Good news for Cornish services, but cringey PR

[Baxenden Bank]

Surely, in the world of little words for big people wot never paid no attention to nuffink at school, sidings ought to be 'parking spaces for trains'. A passing loop / crossing loop on a single line would be a lay-by or passing place - like a single track road with passing places.

 

[30907]

Historically, How would train lengths compare between the 40's or 50's and now?

Recent thread here. Remember that a 10x26m IET is the same length as 13 Mk1s or 14x57ft.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/historic-passenger-train-lengths-in-the-uk.229122/

 

[TUC]

To be fair, most of the travelling public don't really know what they are other than they fail occasionally!

Anyone who grew up on Thomas knows what sidings are

 

[WesternBiker]

For many of us, knowledge of railway vocabulary came from having model railways (or at least coveting them by reading the catalogue). Or by reading the Rev Awdry books.

As has been pointed out further up the thread, however, there are many fewer sidings across the network these days, so less need to use that vocabulary in the general population.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

For many of us, knowledge of railway vocabulary came from having model railways (or at least coveting them by reading the catalogue). Or by reading the Rev Awdry books.

As has been pointed out further up the thread, however, there are many fewer sidings across the network these days, so less need to use that vocabulary in the general population.

In that case, why is Thomas or Ivor not on the national curriculum!

 

[WesternBiker]

In that case, why is Thomas or Ivor not on the national curriculum!

If it were up to me, they would be!

 

[Requeststop]

What's the point? There is only one station in Cornwall that can take a 9 car set and that's at Penzance, Platform's 1 and 2. The infrastructure of all the other stations is such that they cannot extend the platforms. even at Truro the Penzance bound trains stick out over the level crossing holding up the traffic for even longer than is necessary.

 

[irish_rail]

What's the point? There is only one station in Cornwall that can take a 9 car set and that's at Penzance, Platform's 1 and 2. The infrastructure of all the other stations is such that they cannot extend the platforms. even at Truro the Penzance bound trains stick out over the level crossing holding up the traffic for even longer than is necessary.

The point is that the trains from London are often busy enough to need to be formed of more than 5 carriages through Cornwall, and experience of splitting 10 car trains at Plymouth has proved unsatisfactory, with passengers journeys being delayed and disrupted.

 

[Requeststop]

You're telling me. I have mentioned Station lengths and splitting of trains at Plymouth in other threads on Cornwall, the New Hitachi trains, Pullman services etc. The point is that the old HST's were perfectly capable of stopping adequately at all but a small handful of stations. Now passengers have the inconvenience of having to walk forward to other carriages with their luggage to disembark from the train at all stations except for two platforms at Penzance. What's more inconvenient? A slightly longer journey ot struggling through the train with luggage to get off at the platform? I think the problem is that GWR didn't rally think through the size of trains and size of Cornish platforms when they decided on the format of trains to and from Cornwall.

Actually you've got me winging like a northerner and I couldn't come from any place further south in the nation.

 

[WesternBiker]

A slightly longer journey ot struggling through the train with luggage to get off at the platform?

It’s not perfect, but surely that’s manageable with good onboard announcements (and preferably platform announcements before one gets on).

The need for longer sets in part was to meet demand on busy services to Bristol and South Wales, where HSTs were regularly standing room only on Friday evenings. (And having stood many a time from Paddington to Bristol Parkway on my way to South Wales, that’s no fun either.)

 

[py_megapixel]

Surely the solution is to get whatever problems are preventing them from splitting 10-car Hitachi sets at Plymouth sorted out.

 

[irish_rail]

Surely the solution is to get whatever problems are preventing them from splitting 10-car Hitachi sets at Plymouth sorted out.

Its money though. The 10s which split at Plymouth are extremely costly in terms of extra staff needed to shuttle the 5 car sets about to and from the depot and around the station, not to mention needing to double crew both sets between London and Plymouth. It will only be sorted out when the trains run without drivers ie no time soon! The Wofe route is now GWRs busiest route since commuting died a death so there is less appetite for splitting trains at Plymouth on what are very well used services.

It’s not perfect, but surely that’s manageable with good onboard announcements (and preferably platform announcements before one gets on).

The need for longer sets in part was to meet demand on busy services to Bristol and South Wales, where HSTs were regularly standing room only on Friday evenings. (And having stood many a time from Paddington to Bristol Parkway on my way to South Wales, that’s no fun either.)

The problem with announcements is there are still way too many people who either zone out from them due to the huge number, and also those that simply don't hear them due to headphones. Every single time a train splits at Plymouth there are people who are moved out of the rear set and have to walk up to the front set. Sometimes it is families with lots of luggage, or elderly people. It is completely unsatisfactory on GWRs most "intercity" route.

 

[Horizon22]

Its money though. The 10s which split at Plymouth are extremely costly in terms of extra staff needed to shuttle the 5 car sets about to and from the depot and around the station, not to mention needing to double crew both sets between London and Plymouth. It will only be sorted out when the trains run without drivers ie no time soon! The Wofe route is now GWRs busiest route since commuting died a death so there is less appetite for splitting trains at Plymouth on what are very well used services.

Strictly speaking it is not always the busiest route, but I would say it is the most "prestigious" route that should be protected. In theory, outside of the peak months, 10-cars and splitting at Plymouth is a perfectly reasonable solution, if the split goes smoothly and there generally seem to be a lot fewer issues now, partly because drivers are being re-trained on attaching procedures for 80x having not done it for months/years.

From about April - October though (or whatever the revenue figures show is the best tipping point), then it should be 9s all the way.

 

[lancastrian]

Surely the solution is to get whatever problems are preventing them from splitting 10-car Hitachi sets at Plymouth sorted out.

Surely the real solution is to build a few more carriages and extend the sets to 6/7/8 car sets. This was done with the Penderlino's why not with these sets?

 

[Brissle Girl]

Surely the real solution is to build a few more carriages and extend the sets to 6/7/8 car sets. This was done with the Penderlino's why not with these sets?

You will then lose the ability to double up as the sets will be too long for many main stations where selective door opening would not be acceptable. And that would remove a lot of flexibility. You'd probably have difficulty in depots too, as I would imagine many sidings will just allow 2x5 car sets.

The 390s (only some) were extended from 9 car to 11 car - took ages and cost a fortune I seem to recall.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

How long were trains in the good/bad old days and how did we ever manage, what having to open the doors ourselves and remember to look to see if there was actually a platform there and, ahem, jump down if there wasn't!

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Platform 3 at Penzance also takes a 9 car.

 

[Bayum]

Three new sidings to be built at Penzance to stable 9 car IETs. Good news, but am I the only one to cringe at the way NR's media team try to explain things in a way that you might at an infants school. I would have thought the general public would have a good idea what a railway siding is without the explanation. It's not even remotely correct - a layby is somewhere where you have a pause on a journey for some reason - not somewhere where you go when you get to journey's end.

£6.5m railway investment set to begin in Penzance

A £6.55m investment by Network Rail and GWR in the railway in Cornwall will see the construction of three new sidings in Penzance, helping longer trains to run and be maintained in Cornwall.

www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk

"The new, longer sidings – which are effectively laybys for trains"

Have a look at what the reading comprehension age is for Joe public and you’ll see why they’re written as they are. They’re not there to inform train enthusiasts; they’re to inform Joe Bloggs.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Surely the solution is to get whatever problems are preventing them from splitting 10-car Hitachi sets at Plymouth sorted out.

The change in travel habits has overtaken events and growth on Penzance services is now quite a lot need to be 9/10 cars into Cornwall.

 

[Brissle Girl]

How long were trains in the good/bad old days and how did we ever manage, what having to open the doors ourselves and remember to look to see if there was actually a platform there and, ahem, jump down if there wasn't!

Thankfully fatality rates, either due to train crashes, or accidents on or around the railway (eg falling out of open doors) are a tiny fraction of what they were in the "good old days". Funnily enough, I regard that as a good thing.

 

[Trainbike46]

The change in travel habits has overtaken events and growth on Penzance services is now quite a lot need to be 9/10 cars into Cornwall.

Would running london services halfhourly with 5-car trains be an option, or are there not enough paths along the route?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Would running london services halfhourly with 5-car trains be an option, or are there not enough paths along the route?

Even if paths were available less longer trains is far more efficient!

 

[Trainbike46]

Even if paths were available less longer trains is far more efficient!

true, but it can help attract more passengers. The real question is whether the extra passengers would balance out the extra costs of 2 5-cars over 1 10-car train, which others might be better able to comment on

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The real question is whether the extra passengers would balance out the extra costs of 2 5-cars over 1 10-car train, which others might be better able to comment on

Didn't XC have a similar conundrum over part of its network maybe a decade or so ago? Whether a half-hourly 5 car train service was superior to / more effective than an hourly 10 car service.

 

[30907]

true, but it can help attract more passengers. The real question is whether the extra passengers would balance out the extra costs of 2 5-cars over 1 10-car train, which others might be better able to comment on

There is a thing called (IIRC) Generalised Journey Time which is calculated as actual journey time PLUS 1/2 the interval between trains.
So reducing that interval From 60 to 30min equates to a 15min cut. This is significant on a short journey, but reduces steadily the further you travel.
So for Paddington-Plymouth it's below 10% difference.

Of course, if you've got surplus stock, crews and paths, it's worth exploring...

 

[Brissle Girl]

Would running london services halfhourly with 5-car trains be an option, or are there not enough paths along the route?

As I understand it the signalling was enhanced recently to allow a half hourly service through Cornwall. The second train usually runs through to Exeter, and often beyond to Bristol and Cardiff. I would have thought that one to each destination offers better connectivity, particularly within the wider West Country.

 

[Trainbike46]

As I understand it the signalling was enhanced recently to allow a half hourly service through Cornwall. The second train usually runs through to Exeter, and often beyond to Bristol and Cardiff. I would have thought that one to each destination offers better connectivity, particularly within the wider West Country.

Good point, I didn't realise the 'local' service ran further than exeter

 

[irish_rail]

Would running london services halfhourly with 5-car trains be an option, or are there not enough paths along the route?

Operation Princess springs to mind! Absolutely no chance of this happening (thank goodness) no reason to employ huge additional numbers of drivers and TMs at a time when the railway is tightening its belt. The current system of a 9 car train per hour from Plymouth to London works reasonably well.
The 5s can be used variously on all other routes where appropriate, and perhaps on the London to Exeter stoppers. No need to have 5 car trains running the Plymouth to London fasts!.

 

[Xavi]

The 5s can be used variously on all other routes where appropriate, and perhaps on the London to Exeter stoppers. No need to have 5 car trains running the Plymouth to London fasts!.

Several 9s are currently used on B&H stoppers because they were once well subscribed commuter runs. With traffic more evenly spread through the day, I agree 5s would suffice, perhaps hourly serving Hungerford.

Future 802 deployment: 11 9s for hourly Penzance, 8 5s for hourly Plymouth/Paignton/Exeter, and 12 5s on hourly Penzance - Cardiff. Customers won't complain and DfT will welcome the £s saved.

Must be enough 800s to cover the remaining traffic - 5s on Oxford / Cotswolds (again commuter traffic has nosedived) and Cheltenham, 9s / 10s on Bristol / Cardiff / Swansea.

 

[ijmad]

The average reading age in the UK is a hell of a lot lower than most people think it is. As an example the content for the gov.uk site is supposed to be written with a reading age of 9 in mind. So once you add in industry jargon, I'd say it is perfectly acceptable to include a definition the layperson could understand.

gov.uk is not aiming at the average, it's aiming to be comprehensible for 90%+