sized and large stations which usually have ticket offices selling more than 200-300 tickets per day.

 

[sor]

Well actually no there isn't - about 10% of sales are done at ticket offices now - that's on a downward trajectory. It's not suddenly going to jump back to up to 20%, 30%, 50%, no matter how much you state otherwise.

It's why the closure of ticket offices on the Underground didn't have a negative impact. It's why Sweden has already gone down this route - and that's a modern, progressive society, but one, like ours, which has the disabled, the elderly and, no doubt, some refuseniks that "don't like using machines".

The overwhelming majority are OK with self-service of tickets, are already buying from TVMs or using the web / apps - and that will grow. One example, my 17 year old son bought a railcard a couple of months back - when I asked whether he wanted the physical card or an 'electronic' one stored on his phone, there was no question - to quote him "why do I want a plastic card ?"

You keep mentioning the underground and continually omit the fact that TfL made sure oyster/contactless worked flawlessly, that machines were plentiful and could do virtually everything needed, that ticket stops could do some of the things ticket offices used to do (such as add railcard discounts).

If RDG had done that beforehand then there'd be a lot fewer complaints.

As for the plastic railcard, he might change his tune when he's out of battery or screen gets smashed and gets into trouble, because to labour the point again, the rules and regs haven't been updated in line with these new products - you can't give a name/address and have the guard search for your railcard, you can't print out a paper version, you must have a working phone with app. But that's for another thread.

 

[scrapy]

Andy Burnham is now proposing that TFGM take over the running of all ticket offices in Greater Manchester (how this is paid for hasn't been confirmed). He has also confirmed there are no proposals to shut Altrincham or Horwich Parkway offices, which are currently run by TFGM.

So Glazebrook and Chassen Rd may well keep their ticket offices, whereas Eustons and Birmingham New Streets may close!

I'm all for keeping a lot more offices open, but there needs to be common sense. The 12 tickets per hour criteria seems reasonable, I doubt these two sell 12 tickets per day between them!

 

[northwichcat]

So I've responded to the Northern one opposing the changes and suggesting as a minimum the following is needed

1. Stations with over 250,000 journeys in 2021/2022 should, as a minimum, have a journey maker for the hours you are proposing for Buxton station i.e. 10 hours Mon-Sat, with a Sunday shift.
2. A convenience store willing to sell tickets must be found within 250m of a station, before a ticket office can be considered for closure.
3. The busiest stations that are currently unstaffed should get a journey maker for their busiest period.
4. All journey maker shifts must be based on passenger demand and not trying to get one person to cover as many stations as possible in a single shift.
5. Waiting rooms must be retained and upgraded as part of the change.
6. If vending machines are lost as part of ticket office closures, provision should be provided to offer drinks and snacks on board. This could include vending machines on board, as seen in Spain.
7. Help points must be made available on all platforms at stations losing their ticket offices.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

I was wondering about the 88% number, so did some digging and reaching out.

First of all, that figure is out of date - a good number of months.

Second, it appears to include ScotRail, Merseyrail and Transport for Wales ticket sales within it, as well as including sales records that are essentially back office accountancy/not actually a real paper ticket sale, albeit it is technically a booking office transaction, just of no consequence to a passenger.

The net effect of this is that smart ticketing in Scotland is only just starting to emerge, and adversely skews the 88%. If you strip ScotRail out, and Merseyrail, and look at more recent sales data, so essentially just for England and Wales excluding Merseyside, ok it fluctuates by period, but it's already in the low-mid 90s consistently at least recently.

RDG may have missed an opportunity to provide even more convincing statistics, although I suspect this data was prepared some time ago based on the last complete financial (rail) year.

By the end of just the next railway financial year, I'd be confident in betting the house on 95% or above utilising smart ticketing IN THE AFFECTED AREAS OF ENGLAND.

Incidentally one of the stubborn areas is One Day Travelcards, which should disappear soon anyway, making the number pretty impressive.

 

[thedbdiboy]

What you appear to be missing is that the government doesn't have any in-house railway management capability and hasn't done for many years now. Therefore this "profit" can't be kept in the public sector because the capacity to run the railway doesn't exist without contracting it out through the Operator of Last Resort. I'll let you into a little secret, the management fee on the National Rail Contracts might actually be ever so slightly cheaper than the same costs under OLR...

Transferring TransPennine Express from First Group's company to Trans Pennine Trains has increased costs, because handovers cost money and cause disruption to the business e.g. through front-line staff leaving without notice by rejecting the offer if TUPE. Unclear as yet but I'd expect FG's fees would have been cheaper than the OLR's also.

Directly Operated Railways kind of was, but that wasn't terribly efficient because they were only running one operator which still ended up incurring massive re-bid costs anyway.

Thanks for making this point. I don't think it is obvious to many just how limited DfT is compared to the various management functions and capabilities needed to run an industry such as rail. Indeed the whole approach to the ticket office closure plan highlights the missing layer that ideally would have some real ability to manage retail provision at whole-industry and sector level. Neither RDG not GBR are constituted to do this under the current structure. In fact one of the many frustrating issue is the common description of these as 'RDG plans' when in reality the first time anyone in RDG got to see the specific details of the proposals was on Wednesday morning with everyone else when the TOCs published their individual consultations. As a 'member-owned' organisation it is expected to speak for the industry but it is not actually in charge of any of the decisions.

 

[lyndhurst25]

This is all about de-staffing: reducing passengers into self loading freight. In my experience, de-staffed medium sized stations are generally rundown and unpleasant to use. A station is both the shop window for the railway and for the town in which it is situated. Contrast Settle with Gainsbourigh Lea Road, both stations with similar numbers of passengers. I know that Settle has an active “friends of” group, but even so they are worlds apart - help available, toilets, tourist information, safe car parking, heated waiting rooms, lack of litter and vandalism.

Has it been pointed out that some stations will still have staffed 1st class lounges, but no staffed ticket offices? Like I said: ordinary passengers seen as self loading freight.

 

[northwichcat]

By the end of just the next railway financial year, I'd be confident in betting the house on 95% or above utilising smart ticketing IN THE AFFECTED AREAS OF ENGLAND.

?

Smart ticketing is a system that electronically stores a travel ticket on a microchip, which is then usually embedded on a smartcard. An ITSO smartcard could allow passengers of public transport to seamlessly hop on and off buses, trams or trains without having to use traditional payment systems like cash or a purchasing a paper ticket.

What is smart ticketing? : ITSO

ITSO Ltd is a non-profit, membership organisation which aims to make travelling on public transport throughout the UK seamless and easier by enabling smart ticketing technology.

www.itso.org.uk

I used to use one of those for my season ticket but haven't held one of those since early 2020! I suggest smart ticketing will be almost non-exsistent in the north of England now remote and hybrid working are the norm.

Even if you've grouped e-tickets into your smart ticket claim, I'm not sure your claim is fact. When we were being told touching screens and handling cash could spread COVID, a lot of people opted for e-tickets. Now COVID concerns are decreasing, orange tickets are re-emerging again, especially for ticket types where people don't financially benefit from buying in advance. Now the government are threatening ticket office closures, I suspect more people will buy from the ticket office to show their support in retaining them.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

?

What is smart ticketing? : ITSO

ITSO Ltd is a non-profit, membership organisation which aims to make travelling on public transport throughout the UK seamless and easier by enabling smart ticketing technology.

www.itso.org.uk

I used to use one of those for my season ticket but haven't held one of those since early 2020! I suggest smart ticketing will be almost non-exsistent in the north of England now remote and hybrid working are the norm.

What are you confused about?

Scotland and parts of Liverpool/Merseyside are completely out of scope, as the ticket offices aren't affected by these proposals - yet the 88% is a national figure, but if you exclude the out of scope areas that aren't affected, the usage of smart ticketing is higher, and the usage of ticket offices even lower.

 

[NeilCr]

Some interesting comments in this article from some Tory MPs and the chair of the Transport Select Committee

Buckland - in particular - talking locally (he is MP for a Swindon constituency) and you might find other Tories with an election coming up may come under pressure from constituents

I must say 21 days is a very short consultation time

Rail ticket office closures in England will lead to job losses, minister says

During Commons debate, Huw Merriman says RMT union, in rejecting offer, should take some responsibility

www.theguardian.com

 

[northwichcat]

What are you confused about?

Scotland and parts of Liverpool/Merseyside are completely out of scope, as the ticket offices aren't affected by these proposals - yet the 88% is a national figure, but if you exclude the out of scope areas that aren't affected, the usage of smart ticketing is higher, and the usage of ticket offices even lower.

You really mean smart tickets i.e. a rechargeable card like an Oyster card but for National Rail? If you think 95% of passengers are using them, you haven't been on a British train for over 3 years!

And you ignored my point about COVID trends ending.

It's you that's confused, not me!

 

[yorksrob]

I was wondering about the 88% number, so did some digging and reaching out.

First of all, that figure is out of date - a good number of months.

Second, it appears to include ScotRail, Merseyrail and Transport for Wales ticket sales within it, as well as including sales records that are essentially back office accountancy/not actually a real paper ticket sale, albeit it is technically a booking office transaction, just of no consequence to a passenger.

The net effect of this is that smart ticketing in Scotland is only just starting to emerge, and adversely skews the 88%. If you strip ScotRail out, and Merseyrail, and look at more recent sales data, so essentially just for England and Wales excluding Merseyside, ok it fluctuates by period, but it's already in the low-mid 90s consistently at least recently.

RDG may have missed an opportunity to provide even more convincing statistics, although I suspect this data was prepared some time ago based on the last complete financial (rail) year.

By the end of just the next railway financial year, I'd be confident in betting the house on 95% or above utilising smart ticketing IN THE AFFECTED AREAS OF ENGLAND.

Incidentally one of the stubborn areas is One Day Travelcards, which should disappear soon anyway, making the number pretty impressive.

Yes, why not get rid of a popular product to help massage the figures in favour of ticket office closures.

 

[RailWonderer]

Some local ticket offices on GA were volunteer operated, if we get note local council subsidised and volunteer ran ticket offices we might still see some remain open. I’m sure there will be some agreement for some stations to go this way before anything radical happens.

They’re trying to do the same thing with pylons without consultation so I imagine they will try hard to force through but hopefully people power will win over as this is proving very controversial.

 

[AlterEgo]

And of course some stations, as mentioned on this thread have a much higher proportion of ticket sales (up to 30-40%) carried out at the ticket office.

So? That's a preference.

Is there any evidence that a ticket office closure has harmed revenue or profitability?

If they stopped e-tickets tomorrow I'd just get my tickets another way. So?

 

[yorksrob]

This is all about de-staffing: reducing passengers into self loading freight. In my experience, de-staffed medium sized stations are generally rundown and unpleasant to use. A station is both the shop window for the railway and for the town in which it is situated. Contrast Settle with Gainsbourigh Lea Road, both stations with similar numbers of passengers. I know that Settle has an active “friends of” group, but even so they are worlds apart - help available, toilets, tourist information, safe car parking, heated waiting rooms, lack of litter and vandalism.

Has it been pointed out that some stations will still have staffed 1st class lounges, but no staffed ticket offices? Like I said: ordinary passengers seen as self loading freight.

That's a very good comparison. When it comes to medium sized stations, there is a definite benefit to having a staff presence caring for the space. Settle versus Gainsborough Lea Road illustrate the point well.

So? That's a preference.

Is there any evidence that a ticket office closure has harmed revenue or profitability?

If they stopped e-tickets tomorrow I'd just get my tickets another way. So?

In a customer focused industry, if enough customers express a preference, that should be taken into account

 

[willgreen]

Not sure if anyone has raised this yet but just a thought. Around 50% of stations are unstaffed, right? If only 50% do have ticket offices then the figure of 12% is essentially wrong - at locations where ticket offices are available their use is instead roughly 24%. Which is obviously a significantly larger proportion (and will of course vary from location to location). But the 12% figure is in that sense a tad dishonest.

 

[AlterEgo]

In a customer focused industry, if enough customers express a preference, that should be taken into account

Sorry, no, it shouldn't, if those customers are preferring something which generates a substantial loss by its presence.

You wouldn't run a business that way, and we don't live in a high-taxation society where you can justify that sort of flagrancy.

Yes, the very big stations should keep their ticket offices (and expand what they can do!) but most ticket offices are not worth the expense with the value they give.

 

[ScottGallagher]

Some local ticket offices on GA were volunteer operated, if we get note local council subsidised and volunteer ran ticket offices we might still see some remain open. I’m sure there will be some agreement for some stations to go this way before anything radical happens.

They’re trying to do the same thing with pylons without consultation so I imagine they will try hard to force through but hopefully people power will win over as this is proving very controversial.

Millom on the cumbrian coast is like this as its incorporated into to the heritage centre on site ( didnt have one for donkeys years before this) so technically not on Northerns list as they don't run it but refer to the station online as having part time staff that's not to say it's not under threat.

 

[Richardr]

Not sure if anyone has raised this yet but just a thought. Around 50% of stations are unstaffed, right? If only 50% do have ticket offices then the figure of 12% is essentially wrong - at locations where ticket offices are available their use is instead roughly 24%. Which is obviously a significantly larger proportion (and will of course vary from location to location). But the 12% figure is in that sense a tad dishonest.

Hardly - to get to 24% you assume that the stations without ticket offices today would sell the same number of tickets as those with ticket offices. Do you not think that those without today are the lesser used stations?

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Yes, why not get rid of a popular product to help massage the figures in favour of ticket office closures.

The removal of the One Day Travelcard was long planned before any talk of ticket office closures came about - even more so with the expansion of contactless further afield. Once Railcard discounts are sorted out, it won't make any difference.

You really mean smart tickets i.e. a rechargeable card like an Oyster card but for National Rail? If you think 95% of passengers are using them, you haven't been on a British train for over 3 years!

And you ignored my point about COVID trends ending.

It's you that's confused, not me!

Smart tickets are basically any product that isn't an orange piece of card.

 

[peteb]

.

Indeed. Maybe it's me, but I can't see toilet provision surviving this sort of arrangement very long.

Yes at several stations I use regularly the staff at the ticket office hold the key to the toilet. So when they're dispensed with I guess the (almost brand new in the case of Kidderminster) toilets will be closed.

 

[A0wen]

Yes, why not get rid of a popular product to help massage the figures in favour of ticket office closures.

You can buy Travelcards on line and via TVMs - its potential withdrawl is more to do with Kahn grandstanding than anything else.

 

[peteb]

I see there's a petition being sent to Parliament opposing the closures which has 17000 signatures to date and rising by the minute.......they'll need 100000 signatures for the issue to be debated in parliament but stranger things have happened!

 

[northwichcat]

Not sure if anyone has raised this yet but just a thought. Around 50% of stations are unstaffed, right? If only 50% do have ticket offices then the figure of 12% is essentially wrong - at locations where ticket offices are available their use is instead roughly 24%. Which is obviously a significantly larger proportion (and will of course vary from location to location). But the 12% figure is in that sense a tad dishonest.

You don't have to buy a ticket at the station you're starting from. Prior to online ticketing becoming commonplace Cheshire stations used to get a lot of business people booking tickets for Crewe to London, even if they weren't on a direct line to Crewe.

 

[yorksrob]

Sorry, no, it shouldn't, if those customers are preferring something which generates a substantial loss by its presence.

You wouldn't run a business that way, and we don't live in a high-taxation society where you can justify that sort of flagrancy.

Yes, the very big stations should keep their ticket offices (and expand what they can do!) but most ticket offices are not worth the expense with the value they give.

I said "if enough" customers express a preference. There are clearly enough customers expressing a preference for ticket offices slated in this list.

Remember a few years ago when outsourcing contact centres abroad was all the rage for businesses ? A few years later, those same businesses were advertising the fact that they only used locally based call centres.

The customer preference comes first.

 

[A0wen]

You keep mentioning the underground and continually omit the fact that TfL made sure oyster/contactless worked flawlessly, that machines were plentiful and could do virtually everything needed, that ticket stops could do some of the things ticket offices used to do (such as add railcard discounts).

If RDG had done that beforehand then there'd be a lot fewer complaints.

As for the plastic railcard, he might change his tune when he's out of battery or screen gets smashed and gets into trouble, because to labour the point again, the rules and regs haven't been updated in line with these new products - you can't give a name/address and have the guard search for your railcard, you can't print out a paper version, you must have a working phone with app. But that's for another thread.

Virtually all tickets can be bought online or via an app and railcard discounts can be applied.

The only examples people have given on here that you can't are Priv (though it seems there is a website for those) and some Rovers and Rangers - which are a small proportion of tickets sold currently.

On the "what if your phone dies" argument - what if you lose your wallet ? What if you misplace your rail card ? What if you drop your paper tickets ? They're all "what if's", they're all edge case scenarios which aren't a reason not to make changes.

 

[yorkie]

People will go to the big staffed station to do their complicated purchases. The only reason for the respective proposals for the two are the differing opinions of the two operating companies.

As with air travel, people overwhelmingly book online these days.

Yes a small proportion of people do as you say, but this not only costs everyone involved unnecessary time, it also typically ends up costing potentially a lot more than what the forum's website would charge.

I also don't have many good experiences of ticket offices being any good at anything other than simple purchases.

How to simplify is one for another thread and has been done to death, but certainly simplification would contribute to making this more palatable.

I'm not prepared to pay the full Anytime rate just because some people can't understand a restriction, nor would the existence of a ticket office solve that conundrum; as you say it's been done to death but if anyone wants to discuss it further, please do create a new thread and we can continue the debate there!

I said "if enough" customers express a preference. There are clearly enough customers expressing a preference for ticket offices slated in this list.

Remember a few years ago when outsourcing contact centres abroad was all the rage for businesses ? A few years later, those same businesses were advertising the fact that they only used locally based call centres.

The customer preference comes first.

Customer preference is typically for online purchase of e-tickets these days.

You keep mentioning the underground and continually omit the fact that TfL made sure oyster/contactless worked flawlessly, that machines were plentiful and could do virtually everything needed, that ticket stops could do some of the things ticket offices used to do (such as add railcard discounts).

If RDG had done that beforehand then there'd be a lot fewer complaints.

I agree that RDG have shot themselves in the foot by not allowing certain products to be available online; however customers wanting such products can buy on board, rather than be forced to queue, where there is no facility to issue the fare.

As for the plastic railcard, he might change his tune when he's out of battery or screen gets smashed and gets into trouble, because to labour the point again, the rules and regs haven't been updated in line with these new products - you can't give a name/address and have the guard search for your railcard, you can't print out a paper version, you must have a working phone with app. But that's for another thread.

I agree that being dependent on apps is unwise, which is why e-tickets are so much better than m-tickets, but yes as you say it's for another thread really; it's been done to death elsewhere.

I see there's a petition being sent to Parliament opposing the closures which has 17000 signatures to date and rising by the minute.......

I wonder how many of those people actually realise that most stations already don't have a ticket office, and that passengers boarding at stations without a facility to buy their intended ticket can board the train without penalty?

If the majority of rail passengers want to use ticket offices, why are ticket offices I see so empty? York station ticket office is a tiny shadow of its former self. Overall it's a bonus for passengers as we now have the convenience of a Sainsbury's.

 

[northwichcat]

Smart tickets are basically any product that isn't an orange piece of card.

A rail industry body says otherwise. I posted a link indicating that but you replied implying I was an idiot for not believing what you said over the official source. I bet you also call your mobile phone a smart TV.

 

[yorksrob]

As with air travel, people overwhelmingly book online these days.

Yes a small proportion of people do as you say, but this not only costs everyone involved unnecessary time, it also typically ends up costing potentially a lot more than what the forum's website would charge.

I also don't have many good experiences of ticket offices being any good at anything other than simple purchases.

I'm not prepared to pay the full Anytime rate just because some people can't understand a restriction, nor would the existence of a ticket office solve that conundrum; as you say it's been done to death but if anyone wants to discuss it further, please do create a new thread and we can continue the debate there!


Customer preference is typically for online purchase of e-tickets these days.

"Some" customer preference is typically for online purchase. Clearly not all, otherwise there would be no demand for ticket offices.

I might be lucky, but I have generally had very positive experiences with booking hall staff and will make the case to see them retained where practicable, certainly in the larger stations.

There is also the case in smaller stations where the booking officer does the general wellbeing/caretaking of the station. In these cases, their withdrawal would only produce a deterioration in the travelling environment.