Future of Ticket Office Consultations launched

[weeklycommuter]

Nobody at all will be using ticket machines, whether TVM or at a ticket office window in a very short space of time. The stations will be boarded up eventually or repurposed as commercial/leisure/retail opportunities as appropriate, or just used as storage.

If we already have 90% utilisation of smart ticketing now in 2023 - and with further expansion of PAYG/Contactless etc in major population areas, within 12 months, and taking into account these closures which will nudge even more people to explore smart ticketing - it will be virtually universal - and we will all wonder what the fuss was about.

I will always be using a TVM at the station to buy my rail tickets. I will never have a ticket on a mobile phone.

 

[43066]

I work part time for TFL and part time for SWR. While working nights on the underground around 20% of customers either push through the barrier/double gate or their phone battery died. They have many excuses and expect you to let them through. If you don't, you might get their fist on your face.

I'm going to resign and go full time at TFL.

Wait and see if you can take redundancy!

 

[Mabs]

Most ticket office staff have become pretty incompetent over the years, even if they do have the best of intentions sometimes. The extreme inconsistencies between them make the concept of a booking office unreliable. You can get good service at 7am, but when the shift changes at 2pm, they're scratching their heads.

That is not necessarily their fault, the initial retail training, but more importantly, the ongoing briefings and refresher training has become reduced to, if you are lucky, an occasional email attachment, mixed in amongst other changes they'd never see or encounter. It is even rarer to see briefings from other TOCs than your own, especially those you wouldn't ordinarily encounter.

The other smaller issue is that ticket offices have sometimes been used to place staff who are restricted from other roles, be it medical or operational incident etc reasons - this is more pronounced at certain operators than others.

Not really mate. When it's quiet, it's when the cleaning is done, tvm roll changed, cash emptied, security checks done, broken items faulted, lost/found items logged, during winter the platforms are salted.
Stationeries and other stuff are ordered, checking emails and other jobs.

Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean they're sitting there scratching their heads.

 

[weeklycommuter]

Train fare reform urgently needed ahead of ticket office closures, says rail expert

Rail expert Mark Smith says fares reform and improved online ticketing should be ‘done first, not promised for later’

www.independent.co.uk

“The proposal is to place staff outside ticket offices. Ticket office hours are regulated in Schedule 17 of the Ticketing & Settlement Agreement, but I expect the hours when mobile staff will be provided won’t be listed.
“So I wouldn’t be surprised if staff disappeared soon afterwards.”
“The proposals appear to be driven by the government (DfT) as a cost-cutting exercise, rather than the train operators.

 

[yorksrob]

If they're happy to pay more, that's up to them. If they want the best discounts, promotions and offers, they're not going to get them at a TVM or ticket office.

The industry shouldn't be allowed to disadvantage passengers in that way.

 

[Mabs]

Wait and see if you can take redundancy!

That's why I will bring my winter holiday forward tomorrow and expect to resign around October. I did the most salt on the platforms. Let's see who does them now.

 

[Starmill]

We must be reading different proposals then - Non Retail Services Annex B clearly states the intention to retain gateline staff and/floor walkers for at least 18 hours a day

It specifically says staffing hours NA and floorwalking hours None. Perhaps you're looking at a different station?

 

[800001]

Well. What sanctimonious nonsense

My parents are in their early 80s, and are fit, well and active. They travel by train at least once a week.

Neither of them owns a smartphone (my sister - eventually - got them to buy a PAYG Nokia brick they could use if anything happened while they were out)

Why is it “a necessity” for them to have a smartphone?

100% agree with this.
My parents have a smart phone, but more so they can do video calls to family.
They don’t want to use it for internet etc, even explaining/showing how to get a supermarket loyalty card on phone is difficult.

They won’t use self scans in supermarket cos 9/10 they don’t manage to do it correctly and get stressed.

They like to speak to a person and interact and get a transaction completed in person.

This push to use machines will put them off using the train, as the guards on the trains round where I am, if you present a ‘permit to travel’, more or less tell you off for doing something wrong, when in fact the TVM doesn’t sell the ticket they require,

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

I will always be using a TVM at the station to buy my rail tickets. I will never have a ticket on a mobile phone.

What are you going to do when they (eventually) are removed? You do realise that will come in time, don't you? Once smart ticketing approaches 100%, why would you keep them?

Why are you happy to pay more to use a TVM?

Some very weird views on this forum. Change isn't just a one off event. The ticket offices aren't going to close and everything stays the same for another 20 years - the rail industry is about to see real change and transformation over the next couple of years, in all sorts of areas. The overwhelming majority of customers will be satisfied or unfussed about it.

 

[Lewisham2221]

It specifically says staffing hours NA and floorwalking hours None. Perhaps you're looking at a different station?

I don't know what you're looking at, but the but I'm looking at clearly says West Horndon and clearly says, in many instances, 0500 - 2359....

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Not really mate. When it's quiet, it's when the cleaning is done, tvm roll changed, cash emptied, security checks done, broken items faulted, lost/found items logged, during winter the platforms are salted.
Stationeries and other stuff are ordered, checking emails and other jobs.

Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean they're sitting there scratching their heads.

Perhaps you don't understand the meaning of scratching their heads....? It certainly has nothing to do with anything you've written.

I meant you can have a competent clerk at 7am who will issue the most complex ticket imaginable with a smile, yet when the afternoon shift comes in at 2pm, the same request leaves them scratching their heads because they don't know how to do it.

 

[Mabs]

Many of my customers prefer a physical ticket in case they need to provide it to claim the money back. They don't like online tickets they tell me. They'll have to get used to it now.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Many of my customers prefer a physical ticket incase they need to provide it to claim the money back. They don't like online tickets they tell me. They'll have to get used to it now.

Why can't they print their e-ticket? Surely that's even better for them as they can print as many copies as they like, easily store it for expenses, send to their friends etc....

Ticket offices also can no longer sell some of the cheapest products, like advance purchase on the day, so they may also be paying more than they ought to.

 

[Mabs]

Perhaps you don't understand the meaning of scratching their heads....? It certainly has nothing to do with anything you've written.

I meant you can have a competent clerk at 7am who will issue the most complex ticket imaginable with a smile, yet when the afternoon shift comes in at 2pm, the same request leaves them scratching their heads because they don't know how to do it.

Some staff work permanent lates. Their customers could be for leisure and are very good at what they do.

Staff who work earlies might be better at selling commuting tickets.

If you put a early staff on later on and a customer requests a special type of ticket for leisure with a seat reservation. There is a chance they'll struggle if its been a year since the last time they sold that ticket.

We are humans and we can forget. Are you MR PERFECT?

Why can't they print their e-ticket? Surely that's even better for them as they can print as many copies as they like, easily store it for expenses, send to their friends etc....

Ticket offices also can no longer sell some of the cheapest products, like advance purchase on the day, so they may also be paying more than they ought to.

Anyway I'm done with Railway Customer service. I have a train driver interview coming up. If I get it then all good. If not then I'm going full time at TFL. 40k for the same job and I've been told another 5k (pay rise + back dated pay) on its way.

45k for doing gateline. Can't go wrong.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Some staff work permanent lates. Their customers could be for leisure and are very good at what they do.

Staff who work earlies might be better at selling commuting tickets.

If you put a early staff on later on and a customer requests a special type of ticket for leisure with a seat reservation. There is a chance they'll struggle if its been a year since the last time they sold that ticket.

We are humans and we can forget. Are you MR PERFECT?


Anyway I'm done with Railway Customer service. I have a train driver interview coming up. If I get it then all good. If not then I'm going full time at TFL. 40k for the same job and I've been told another 5k (pay rise + back dated pay) on its way.

45k for doing gateline. Can't go wrong.

You have just accurately summed up the whole problem with ticket offices - the sheer inconsistency that makes buying a ticket ultimately a lottery, in your words, essentially depending on what shift that clerk prefers to work normally.

How is that sustainable or even acceptable? If I want expert advice and confidence I have the best ticket, I can't schedule my trip according to which clerk is on duty at that time!

I also think you're in for a shock when it comes to train driving for a TOC - if you take the attitude that customer service isn't a major part of a driver's role - you won't make it to the course, never mind the front of the train.

 

[Krokodil]

If it wasn't so horribly complex there'd be a case for PayPoint/PayZone doing it. That's open up every single corner shop (pretty much) as a booking office.

I can just imagine Arkwright fleecing someone for a 1st Class ALR when they only wanted a Day Return to the beach.

Apart from the fact only 10% of tickets are being bought at ticket offices now. The vast majority are being bought online, or from TVM's at the station. The comparison is absolutely relevant.

With your ability to misuse and misrepresent statistics, a career in politics beckons. Firstly it's 12%, not 10%. Secondly, that's a countrywide average and will include stations where there is no ticket office at all. At some stations the ticket office represents 45% of sales. Percentages are meaningless in any case, it's the gross number of tickets sold that actually matters when considering whether a booking office is worth keeping.

but again, just because a station sees a high volume of cash sales at the moment, certainly does not mean that the passengers there are resistant to using other methods, if necessary.

'Other methods' will involve just getting on a train and paying if the guard ever gets through. This will massively increase the workload of onboard staff so the scrotes will have an easier job hiding while the guard is sorting out the local WI outing to town. Always assuming that the guard's float hasn't been exhausted with no opportunity to dive into a booking office for some change.

The reality is any change like that will affect some more than others - in some ways web apps and TVM's can actually be a better experience for a foreign traveller as they tend to be multi-lingual, so they aren't having to struggle with the language barrier along with everything else.

So, you land at Manchester Airport (setting aside that it's not yet on the hit list), go to the TVM and search for tickets to Manchester. You get a choice of "TPE only", "Northern only", "TfW only" and a more expensive one that will either be labelled "Any permitted" or ".". How do you ensure that you get the best value ticket for your journey?

Never mind foreign tourists with no English, even the natives can't manage to buy tickets for the right operator without getting stung.

No - Avanti's website states "Under the plans, customers will still be able to access the same products and services as they do today either on our website, the Avanti West Coast app or at our stations where staff will be on hand to provide support for all ticket types." So there will be somebody on hand to assist with ticket purchases, it just means they won't be sat in a ticket office only selling tickets.

Do you always believe everything you read? Remember how turning MIA to self-dispatch was sold as allowing staff to be more available. These days they're nowhere to be seen on the concourse at the bottom of the escalators, so the poor guard who is trying to dispatch his train gets mobbed by people asking about when the next train to Kyle of Minogue will depart.

 

[Mabs]

The ticketing course is three months long. There is a lot to learn. If you want all machines. You've got it. Good luck with it now.

And lastly at my stations customers mostly chose a window over a machine if the ticket office was open. They even said they prefer to speak to someone.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

And this post is just as bad as insulting as the previous one I quoted. Have you visited nearly all ticket offices over the last few years? If not how are you in a position to claim "most ticket office staff have become pretty incompetent over the years"?

You have recently been patronizing towards people who don't or can't use smartphones and now you're being the same towards ticket office staff, I think you should take a step back before you upset more people with this nonsense.

I think you'll find these views are pretty normal and typical, and pretty accurate.

You are of course welcome to a different opinion, but I believe the elimination of ticket offices is a substantial positive for the industry, that will actually benefit almost all passengers in the long run, and the adoption of technology in the exceptionally small demographics that resist it should be gently encouraged and supported with that transition.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Anyway I'm done with Railway Customer service. I have a train driver interview coming up. If I get it then all good. If not then I'm going full time at TFL. 40k for the same job and I've been told another 5k (pay rise + back dated pay) on its way.

45k for doing gateline. Can't go wrong.

Someone who's "done with Railway Customer service" going full time on TfL gateline. God help us.

 

[AlterEgo]

45k for doing gateline. Can't go wrong.

Another role ripe for change I’m afraid. be careful what you wish for, and better to stick around for voluntary redundancy before jumping from the frying pan into the fire.

 

[LowLevel]

The ticketing course is three months long. There is a lot to learn. If you want all machines. You've got it. Good luck with it now.

Can I suggest you take a moment to chill and walk away from the keyboard for a bit? It hasn't been a great week for those of us on the railway and you seem to be stuck in a rather upset spiral here. Going round in circles on here with people less emotionally invested won't make it any better.

 

[tomuk]

I can just imagine Arkwright fleecing someone for a 1st Class ALR when they only wanted a Day Return to the beach.

How do you find it in South Wales with the various pPayzone Arkwrights selling tickets?

List of tickets and Payzone stores is here

Payzone | Transport for Wales

Transport for Wales | Buy Cheap Train Tickets and Check Train Times

tfw.wales

 

[geoffk]

You get a choice of "TPE only", "Northern only", "TfW only" and a more expensive one that will either be labelled "Any permitted" or ".

I hope these will disappear when (if) GBR comes in. There's no benefit to any TOC in doing an ORCATS raid if the Government is taking the revenue risk. It all goes into one pot.

 

[Krokodil]

That, outside of protected characteristics, is how business works

Call me old-fashioned but I still regard the railway as a public service, not a business.

How do you find it in South Wales with the various pPayzone Arkwrights selling tickets?

How would I know? I seldom go to South Wales. Much as it may surprise a few in Cardiff Bay, the world does not end at the Heads of the Valleys Road. In any case, when I did last venture up the Taff, most people paid the guard.

I hope these will disappear when (if) GBR comes in. There's no benefit to any TOC in doing an ORCATS raid if the Government is taking the revenue risk. It all goes into one pot.

Well sort out the ticketing system first and then come back and suggest destaffing. Otherwise it's a bit like putting the cart before the horse.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Call me old-fashioned but I still regard the railway as a public service, not a business.

It's both. Public services should be run with business-like efficiency, otherwise money is wasted - my money as a taxpayer.

 

[Starmill]

I don't know what you're looking at, but the but I'm looking at clearly says West Horndon and clearly says, in many instances, 0500 - 2359....

I can't read what you've attached screenshots of there because it's very small and sideways. But if you open the consultation document it clearly says that West Horndon has no floorwalking hours and station staffed hours 'not applicable'.

I hope these will disappear when (if) GBR comes in.

TfW are hardly going to agree to change their policy because of GBR...

 

[Lewisham2221]

I can't read what you've attached screenshots of there because it's very small and sideways. But if you open the consultation document it clearly says that West Horndon has no floorwalking hours and station staffed hours 'not applicable'.

We clearly  are looking at different documents.

If you open the document I linked to initially (or zoom in on the screenshot) it clearly shows staffing presence in between the hours of 0500 and 2359 (actually I think it might even be 0145, but it's set out awkwardly).

AIUI the station has a gateline, which has to be manned at all times, or else the gates have to be left open. So unless they plan to abolish the gateline, I expect this and any other barriered station to retain a staffing presence, albeit maybe not a ticketing "expert".

 

[Urobach]

Somewhat surprised to hear there are that many stories of incompetent ticket offices regarding sales.

I can't say I've ever had a problem at any ticket office I've used throughout the UK over the past 30 years producing a wrong or invalid ticket. Am I just lucky?

 

[Starmill]

I think you'll find these views are pretty normal and typical, and pretty accurate.

You are of course welcome to a different opinion, but I believe the elimination of ticket offices is a substantial positive for the industry, that will actually benefit almost all passengers in the long run, and the adoption of technology in the exceptionally small demographics that resist it should be gently encouraged and supported with that transition.

For closing the ticket office itself, sure. For cutting staffing hours substantially or all the way to zero, as is proposed at many secondary stations, absolutely not. Nothing to do with technology.

We clearly  are looking at different documents.

I'm reading page five of the document linked to in post #1.

If you open the document I linked to initially (or zoom in on the screenshot) it clearly shows staffing presence in between the hours of 0500 and 2359 (actually I think it might even be 0145, but it's set out awkwardly).

I'd say that's wrong then because the consultation document is the one people will actually read.

AIUI the station has a gateline, which has to be manned at all times, or else the gates have to be left open. So unless they plan to abolish the gateline

There are stations which have gatelines that are not in use because they're not staffed, some have been removed.

I expect this and any other barriered station to retain a staffing presence, albeit maybe not a ticketing "expert".

Reading the consultation report it's not referring to expert time though, it's referring to staffed hours and expert time as being unavailable. Why would you expect a station to be staffed just because it previously had a gateline? Much bigger changes than that are taking place.

Somewhat surprised to hear there are that many stories of incompetent ticket offices regarding sales.

I can't say I've ever had a problem at any ticket office I've used throughout the UK over the past 30 years producing a wrong or invalid ticket. Am I just lucky?

Depends what you've been asking for I guess.

Let's try an easy one that I know comes up frequently, and which I personally witnessed a customer asking a member of station staff recently.

Customer A holds an Off Peak Day Single which is restricted with ND (https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ticket-types/validity/nd/). The price is £15. They arrive at the station to travel on the 0958 service, but see that the 0928 is running 10 minutes late when they get to the platform. Is their ticket valid for travel on this train?

Customer B then turns up holding the same ticket but this time with a 16-25 railcard. The price is £9.90. They arrive at the station to travel on the 1028, but see that the 0958 is running 10 minutes late when they get to the platform. Is their ticket valid for travel on this train?

Sadly the customer whom I recently overheard asking the second question was given incorrect advice, to their cost.

 

[ninja-lewis]

The industry shouldn't be allowed to disadvantage passengers in that way.

At what point is it no longer acceptable to disadvantage the majority of passengers and the taxpayer (through the transfer of resources to fund services used by a minority of passengers)?

If we invented the railway today, would we have paper tickets or ticket offices or even TVMs?