Grand National (Liverpool) - Lack of extra/strengthened services

[Bletchleyite]

In terms of crowding, yes. But as Avanti are saying reservations are compulsory, they are not committing to transport more than the booked passenger load. It is stranding these people overnight that's unacceptable.

 

[Taunton]

I've written before about being at the July 1978 rock concert at Blackbushe, near Hook on the Waterloo line.Quarter-million audience. Southern Region ran us a huge post-midnight return lift back to Waterloo, with a whole string of 12-EPB brought in from all across the region, though crews obviously were only those signing the route. Weekend, peak holiday time, Saturday night. Yet it was all fully crewed. How did they manage it?

Incidentally, I didn't see even a light bulb broken.

 

[Starmill]

In terms of crowding, yes. But as Avanti are saying reservations are compulsory, they are not committing to transport more than the booked passenger load. It is stranding these people overnight that's unacceptable.

It's very unlikely that anyone would have been stranded unless they were at Lime Street station after 2000, because there was an eight car LNR and road transport. The 2134 LNR also ran, though with no connections beyond Birmingham.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's very unlikely that anyone would have been stranded unless they were at Lime Street station after 2000, because there was an eight car LNR and road transport. The 2134 LNR also ran, though with no connections beyond Birmingham.

Last two from Manchester were canned, though, as they are later there would be fewer other options if any.

One is not required to arrive a specified time before one's booked train. Again, if this is to be required it must be clearly stated at purchase.

 

[Starmill]

Last two from Manchester were canned, though, as they are later there would be fewer other options if any.

I agree that being on a coach from Manchester to London at that time is very undesirable but that's a lot better than being stranded. And I also don't understand what that has to do with the Grand National as almost nobody who had been at Aintree would be going from Manchester to London, and no services from Liverpool later than the 2006 to Birmingham New Street would have connected with Avanti West Coast anywhere.

One is not required to arrive a specified time before one's booked train. Again, if this is to be required it must be clearly stated at purchase.

Nobody suggested this was the case.

 

[Falcon1200]

The Grand National used to run at 3.45. It now runs at 5.15, for the TV. It's the same with FA Cup finals starting at 5.30pm not 3pm.

It's easy to blame the railways, but sports event organisers need to take some responsibility too.

Valid points.

Difficulty covering Saturday late shifts is nothing new, I was in danger of missing my sister's wedding because it coincided with a World Cup football match and I was last to apply for the day off - in 1990. Only through a colleague working a very short turn round (not allowed now) did I get leave.

 

[Towers]

In terms of crowding, yes. But as Avanti are saying reservations are compulsory, they are not committing to transport more than the booked passenger load. It is stranding these people overnight that's unacceptable.

I very much doubt that policy is ever actually universally enforced on major event days, it is surely just a preemptive attempt of putting people off and stemming the flow a little?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

From how far afield do the majority of folk attending the 3 day Grand National race meeting event actually travel?

 

[gazzaa2]

In terms of crowding, yes. But as Avanti are saying reservations are compulsory, they are not committing to transport more than the booked passenger load. It is stranding these people overnight that's unacceptable.

Then they have be able to run services that are scheduled to run.

Of course trains get cancelled or delayed for reasons beyond their control, and here and there they'll need to cancel services, but this shouldn't be the norm like with Avanti now and other TOCS in leaving people stranded or crammed into packed carriages because of 2 previous trains cancelled.

It's no good having the airline mentality of giving you an allocated seat if it's cancelled and then you have to stand up on the next one or the one after that.

 

[muz379]

It seems, there is a general decline in public service ethics and a greater willingness to cancel trains without consideration for passengers, especially last trains, covid is used as a convenient excuse to do so, in my drivers job we keep a float of spare drivers as a contingency in case of short notice sick absence or incidents to take over, surely it's not beyond the wit to keep a spare driver and guard for the last train in case of this.

Or is saving money more important than stranding passengers overnight.

Short of increasing staff numbers which is not a short fix by any stretch of the imagination I fail to see what more could be done .

In terms of keeping a spare driver and guard for the last train , what if after all of the spares being rostered 4/5 days in advanced you have nobody left over and already have uncovered work ? Sure you might be able to roster to ensure that the last train is covered but if the one before it and the one before that are not covered then the last train suddenly carries 3 train loads of passengers .

 

[LowLevel]

It seems, there is a general decline in public service ethics and a greater willingness to cancel trains without consideration for passengers, especially last trains, covid is used as a convenient excuse to do so, in my drivers job we keep a float of spare drivers as a contingency in case of short notice sick absence or incidents to take over, surely it's not beyond the wit to keep a spare driver and guard for the last train in case of this.

Or is saving money more important than stranding passengers overnight.

There are floats of spare drivers - they're used to cover to leave and sickness. The latter is high at the minute and driver training is still behind.

If you ring me up at home and say "hello Bob, do you want to come in on your Saturday off (which varies between depots, in some areas you work 2 out of 3, one roster I worked if was 8 out of 9) and work the last train of the night for us as the booked person picked up COVID and gone sick?" then I'm probably just going to politely decline and put the phone down then continue with my plans to chill out and have a few beers.

Perspective - the very last Saturday I worked lates as guard the other week I had to deal with a train full of noisy football fans and hen parties, including the obligatory chanting and banging on the windows. Then I got covered in sick dealing with someone who was drunk and incapable. Then at the other end I had to point out to the cleaners all of the seats that were covered in vomit and leave them to sorting out what looked like an explosion in a rubbish tip in the rest of the train, lakes of piss and beer bottles in the toilets etc.

Who would volunteer to subject themselves to that? Covering these turns is easier said than done.

Unless you sort out the delightful British attitude to Friday and Saturday nights which seems unlikely to happen to me then you're going to have this problem forever.

It happened before COVID I might add.

 

[gazzaa2]

Short of increasing staff numbers which is not a short fix by any stretch of the imagination I fail to see what more could be done .

In terms of keeping a spare driver and guard for the last train , what if after all of the spares being rostered 4/5 days in advanced you have nobody left over and already have uncovered work ? Sure you might be able to roster to ensure that the last train is covered but if the one before it and the one before that are not covered then the last train suddenly carries 3 train loads of passengers .

I don't see how a company like Avanti can justify charging what they do for a ticket, when they have such issues running trains they've sold those tickets for.

With the prices they charge being short staffed is a lame excuse. "You get what you pay for" certainly isn't applying here. Rather than lose a stack of money by having to refund people every week, employ more staff in the first place and with better working conditions re rest days etc.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I've written before about being at the July 1978 rock concert at Blackbushe, near Hook on the Waterloo line.Quarter-million audience. Southern Region ran us a huge post-midnight return lift back to Waterloo, with a whole string of 12-EPB brought in from all across the region, though crews obviously were only those signing the route. Weekend, peak holiday time, Saturday night. Yet it was all fully crewed. How did they manage it?

Incidentally, I didn't see even a light bulb broken.

Because back then the railway was a relatively lowly paid job so staff were always hungry for overtime, now pay is overall much better people are less keen to work extra shifts.

 

[MattRat]

I don't think the train situation had much of an impact for most travellers, as most of them drove or were driven in some form.

Roads were packed though, and I imagine it took people a while to get back home.

 

[ChrisC]

Perspective - the very last Saturday I worked lates as guard the other week I had to deal with a train full of noisy football fans and hen parties, including the obligatory chanting and banging on the windows. Then I got covered in sick dealing with someone who was drunk and incapable. Then at the other end I had to point out to the cleaners all of the seats that were covered in vomit and leave them to sorting out what looked like an explosion in a rubbish tip in the rest of the train, lakes of piss and beer bottles in the toilets etc.

Who would volunteer to subject themselves to that? Covering these turns is easier said than done.

Unless you sort out the delightful British attitude to Friday and Saturday nights which seems unlikely to happen to me then you're going to have this problem forever.

It happened before COVID I might add.

I fully understand and can see why rail staff would not offer to work a Saturday evening late train if they don’t have to. For the very same reason that a number of years ago I stopped going out for day trips on Saturdays that involved travelling back in the evening by train. It can be horrendous, and if I feel intimidated and uncomfortable as a male in my mid 60’s, what must it be like for families with young children or most respectable women travelling on their own. I say respectable women because I have found groups of drunken women at times worse than drunken football fans. I know most football fans are ok and harmless but it’s not nice travelling for a couple of hours in a confined space with constant singing, banging on tables and windows and the bad language.

 

[dk1]

I don't think the train situation had much of an impact for most travellers, as most of them drove or were driven in some form.

Roads were packed though, and I imagine it took people a while to get back home.

I think you’ll find the majority arrive by train at the course itself & huge numbers from further afield too. What would be the point of driving then having parking issues but more importantly in not being able to drink? It’s what the day is all about.

 

[6Gman]

The issues with these big sporting events work both ways. Cancelling late trains is bad. But the sports events organisers have deliberately chosen to put greater strain on late trains with their scheduling plans.

The Grand National used to run at 3.45. It now runs at 5.15, for the TV. It's the same with FA Cup finals starting at 5.30pm not 3pm.

It's easy to blame the railways, but sports event organisers need to take some responsibility too.

This. Putting the race back and adding a further race after it has had a significant impact on evening travel patterns.

From how far afield do the majority of folk attending the 3 day Grand National race meeting event actually travel?

Judging by the coaches (as in road vehicles) that turn up and my experience travelling back in a Crewe direction after the National, largely from the North West and Yorkshire but with significant numbers from Scotland (the latter group tend to stay overnight).

Relatively few seem to come from the Midlands or the South of England.

I generally use a Liverpool - Birmingham service after the National and there aren't a huge number of racegoers aboard.

 

[MattRat]

I think you’ll find the majority arrive by train at the course itself & huge numbers from further afield too. What would be the point of driving then having parking issues but more importantly in not being able to drink? It’s what the day is all about.

I said driving or driven. Plenty of taxis, coaches, limos, party buses, etc. Plus the roads were packed, I saw it with my own eyes, I'm close enough to hear the helicopter overhead.

You might think it's silly, but it happened.

 

[dk1]

I said driving or driven. Plenty of taxis, coaches, limos, party buses, etc. Plus the roads were packed, I saw it with my own eyes, I'm close enough to hear the helicopter overhead.

You might think it's silly, but it happened.

Plenty arrive like that but thousands & thousands arrive by train. I’ve been around 20 times. Only time by Road was during a rail strike & it was horrendous.

 

[ashkeba]

I said driving or driven. Plenty of taxis, coaches, limos, party buses, etc. Plus the roads were packed, I saw it with my own eyes, I'm close enough to hear the helicopter overhead.

You might think it's silly, but it happened.

It is a shame we don't have some reliable way of moving large crowds without clogging the roads(!)

Any reports of humanitarian problems last night yet?

 

[muz379]

I don't see how a company like Avanti can justify charging what they do for a ticket, when they have such issues running trains they've sold those tickets for.

With the prices they charge being short staffed is a lame excuse. "You get what you pay for" certainly isn't applying here. Rather than lose a stack of money by having to refund people every week, employ more staff in the first place and with better working conditions re rest days etc.

I do not disagree that resolving staffing issue should be a priority .

But lets be hoenst about the reality here which is that staff absence levels are running well above average because of an increase in covid infections . Whilst some spare cover is factored in with staff numbers there will be a limit to what percentage can be off before issues are caused . Even the most generous RDW agreements will struggle it entice many into additional saturdays especially late turns .

If busses were on standby and trains reinstated it sounds like efforts were put into shifting people .

 

[dk1]

It is a shame we don't have some reliable way of moving large crowds without clogging the roads(!)

The queues zigzag around like Alton Towers at Aintree Station after the race but it’s always good humoured & a DJ along with free flip flops for the ladies & portaloos are provided for relief. It keeps moving as each 6-car train is crush loaded before another runs in to soak up another crowd. All extremely well organised with good revenue protection.

 

[6Gman]

The queues zigzag around like Alton Towers at Aintree Station after the race but it’s always good humoured & a DJ along with free flip flops for the ladies & portaloos are provided for relief. It keeps moving as each 6-car train is crush loaded before another runs in to soak up another crowd. All extremely well organised with good revenue protection.

Didn't somebody suggest upthread that the usual 7/8 min frequency had been reduced to 10 this year? If true that's a 25% reduction which would definitely have slowed things down.

Some of us - of course - walk to Old Roan, board nice largely empty trains and - when we enter Aintree - look up and ask "Oh, is there something on?"

 

[cygnus44]

I used to regularly attend the Grand National 30 to 40 years ago from the South East via London always plenty of extra carriages and extra services, they also ran merrymaker excursions from London area on National Day direct to Liverpool for many years. That was when the railway operated for the public not shareholders.

 

[Kite159]

Why is it the later services on Saturday that are being cancelled left right and centre? The trains out of Euston were generally fine through the day and then it got to 5pm and they were being cancelled all over te place. Thankfully a couple of the Liverpool ones ended up running anyway.

I know there's staffing issues but it seems weird that they were between 5-8pm..

Because some of those late services on Saturday nights can be full of people who have had a bit too much to drink and cause trouble, like trying to beat up the toilet door for "looking at them funny".

I can't blame the staff for not wanting to work those sort of trains

 

[dk1]

Didn't somebody suggest upthread that the usual 7/8 min frequency had been reduced to 10 this year? If true that's a 25% reduction which would definitely have slowed things down.

Some of us - of course - walk to Old Roan, board nice largely empty trains and - when we enter Aintree - look up and ask "Oh, is there something on?"

Most definitely. I only assumed the normal 15min frequency is reduced to 20 so the 7/8 wouldn’t work. It’s always been 8tph on National day for as long as I can remember. Covid really is a bloody nuisance.

 

[randyrippley]

There's a simple answer
Move the event away from Liverpool to somewhere more central with better road and rail provision. Milton Keynes maybe?
Best location would be an old abandoned RAF airfield with a large perimeter giving plenty of room for a new course, and also room for a general aviation runway

All that valuable land would be freed up in Aintree, Liverpool desperately needs new industrial land

 

[dk1]

There's a simple answer
Move the event away from Liverpool to somewhere more central with better road and rail provision. Milton Keynes maybe?
Best location would be an old abandoned RAF airfield with a large perimeter giving plenty of room for a new course, and also room for a general aviation runway

All that valuable land would be freed up in Aintree, Liverpool desperately needs new industrial land

I’m crying with laughter here.

 

[bluenoxid]

I always love those comments that start with “there’s a simple answer” and it involves billions of pounds relocating something to another part of the country.

Replacing Becher’s Brook with a taxiing private jet is going to really change things up.

 

[cygnus44]

I’m crying with laughter here.

As am i