Future of Ticket Office Consultations launched

[Tazi Hupefi]

Thw

I buy my railcards when I first need to travel with them, so yes I do need the ability to buy for immediate travel.
You assume that I have a smartphone, but then go on to say that only one type of Railcard (which is not one of those that I buy, I have three) can be bought in that way in any case.
Never mentioned three year railcards.


Or is it another means of stopping those who are not entitled to them from buying them? Probably a potential for fraud.
Sometimes we don't decide where we are going until breakfast, then go straight out. Are we expected to hang on the phone to a telesales line for ages to buy such tickets (in advance), then queue again at the TVM when we get to the station?
Yes agree that there are improvements needed so that these can be all issued together, but if, like Rovers and Rangers,

then we stand little chance of improvements in this.

There's no issues around fraud etc with the CON34/50 discounts - you can just as easily apply a non existent Railcard or a child ticket etc - it was always restricted to force interaction with staff to ascertain if assistance was required.

ALL the National Railcards can be obtained digitally. My point on Railcards is that in the last few years, most are now digital anyway, with the 26-30 Railcard being exclusively digital.

Frankly, if you don't have a smartphone in 2023, it's tough at this point. It's a necessity. If you don't want one, absolutely no problem, but it is entirely unreasonable to expect people to adapt or adjust their processes for you, an astonishingly tiny minority.

As for telesales - you'd just be sent the ticket as a PDF e-ticket, so no, you wouldn't queue up. Also, as virtually nobody buys tickets by telephone anymore, it's extremely unlikely you'll be waiting long at all.

 

[yorksrob]

Thw

There's no issues around fraud etc with the CON34/50 discounts - you can just as easily apply a non existent Railcard or a child ticket etc - it was always restricted to force interaction with staff to ascertain if assistance was required.

ALL the National Railcards can be obtained digitally. My point on Railcards is that in the last few years, most are now digital anyway, with the 26-30 Railcard being exclusively digital.

Frankly, if you don't have a smartphone in 2023, it's tough at this point. It's a necessity. If you don't want one, absolutely no problem, but it is entirely unreasonable to expect people to adapt or adjust their processes for you, an astonishingly tiny minority.

As for telesales - you'd just be sent the ticket as a PDF e-ticket, so no, you wouldn't queue up. Also, as virtually nobody buys tickets by telephone anymore, it's extremely unlikely you'll be waiting long at all.

Claptrap.

People shouldn't be forced to take up smart phone technology to participate in day to day life.

 

[David Goddard]

Can be bought online and fulfilled on the various Railcard apps
Just buy it the day you want it, as above

The apps on the type of phone you assume I have

Can be requested online for some TOCs as well as by SMS or phone

Only seen this on LNER, then for their own services only, then you take pot luck what seats you get.
Spend £££ on an ALR to see the views then get auto-reserved next to the door pocket on an IET- what a lovely holiday!

Can be bought on board the train from the guard

Once you can blag your way through the gateline to board the train in the first place. If gateline gorilla says no then stuffed. Then, if there is a guard...

These are to be made available from TVMs; they are already in some areas

Yes I see that Northern are doing this. Need all ToCs to follow suit, and also for future dated, as quotes elsewhere suggested these were only for those starting that day

Can be added on at time of purchase from most Ticket selling websites

Granted, had not seen the option appear lately. Then there are the times you decide later, and need an add-on.

ALL the National Railcards can be obtained digitally. My point on Railcards is that in the last few years, most are now digital anyway, with the 26-30 Railcard being exclusively digital.

Frankly, if you don't have a smartphone in 2023, it's tough at this point. It's a necessity. If you don't want one, absolutely no problem, but it is entirely unreasonable to expect people to adapt or adjust their processes for you, an astonishingly tiny minority.

As for telesales - you'd just be sent the ticket as a PDF e-ticket, so no, you wouldn't queue up.

Not everyone can use one or afford one. Why should the ownership of one be mandated in order to use the most basic of methods of transport.

So if as you say,

virtually nobody buys tickets by telephone anymore,

then that puts them in the same league as ticket offices so we can expect an announcement on their closure too in the next few weeks.

 

[Goldfish62]

Frankly, if you don't have a smartphone in 2023, it's tough at this point. It's a necessity. If you don't want one, absolutely no problem, but it is entirely unreasonable to expect people to adapt or adjust their processes for you, an astonishingly tiny minority.

You're completely out of touch in respect of many elderly people. Perhaps when you get older there'll be technology you don't understand. You won't like it then if someone tells you to take it up or lose out.

 

[Iskra]

You're completely out of touch in respect of many elderly people. Perhaps when you get older there'll be technology you don't understand. You won't like it then if someone tells you to take it up or lose out.

I think the Lockdowns were a catalyst for older people engaging with technology. I know my older relatives adapted to using technology they never had before, so it's possibly not as big an issue as you are making out. Although, I do agree it is a choice and a simpler non-smartphone method should always remain (such as a TVM at a station)

 

[yorkie]

Claptrap.

People shouldn't be forced to take up smart phone technology to participate in day to day life.

Well if we're going to get into "claptrap", then if anything is that, it's the idea that ticket offices provide a good level of service!

Just yesterday an Avanti operated ticket office refused to sell a discounted ticket, on the basis that the passenger was not elgible for the discount, despite the fact the passenger was. There was an RMT poster sellotaped to the desk with "save our ticket offices" and other such nonsense.

Are these people for real? What planet are they on?

You're completely out of touch in respect of many elderly people. Perhaps when you get older there'll be technology you don't understand. You won't like it then if someone tells you to take it up or lose out.

No-one is required to use smartphones; if there are no issuing facilities at the origin they may buy on board without penalty.

This is a complete red herring which was debunked in multiple threads previously.

 

[Goldfish62]

I think the Lockdowns were a catalyst for older people engaging with technology. I know my older relatives adapted to using technology they never had before, so it's possibly not as big an issue as you are making out. Although, I do agree it is a choice and a simpler non-smartphone method should always remain (such as a TVM at a station)

I know plenty of older people who use the railways but won't go near a smartphone. I also know of others that with deepening old age setting in have the lost the ability to use one.

 

[NeilCr]

7% of the UK population do not own a smartphone

Ownership of smartphones in the UK 2022 | Statista

The share of adults who own a smartphone in the United Kingdom (UK) in 2008 was under 25 percent and is reaching total saturation point in 2021, by demographics.

www.statista.com

Of course how many of those are

internet savvy as well is a separate issue

ETA Apologies I didn’t get that “firewall” when I first looked at it

82% of those iced 55 owned one. Below that as stated it’s getting near saturation point

 

[Goldfish62]

No-one is required to use smartphones; if there are no issuing facilities at the origin they may buy on board without penalty.

And if the train is DOO or the guard doesn't have a ticket machine (as per the majority of guards on SWR)? Free trip and yet more lost revenue to the railways presumably.

 

[yorksrob]

Well if we're going to get into "claptrap", then if anything is that, it's the idea that ticket offices provide a good level of service!

Just yesterday an Avanti operated ticket office refused to sell a discounted ticket, on the basis that the passenger was not elgible for the discount, despite the fact the passenger was. There was an RMT poster sellotaped to the desk with "save our ticket offices" and other such nonsense.

Are these people for real? What planet are the on?


No-one is required to use smartphones; if there are no issuing facilities at the origin they may buy on board without penalty.

This is a complete red herring which was debunked in multiple threads previously.

Any customer service will require decent training.

I've always found Leed's ticket office to be very knowledgeable and helpful.

Others may fall short, but that would seem to be an argument for better training, rather than closing ticket offices !

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the current system, I certainly don't want to go down the Sweden route of no one to be found anywhere. We should discount that as a national policy.

 

[43066]

Any customer service will require decent training.

I've always found Leed's ticket office to be very knowledgeable and helpful.

Others may fall short, but that would seem to be an argument for better training, rather than closing ticket offices !

Indeed. It’s not as if the remaining staff are going to be any better trained than current ticket office staff.

What’ll likely happen is, with fewer staff to assist passengers, more ticketing irregularities will be committed, and more people will be clobbered by revenue.

 

[yorksrob]

Indeed. It’s not as if the remaining staff are going to be any better trained than current ticket office staff.

What’ll likely happen is, with fewer staff to assist passengers, more ticketing irregularities will be committed, and more people will be clobbered by revenue.

Exactly, there will be less guidance available for people.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Only seen this on LNER, then for their own services only, then you take pot luck what seats you get.

I've used the LNER one and it has a seat selector.

 

[AlterEgo]

So thinking about all of the products and services I have purchased from a station ticket office over the last decade, many of these are not available at a TVM, or in advance from a Train operator's website.

Some may be regarded as niche, but regardless of that we still need to have a means of purchasing them which is as convenient and cost neutral as it is at the moment.

Some of these are:
-Railcard for immediate travel
-Railcard to start on a specified date in the future (ie the date that I will next be travelling)
-All Line Rover starting in three days time
-Seat reservations (sometimes for specific seat preferences) on various services to be used with the above All Line Rover over the period of its validity
-Half price discounted tickets for my daughter who is a wheelchair user, and reservations for her on the trains we wish to use.
-Change of route excess as I need to take my journey via somewhere different
-Day Ranger for a part of the country not in the immediate area.
-Plus Bus add-ons to various tickets purchased.

All of those should be available online or via an app in a proper system with the exception of a change of route excess. Lobby for that instead.

Changes of route excess fares are available on board without penalty and there is no financial benefit to doing so in advance.

 

[WesternBiker]

Well if we're going to get into "claptrap", then if anything is that, it's the idea that ticket offices provide a good level of service!

Just yesterday an Avanti operated ticket office refused to sell a discounted ticket, on the basis that the passenger was not elgible for the discount, despite the fact the passenger was. There was an RMT poster sellotaped to the desk with "save our ticket offices" and other such nonsense.

Are these people for real? What planet are the on?

I've long since given up using Wimbledon or Farnborough ticket offices, having been sold the wrong tickets in the past (e.g not an "Evening Out" ticket when one was available and cheaper, and for the hovercraft rather than the ferry service to the Isle of Wight despite being very specific in asking for it).

Separately, I'd be interested to know what evidence there is from those countries that have already moved much further than this? (Albeit many have simpler fare structures.)

I have just returned from a week in Stockholm, where even Central Station does not have a ticket office - nor were there staff to help, except for the Arlanda (airport) Express. Interestingly, the Arlanda Express, SJ and the Stockholm SL services all have separate ticket vending machines, exclusive to their own services. The regional Mälertåg services don't even have TVMs. Instead - as with Oslo - a fair range of tickets could be purchased from tourist information, specific chains of convenience shops, and newsagents. In Oslo at least, the convenience store staff were incredibly helpful, knowledgeable and multilingual. I'm conscious other European countries have also gone down these routes.

 

[peteb]

I'm still concerned that less human interaction and surveillance will lead to a less safe travelling environment. I can't see the BTP being able to rush to the assistance of people panicked and using the help button at unstaffed stations any more than ambulance crews can get to everyone who dials 999. There aren't enough resources to cover what could be a vastly increased workload.

 

[Philip]

Well if we're going to get into "claptrap", then if anything is that, it's the idea that ticket offices provide a good level of service!

Just yesterday an Avanti operated ticket office refused to sell a discounted ticket, on the basis that the passenger was not elgible for the discount, despite the fact the passenger was. There was an RMT poster sellotaped to the desk with "save our ticket offices" and other such nonsense.

Are these people for real? What planet are the on?

Once again you focus entirely on the poor examples of booking office customer service and seem very keen to bring up as many examples as you can with your previous post quoting a multitude of previous negative scenarios. I've no doubt there are many threads on this forum from years past which praise good service by the ticket office staff, going above and beyond etc which you could have included just to provide a balance, as this is what this thread is about - debating the pros and cons of them, but unsurprisingly you've chosen not to include these.

 

[800001]

The apps on the type of phone you assume I have


Only seen this on LNER, then for their own services only, then you take pot luck what seats you get.
Spend £££ on an ALR to see the views then get auto-reserved next to the door pocket on an IET- what a lovely holiday!


Once you can blag your way through the gateline to board the train in the first place. If gateline gorilla says no then stuffed. Then, if there is a guard...


Yes I see that Northern are doing this. Need all ToCs to follow suit, and also for future dated, as quotes elsewhere suggested these were only for those starting that day


Granted, had not seen the option appear lately. Then there are the times you decide later, and need an add-on.




Not everyone can use one or afford one. Why should the ownership of one be mandated in order to use the most basic of methods of transport.

So if as you say,

then that puts them in the same league as ticket offices so we can expect an announcement on their closure too in the next few weeks.

When you reserve a seat using the LNER app, you can change the seat to where you want to sit!

 

[43066]

Well if we're going to get into "claptrap", then if anything is that, it's the idea that ticket offices provide a good level of service!

Just yesterday an Avanti operated ticket office refused to sell a discounted ticket, on the basis that the passenger was not elgible for the discount, despite the fact the passenger was. There was an RMT poster sellotaped to the desk with "save our ticket offices" and other such nonsense.

Are these people for real? What planet are the on?


No-one is required to use smartphones; if there are no issuing facilities at the origin they may buy on board without penalty.

This is a complete red herring which was debunked in multiple threads previously.

Keep in mind that what may happen in future is that disputes/misunderstandings of this nature will result in people travelling with invalid tickets (due to nobody to ask), and revenue inspectors deciding to simply penalty fare/report them.

Closing ticket offices and destaffing, in and of itself, won’t make any of the above any better, so I’m not sure why you’re so keen to see it happen. I agree with you that staff being more visible would be beneficial, but do you honestly believe that’s the real intention here, given the approach to other areas?

You’ve objected to the government’s proposed simplification of fares on the basis that you (rightly) believe it’s a pretext to raise prices - so surely it isn’t a great leap to see that these proposals are similarly being described as improving services, but are really just aimed at cutting costs.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Well actually no there isn't - about 10% of sales are done at ticket offices now - that's on a downward trajectory. It's not suddenly going to jump back to up to 20%, 30%, 50%, no matter how much you state otherwise.

If 10% of tickets are sold that way, it means that far more than 10% of users are using ticket offices. Obviously, lots of the most frequent users of the rail system will be ones making regular journeys, and/or who are familiar with the system, who don't use ticket offices. It was the same false argument used when stopping tickets sales on London buses years ago - the people who wanted or needed to get a ticket on the bus were occasional users / visitors / etc - a significant minority of users, even though (being only occasional users) they represented a much smaller percentage of journeys.

This equating of "only x% of occasions entail [whatever it is]" with "only x% of people do whatever it is by way of X" is a common arithmetical and logical fallacy - presumably many of those using this argument when closing down a service know it's false.

 

[weeklycommuter]

7% of the UK population do not own a smartphone

Ownership of smartphones in the UK 2022 | Statista

The share of adults who own a smartphone in the United Kingdom (UK) in 2008 was under 25 percent and is reaching total saturation point in 2021, by demographics.

www.statista.com

Of course how many of those are

internet savvy as well is a separate issue

ETA Apologies I didn’t get that “firewall” when I first looked at it

82% of those iced 55 owned one. Below that as stated it’s getting near saturation point

I have a smartphone as it was the only type of mobile phone I could get. I use it for phone calls and nothing else.
No-one is required to use a smartphone for rail tickets and I will never do so.
I always buy the rail ticket at the station, usually on a ticket vending machine, at the start of the journey.

 

[SteveM70]

Frankly, if you don't have a smartphone in 2023, it's tough at this point. It's a necessity. If you don't want one, absolutely no problem, but it is entirely unreasonable to expect people to adapt or adjust their processes for you, an astonishingly tiny minority

Well. What sanctimonious nonsense

My parents are in their early 80s, and are fit, well and active. They travel by train at least once a week.

Neither of them owns a smartphone (my sister - eventually - got them to buy a PAYG Nokia brick they could use if anything happened while they were out)

Why is it “a necessity” for them to have a smartphone?

 

[Bletchleyite]

All of those should be available online or via an app in a proper system with the exception of a change of route excess. Lobby for that instead.

Changes of route excess fares are available on board without penalty and there is no financial benefit to doing so in advance.

Though there would need to be a change in the rules to require gatelines to let you through with a ticket requiring a route or time excess, because while an excess is entitled in the sense that you can't be penalty fared or prosecuted for needing one, there isn't in my understanding a right to actually access the train past a gateline. There would need to be such a right.

Why is it “a necessity” for them to have a smartphone?

It isn't, and there is no proposal for it to be so.

If you don't have a smartphone you can use a TVM, or if you do have a computer and printer book and print an e-ticket.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Though there would need to be a change in the rules to require gatelines to let you through with a ticket requiring a route or time excess, because while an excess is entitled in the sense that you can't be penalty fared or prosecuted for needing one, there isn't in my understanding a right to actually access the train past a gateline. There would need to be such a right.



It isn't, and there is no proposal for it to be so.

If you don't have a smartphone you can use a TVM, or if you do have a computer and printer book and print an e-ticket.

Because they may be, even now, paying more for rail products (and other non rail) services by not having one.

 

[SteveM70]

It isn't, and there is no proposal for it to be so.

If you don't have a smartphone you can use a TVM, or if you do have a computer and printer book and print an e-ticket.

Thanks. I was aware of that and I suspect that whilst my dad will grumble a bit they’ll be fine using a TVM for the on the day tickets they buy, and they’ll get one of me or my sister to buy Advances online for them when they go gallivanting.

It was the attitude that I took exception to

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Thanks. I was aware of that and I suspect that whilst my dad will grumble a bit they’ll be fine using a TVM for the on the day tickets they buy, and they’ll get one of me or my sister to buy Advances online for them when they go gallivanting.

It was the attitude that I took exception to

If they're happy to pay more, that's up to them. If they want the best discounts, promotions and offers, they're not going to get them at a TVM or ticket office.

 

[Philip]

The idea that ticket offices are good for anything other than really simple sales is really not at all compatible with the experiences I've had, nor of many other people I know!

This is patronizing nonsense. Regardless of your own experiences, what you've said here is rather insulting towards many booking office staff I know - and probably many more!

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

This is patronizing nonsense. Regardless of your own experiences, what you've said here is rather insulting towards many booking office staff I know.

Most ticket office staff have become pretty incompetent over the years, even if they do have the best of intentions sometimes. The extreme inconsistencies between them make the concept of a booking office unreliable. You can get good service at 7am, but when the shift changes at 2pm, they're scratching their heads.

That is not necessarily their fault, the initial retail training, but more importantly, the ongoing briefings and refresher training has become reduced to, if you are lucky, an occasional email attachment, mixed in amongst other changes they'd never see or encounter. It is even rarer to see briefings from other TOCs than your own, especially those you wouldn't ordinarily encounter.

The other smaller issue is that ticket offices have sometimes been used to place staff who are restricted from other roles, be it medical or operational incident etc reasons - this is more pronounced at certain operators than others.

 

[AlterEgo]

This is patronizing nonsense. Regardless of your own experiences, what you've said here is rather insulting towards many booking office staff I know - and probably many more!

I’m sure it is insulting towards people who are committed and competent. However there are a lot of bad ticket offices out there.

 

[Mabs]

I work part time for TFL and part time for SWR. While working nights on the underground around 20% of customers either push through the barrier/double gate or their phone battery died. They have many excuses and expect you to let them through. If you don't, you might get their fist on your face.

I'm going to resign and go full time at TFL.