Future of TransPennine Express?

[TheGuy77]

From the TransPennine Route Upgrade to scrapping the Nova 3 fleet already, there's a lot going on at TransPennine Express. So I thought it would be a good time to discuss what might happen? Any new services? New trains?

There has already been plans to restore 4 fast trains per hour from Manchester to Leeds, but what else could there be? Extra additions to the South Route? Replacements to the 185s?

What are your thoughts?

 

[A S Leib]

I'd like to see at least a bihourly Newcastle – Glasgow service (if Lumo, CrossCountry or even ScotRail don't) and more Liverpool – Scotland services (but I think hourly's unnecessary, at least right now – haven't we recently had a thread on this?). 2 tph for York – Scarborough and Doncaster – Grimsby as well, if Northern don't provide any supplements to TPE. Getting direct Newcastle – Manchester Piccadilly trains back would be nice, but not a priority.

 

[TheGuy77]

I was thinking 1tp2h from Manchester Piccadilly to Edinburgh via Sheffield and Doncaster. Would be a much cheaper option than CrossCountry.

 

[A S Leib]

I was thinking 1tp2h from Manchester Piccadilly to Edinburgh via Sheffield and Doncaster. Would be a much cheaper option than CrossCountry.

Via Preston is 223 miles, via Huddersfield is 272 miles and via Doncaster is 298 miles, so not exactly a short journey (and how reliably would that run?).

 

[dk1]

I was thinking 1tp2h from Manchester Piccadilly to Edinburgh via Sheffield and Doncaster. Would be a much cheaper option than CrossCountry.

It very much doubt a path could be found between York & Newcastle for such a service.

 

[JonathanH]

Would be a much cheaper option than CrossCountry.

Why? Only to the extent that there could be better availability of advance fares. They wouldn't compete with each other.

 

[Donny Dave]

2 tph for Doncaster – Grimsby as well, if Northern don't provide any supplements to TPE.

Not sure that 2tph is needed between Doncaster and Grimsby. However, if Northern were to reinstate an hourly service to Scunthorpe, this could be extended to Grimsby, and take the Habrough station stop of the TPE service.

The main thing about the South route is that all services need doubling up, and not abandon everything East of Sheffield if there is any problems.

 

[Halifaxlad]

I'd like to see at least a bihourly Newcastle – Glasgow service

I wonder if such a service could run via Hexham, Haltwhistle and Carlisle ?

 

[A S Leib]

I wonder if such a service could run via Hexham, Haltwhistle and Carlisle ?

It looks like there's still two Northern trains in some hours following LNER services in the upcoming diversions, so I don't think pathing there would be a massive issue.

There's not currently tonnes of demand from Hexham or Haltwhistle to Glasgow, at least going by the ORR statistics, but that could change with a direct service, and if not, there is demand from Newcastle, and it might free up some space on the Northern stoppers for the smaller stations and MetroCentre.

I'd guess that the case for electrifying the Tyne Valley would be stronger as well then, as it doesn't make sense to use diesel trains for Carlisle – Lockerbie – Glasgow.

 

[Manutd1999]

They seem to have done a decent job of stabilizing the service since the contract was taken back. For the next couple of years I wouldn't do anything dramatic, just gradually restore the precious timetable but with the resources to deliver it.

Completion of the Huddersfield-Dewsbury 4-tracking should enable a recast to give a clockface service every 15 mins between Manchester and Leeds. Depending what happens with the ECML, that could also include a half-hourly service to Newcastle and extensions to Edinburgh.

Longer-term, I think York to North Wales via Chester would make a lot of sense, replacing the existing TfW service to Manchester, but it would be complicated to agree/staff. Maybe under GBR it could be possible.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I was thinking 1tp2h from Manchester Piccadilly to Edinburgh via Sheffield and Doncaster. Would be a much cheaper option than CrossCountry.

GBR will sort the national fares out and maybe abolish separate TOCs as we currently know them.
Inter-TOC competition will be dead soon (except for open access).
It's what "nationalisation" means.

 

[Snow1964]

The latest version of DfT spreadsheet (updated 14th August 2024) has following (and from memory another document lists them as about 205m long)

line 82 :
Rail Services Group Transpennine Trains Ltd
Procurement a single multi-mode fleet of 29 units.
Procurement of new rolling stock to support TRU and the longer-term decarbonisation of the network..Fleet size of 29units, with an option to procure up to 55 units in total. The additional units reflect an ask from DfT Passenger Services, a separate business case will be undertaken should there be a requirement to procure additional units above the 29.
Commercial Strategy New Requirement
Estimated Procurement Start Date 01/12/2023
Estimated Contract Commencement Date 30/01/2026
Estimated Contract Length 144 months
Estimated Contract Value 600,000,000
Planned Procurement Sourcing Route (level of competition) Negotiated procedure

Future commercial contracts for DfT and partners

Listing of upcoming Department for Transport (DfT) and associated bodies commercial contracts – known as the commercial pipeline – for which bidders may apply.

www.gov.uk

Sorry, I have no idea what routes the possible extra 25 units requested by DfT Passenger Services are for

 

[A S Leib]

Longer-term, I think York to North Wales via Chester would make a lot of sense, replacing the existing TfW service to Manchester, but it would be complicated to agree/staff. Maybe under GBR it could be possible.

I wouldn't say it makes tonnes of sense that way to me, but it also seems odd for TfW to be running north Wales – Manchester services and not Cardiff – Bristol (even though Plymouth / Penzance and Portsmouth are a lot further into England than Liverpool or Manchester).

 

[Harpo]

GBR will sort the national fares out and maybe abolish separate TOCs as we currently know them.
Inter-TOC competition will be dead soon (except for open access).
It's what "nationalisation" means.

Nationalisation only means state ownership. Everything else is a variable. Think 'no tax increases'.

 

[JonathanH]

Nationalisation only means state ownership. Everything else is a variable. Think 'no tax increases'.

Fares reform is a clear priority alongside nationalisation. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence for this.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Fares reform is a clear priority alongside nationalisation. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence for this.

Fare increases and reduced flexibility you mean

 

[Energy]

The latest version of DfT spreadsheet (updated 14th August 2024) has following (and from memory another document lists them as about 205m long)

line 82 :
Rail Services Group Transpennine Trains Ltd
Procurement a single multi-mode fleet of 29 units.
Procurement of new rolling stock to support TRU and the longer-term decarbonisation of the network..Fleet size of 29units, with an option to procure up to 55 units in total. The additional units reflect an ask from DfT Passenger Services, a separate business case will be undertaken should there be a requirement to procure additional units above the 29.
Commercial Strategy New Requirement
Estimated Procurement Start Date 01/12/2023
Estimated Contract Commencement Date 30/01/2026
Estimated Contract Length 144 months
Estimated Contract Value 600,000,000
Planned Procurement Sourcing Route (level of competition) Negotiated procedure

Future commercial contracts for DfT and partners

Listing of upcoming Department for Transport (DfT) and associated bodies commercial contracts – known as the commercial pipeline – for which bidders may apply.

www.gov.uk

Sorry, I have no idea what routes the possible extra 25 units requested by DfT Passenger Services are for

The DfTs rolling stock procurement is a bit of a mess. LNER and TPE are both procuring pretty similar multimodal intercity units.

They’d be better of doing a combined order for both, or doing a bigger order for TPE and sending the TPE 802s to LNER.

 

[wilbers]

There is an obvious gap in the Manchester Airport->Scotland trains at 1904 (weekdays), as other than that they are hourly (some to Edinburgh, some to Glasgow, and the last train of the day on the route just goes to Lancaster).

1804 on a Saturday seems unusually early for the last train (and I am aware there are later Northern connecting with the next 2 Avanti's at Preston so the actual last train is 1950).

I do note the one train a day which only went as far as Carlisle has been reinstated to the full route (Glasgow?) on the June timetable - maybe that was a staff shortage issue which is now resolved.

 

[swt_passenger]

From the TransPennine Route Upgrade to scrapping the Nova 3 fleet already, there's a lot going on at TransPennine Express. So I thought it would be a good time to discuss what might happen? Any new services? New trains?

There has already been plans to restore 4 fast trains per hour from Manchester to Leeds, but what else could there be? Extra additions to the South Route? Replacements to the 185s?

What are your thoughts?

I doubt much has changed since you asked basically the same question in April, only 4 months ago:

What TPE could look like by 2050

For Ideas, Suggestions and Speculations of what TransPennine express could look like in the future with new services, stations and trains.

www.railforums.co.uk

There have been so many threads covering this subject before it gets rather repetitive...

 

[A S Leib]

There have been so many threads covering this subject before it gets rather repetitive...

CrossCountry as well.

 

[swt_passenger]

CrossCountry as well.

TPE could run hourly services to Brighton via Brum, Reading and Guildford.
Solves about three “whack a mole” issues at once, what can we do with all this unused TPE rolling stock, how can we increase crosscountry capacity, and how can we reconnect Brighton.

 

[TheGuy77]

I doubt much has changed since you asked basically the same question in April, only 4 months ago:

What TPE could look like by 2050

For Ideas, Suggestions and Speculations of what TransPennine express could look like in the future with new services, stations and trains.

www.railforums.co.uk

There have been so many threads covering this subject before it gets rather repetitive...

Forgot about that, probably need to merge these two together.

 

[FlyingPotato]

Assuming HS2 doesn't have an eastern leg

Could TPE take on some of the HS2 stock for the Man to Scotland services. If you did, you could have shared drivers based at Preston / Manchester for some routes

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Nationalisation only means state ownership. Everything else is a variable. Think 'no tax increases'.

Labour thinks there is a lot of cost in maintaining 20-odd independent passenger TOCs.
Keeping the status quo organisationally doesn't seem an option, though I agree DfT has not said how GBR will be managed (and including NR).

 

[Halifaxlad]

Assuming HS2 doesn't have an eastern leg

Could TPE take on some of the HS2 stock for the Man to Scotland services. If you did, you could have shared drivers based at Preston / Manchester for some routes

TPE would be better taking LNER stock!

 

[dk1]

TPE would be better taking LNER stock!

Only LNER stock up for grabs is the 91/DVT fleet but not until the 897s arrive and are in traffic.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Birmingham to Leeds via Crewe or Stoke could be interesting

 

[danbarjon]

Only LNER stock up for grabs is the 91/DVT fleet but not until the 897s arrive and are in traffic.

Is that the official numbering of the new LNER trains?

 

[dk1]

Is that the official numbering of the new LNER trains?

According to Wikipedia.

 

[danbarjon]

According to Wikipedia.

Ah, new info to me I appreciate the heads up.