Government set to go ahead with Labour Thameslink and NW plans

[furryfeet]

Where would be the closest spot east of Manchester to have curves running the reverse of the Ordsall Curve - so that trains could run from Chat Moss through Victoria, and then loop round to Piccadilly?

The Midland viaduct, between Piccadilly and the Philips Park No2 - Ashburys line.
Some of the bridges have been removed since closure in 1964.

Railtrack apparently rejected re-instating this route in its Manchester Hub RUS report. Why I know not.

Would anyone like to comment on
a) why it was rejected
b) how much this option would have cost ?
c) would it provide real benefits, as a pose to letting such trains terminate at Victoria ?

On another note, have Railtrack costed the re-instatement of Glazebrook to Northenden, thus enabling Liverpool to Manchester trains bypass the 13/14 PIccadilly bottleneck and serve Stockport as well ?

 

[YorkshireBear]

I would move the current liverpool scarbrough through victoria, yes some stations get cut off but the path between piccadilly and liverpool replaced with an oxford Rd liverpool express?

 

[pablo]

Just as it used to be, ohh, twenty or thirty years ago?

 

[tbtc]

Just to clarify on this. I was meaning the North West has got the short straw compared to other operators who have received EMUs in the past few years, not compared to all areas

As I've said though, when West Yorkshire got electrification (twenty years before the Lancashire scheme) it got cascaded EMUs from Greater London (the old class 308s IIRC, with one coach taken out of each unit).

Over time the services proved a success and "earned" new stock, then later on were rewarded with additional coaches too (the 333s were three car, but extended to four car as passenger demand rose).

The same arrangement was going to be the case for the GWML lines west of Maidenhead, with 319s taking over from 165/166s (were it to go ahead).

Realistically, this seems to be what's planned for Lancashire. You also have to bear in mind that the availability of a large number of four car EMUs in the next few years is one reason for the scheme getting the green light. If they weren't going to be available then the cost of the scheme may be too much (needing 30+ new EMUs to be built may be too much to swallow)

Also, the Airdrie - Bathgate electrification isn't getting new EMUs, its getting units cascaded from the Ayrshire lines. From memory the EMUs used on the North Berwick line were "cascaded" ones too?

So not really a case of "Lancashire gets the short straw", more a case that most/ many electrifications outside London mean cascaded EMUs. Whilst Crossrail will get lots of shiny new units, I think comparisons with other "provincial" electrifications are more relevant to Lancashire.

No need for 3 and 4 and 5 car units to be built. A build of 2 and 3 car units with corridor linkers allows formations of 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 cars to run and allows extra flexibility over all 4 cars. For example, a service scheduled to be run by a 4 car unit would likely be cancelled if the unit fails, but if it's 2x2 cars it allows for it to be run short-formed. It would also allow for more flexible maintaince schedules and less need for some of the quieter off-peak trains to run as 4 cars.

I see your logic, but EMUs don't seem to be getting built in two coach size (correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't think of many modern examples).

You'd also need space for twice as many cabs, twice as many disabled toilets, twice as many wheelchair/cycle spaces etc etc in a doubled up unit - one reason why I don't think we'll ever see a direct repalcement for 153s.

Three or four coach EMUs seem to be where its at. Ordering new two coach ones may be more expensive (per coach).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If you want a Liverpool service from Piccadilly without using 13/14 there is another possible route. Piccadilly-Stockport-Altrincham-Northwich-Runcorn-Liverpool

No real need when EMT run Piccadilly - Liverpool.

I can see the attraction in the Stockport - Northwich - Liverpool service, as I think the Cheshire towns are ripe for a quality service

The above could also be speeded up by around 20 minutes by linking the Airport line to the Mid-Cheshire line which would then allow Piccadilly-Airport-Northwich-Runcorn-Liverpool as well as services like Llandudno-Airport-Piccadilly-Hull

This really needs doing. Manchester Airport is a great boost to passenger numbers, but a real drain on service flexibility. If it were possible for services to run "through" there then there are a number of new routes that could be investigated.

In another world, Manchester Airport could be like the northern Gatwick (in railway terms) - a busy Airport station which is also an interchange between different lines and a "hub". Instead we have something like Stansted (in railway terms) - a black hole of a branchline which doesn't permit any through running (without a major time penalty for reversing)

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....From memory the EMUs used on the North Berwick line were "cascaded" ones too?....

....I see your logic, but EMUs don't seem to be getting built in two coach size (correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't think of many modern examples)....

North Berwick had 305s from Liverpool Street routes, then ex-Virgin Mk3s and DVTs, then 322s from FGE/ONE/NXEA/Stansted Express.

Current 2-car DC EMUs are classes 456 and 466 in south London, with a few other varieties in the past, however I think the most recent AC EMUs in 2-car formations were 309601-608, back in the seventies, but were later extended to 4-car formations.

 

[tbtc]

North Berwick had 305s from Liverpool Street routes, then ex-Virgin Mk3s and DVTs, then 322s from FGE/ONE/NXEA/Stansted Express

Cheers - I couldn't remember the 305! I was going to say 308s, but that was the West Yorkshire electrification

So, despite being wired almost twenty years ago (?) North Berwick has still never had new EMUs.

(though having said that, I remember sitting at the back of a 101 on the North Berwick line, as a boy, and "jumping" every time a Deltic/ HST went past us in the other direction, ah, memories...)

 

[sprinterguy]

Cheers - I couldn't remember the 305! I was going to say 308s, but that was the West Yorkshire electrification

So, despite being wired almost twenty years ago (?) North Berwick has still never had new EMUs.

It's about to though, with the 380s.

Technically the North Berwick lines' development with electric traction went 305s, 322s, 90s+mk 3s and then 322s again, and now shortly to receive 380s.

Also, I really like the idea of a Victoria-Blackburn-Burnley-Todmorden-Victoria circular service via a reinstated Todmorden curve, sounds like a clever plan to me: I could well imagine an hourly 150 service running round this loop.

 

[tbtc]

It's about to though, with the 380s.

Technically the North Berwick lines' development with electric traction went 305s, 322s, 90s+mk 3s and then 322s again, and now shortly to receive 380s.

Agreed, but it's still another example of a line not getting brand new trains from day one. I certainly don't think Lancashire is getting a raw deal, swapping Pacers for 319s.

Also, I really like the idea of a Victoria-Blackburn-Burnley-Todmorden-Victoria circular service via a reinstated Todmorden curve, sounds like a clever plan to me: I could well imagine an hourly 150 service running round this loop.

Would be a much better plan and much more cost effective than the Colne - Skipton re-opening.

 

[sprinterguy]

Agreed, but it's still another example of a line not getting brand new trains from day one. I certainly don't think Lancashire is getting a raw deal, swapping Pacers for 319s.

Yup, I completely agree with you there, I wasn't meaning to detract from your point that there is no need for new electric trains from the word go. The electrification is great news, and I'm certainly not complaining that the electric trains for the scheme are second hand when it means that there'll be guaranteed four carriage trains on all services in the area instead of two being the norm and four a welcome bonus on selected services. As has been said above, prove there is a demand there and then order new trains in the future when the economic conditions have improved.

 

[northwichcat]

I see your logic, but EMUs don't seem to be getting built in two coach size (correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't think of many modern examples).

No you're right as far as I can think of. However, it does mean some electrified services get 3 car units on off peak services with around 20 people on board e.g. Manchester to Alderley Edge, while off peak diesel services on other Manchester lines can see 100+ passengers on 2 cars.

I don't think the off-peak Victoria-Lime Streets will fill more than half a 319 especially if it's half-hourly frequency. Although the peak ones need more than a 2 car unit.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Agreed, but it's still another example of a line not getting brand new trains from day one. I certainly don't think Lancashire is getting a raw deal, swapping Pacers for 319s.

Lancashire isn't swapping Pacers for 319s. Lancashire will swap a various diesel units for 319s and then the Sprinters that will be released will go to other lines. Which ones? We don't know it could be services anywhere in the North of England that sees Pacer operation.

 

[Aictos]

It won't happen but I would love to see Northern or their successor be in a position to use EMUs on the York to Blackpool North route since part of the route will already be electrified and it would require a few infill schemes to be successful.

Means the existing stock has been used elsewhere, I guess tbtc has some idea where they could go.

 

[sprinterguy]

Lancashire isn't swapping Pacers for 319s. Lancashire will swap a various diesel units for 319s and then the Sprinters that will be released will go to other lines. Which ones? We don't know it could be services anywhere in the North of England that sees Pacer operation.

By and large though, it is the Pacer operated services in Lancaster that are likely to see the biggest inroads made through electrification, either by direct replacement of Pacers by 319s where they operate on the routes to be electrified, or by Pacers being shifted elsewhere by freed up Sprinters deployed on more diesel operated routes: Most importantly, the electrification should reduce the number of Pacers in use on unsuitable high density commuter flows.

 

[northwichcat]

It won't happen but I would love to see Northern or their successor be in a position to use EMUs on the York to Blackpool North route since part of the route will already be electrified and it would require a few infill schemes to be successful.

Means the existing stock has been used elsewhere, I guess tbtc has some idea where they could go.

In the draft electrification RUS it actually suggested electrifying the Liverpool-Scarborough route as far as York but cutting off the York-Scarborough bit and putting it on the York-Blackpool route leaving it as diesel traction.

I do think electrfying the line through Huddersfield would have far more benefits than electrfying the line through Accrington.

 

[YorkshireBear]

To be honest a pacer looks much nicer if theres two of them on a peak train.... makes me feel better anyway i hate crowding onto them near doors

will the extra units get spread through northern franchise and TPE franchise or stay in the north west?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In the draft electrification RUS it actually suggested electrifying the Liverpool-Scarborough route as far as York but cutting off the York-Scarborough bit and putting it on the York-Blackpool route leaving it as diesel traction.

I do think electrfying the line through Huddersfield would have far more benefits than electrfying the line through Accrington.

I'd love to see the TPE route electrified

The scarbrough bit is a good idea but i dont want the leeds scarbough train to become a stopper leeds york i dont think thats right so i think the electric TPE service should become the stopper over the york leeds section

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....I don't think the off-peak Victoria-Lime Streets will fill more than half a 319 especially if it's half-hourly frequency. Although the peak ones need more than a 2 car unit....

Huyton to Liverpool currently has four trains an hour I think, Earlestown has atleast two trains every hour to Liverpool already and Newton Le Willows gets a fast and slow train each hour. I can't say how well loaded they are, but I suspect the only places that four car units could be overkill is Patricroft and Eccles. Eccles is a 35 minute tram ride from Manchester and that is every 12 minutes, so a ten minute journey to Manchester every hour isn't really a big option off peak, even if it is cheaper. But every half hour and cheaper is a much better option.

Also, the train from Eccles and Patricroft connects well with the ATW service to Warrington, Chester and north Wales, but the 50 minute wait on the return journey will put people off, a 20 minute connection from the half hourly service would not

 

[me123]

I...Scotrail have both ordered a lot of new EMUs so that doesn't leave many existing electrified lines requiring a whole load of new EMUs and this does leave the North West with the short straw compared to other areas (except South West) who got brand new trains.

Just to go into the background behind Scotrail getting new trains, and explain why it's hardly comparable to this project in any way whatsoever.

Scotland is getting a new line; Airdrie-Bathgate. We need more EMUs in order to operate this service. With overcrowding on the Ayrshire lines, the new stock will go there and the 334s are going to the new line. (See elsewhere for more details if you're interested).

The specification for the new units was a mix of 3 and 4 car trains with 23m long carriages with SDO. This has been ordered for a variety of reasons. Contrast this to the 20m long 319 carriages, which only come in 4 car formation and don't currently have SDO. It simply does not fit our requirements up here.

Also, bear in mind that Scotrail currently has 314s running around Cathcart and Inverclyde, and still will do for the foreseeable future. These are trains that almost make the pacers look modern and are amongst the oldest trains on the network.

I don't think the North West should moan. They are suited to the jobs in question, and are undeniably an improvement on what's currently there. They have a greater capacity, a greater line speed, and better acceleration. Refurbish them and they probably could be quite comfortable. I'd be quite happy with them. Fair enough you want new units, and who can blame you, but being realistic it's a fair trade-off all in all.

 

[tbtc]

I don't think the off-peak Victoria-Lime Streets will fill more than half a 319 especially if it's half-hourly frequency. Although the peak ones need more than a 2 car unit

Well, a half hourly service with four coach trains may be more attractive to some "through" passengers than the 158/185s on the Piccadilly (or Pacer on the Oxford Road stoppers) - I may be more tempted to head to Victoria and get a seat - also the self contained Victoria services will be more reliable than the Piccadilly ones which come from Norwich/ Scarborough.

(makes less difference heading east, since all trains are leaving the same Liverpool station)

 

[Deerfold]

West Yorkshire (Skpiton/Ilkey/Bradford/Leeds) was originally planned to get new trains lease-purchased by WYPTE. However as privatisation was coming in the seller insisted on confimarmation from central government that they would cover any payments WYPTE could not make. This was not forthcoming and the deal fell through so West Yorkshire saw a surprise return of slam-door stock when they'd been promising a premium service.

I'd also note that post-electrification and frequency enhancement the lines have seen an enormous growth in usage (more so on the Leeds side) so that many trains are standing-room only (most peaks and the 2318 ex Leeds) despite being much bigger than the sprinters/pacers (not entirely sure which)which used to run on the line. Amazing what relatively comfy and fast trains can do.

 

[Lampshade]

I raise you the 17:22 from Piccadilly to Southport, booked 2x142, leaves people behind at Piccadilly regularly hock:

 

[YorkshireBear]

I raise you the 17:22 from Piccadilly to Southport, booked 2x142, leaves people behind at Piccadilly regularly hock:

jesus christ :?

 

[Deerfold]

My sister regularly gets left at Leeds on the Calder Valley line - but that's because her train is regularly not strengthened even though it is suposed to be.

 

[YorkshireBear]

the day the pacers go will be a sad day for the northern railways capacity

 

[tbtc]

I'd love to see the TPE route electrified

Likewise.

The trouble is the eastern branches (electrifying Liverpool - Deansgate makes sense)

Newcastle is already wired, but would it be worth wiring to Middlesbrough/ Scarborough/ Hull? Or acceptable to run diesels on these services? Or cut the links (so that northern TPE ran Liverpool/ Manchester Airport - Piccadilly - Huddersfield - Leeds - York - Darlington - Newcastle only?

What would you prefer?

 

[northwichcat]

Well, a half hourly service with four coach trains may be more attractive to some "through" passengers than the 158/185s on the Piccadilly (or Pacer on the Oxford Road stoppers) - I may be more tempted to head to Victoria and get a seat - also the self contained Victoria services will be more reliable than the Piccadilly ones which come from Norwich/ Scarborough.

(makes less difference heading east, since all trains are leaving the same Liverpool station)

On the current timetable at Piccadilly if the service from Norwich is overcrowded or late then it's only 13 minutes until the Airport-Lime Street service arrives at Piccadilly.

Heading east on the current timetable you can board the Victoria stopper at Lime St, change to the service from Llandudno at Newton-le-Willows and arrive at Oxford Rd slightly before the stopper reaches Victoria, but you will be overtaken by the Liverpool-Norwich service.

 

[Aictos]

Likewise.

The trouble is the eastern branches (electrifying Liverpool - Deansgate makes sense)

Newcastle is already wired, but would it be worth wiring to Middlesbrough/ Scarborough/ Hull? Or acceptable to run diesels on these services? Or cut the links (so that northern TPE ran Liverpool/ Manchester Airport - Piccadilly - Huddersfield - Leeds - York - Darlington - Newcastle only?

What would you prefer?

Out of Middlesborough, Scarborough and Hull, Hull makes sense to electrify as it means services to London which would be 100% under the wires could be electric but there is no solid promise of this as the Birmingham to Glasgow/Edinburgh services are diesels if I'm correct?

However more electrification has got to be a good thing and we need more of it.

 

[ukrob]

On the current timetable at Piccadilly if the service from Norwich is overcrowded or late then it's only 13 minutes until the Airport-Lime Street service arrives at Piccadilly.

Eh?

The Liverpool bound EMT service is XX37 from Piccadilly, the next service, which is the Airport - Liverpool service you mention, is at XX01 - where does 13 minutes come from?

 

[northwichcat]

I raise you the 17:22 from Piccadilly to Southport, booked 2x142, leaves people behind at Piccadilly regularly hock:

Maybe that service should have pick-up only stops at Salford Crescent and Bolton. That would then hopefully encourage people who are able to, to try harder to catch the 6 car 17:15 service to those stations. I think the 17:27 to those stations is a 4 car Sprinter so likewise that should be a better service for the Salford and Bolton people to board.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Eh?

The Liverpool bound EMT service is XX37 from Piccadilly, the next service, which is the Airport - Liverpool service you mention, is at XX01 - where does 13 minutes come from?

Ah I was using the Lime Street arrival times opposed to the Piccadilly departure times.

 

[tbtc]

On the current timetable at Piccadilly if the service from Norwich is overcrowded or late

Sadly it's often both

 

[northwichcat]

jesus christ :?

2x142s have less seats than a 323, as many people will be aware of from when the 142s filled in for the lack of 323s.

 

[ukrob]

Ah I was using the Lime Street arrival times opposed to the Piccadilly departure times.

Ah ok, still a bit out though

Remember the two services take the two different routes to Lime Street too, the Northern service takes Chat Moss and takes 47 mins, the EMT takes Warrington and takes 54 mins.