Grand Union approved for Cardiff to London open access by ORR from December 2024

[43102EMR]

According to www.granduniontrains.co.uk


Stirling to London will use Some loco+ Mark 4s

Camarthen to London will use some sort of 80x variant.a

I think Stirling to London will have more success than Carmarthen to London, but guess we’ll have to wait and see what happens.

 

[paul1609]

I think Stirling to London will have more success than Carmarthen to London, but guess we’ll have to wait and see what happens.

I dont, the costs of running Preston to Stirling massively outweigh the traffic on offer. The only way this service could even break even would be revenue extraction from the taxpayer supported services.

 

[Adlington]

Spanish national operator would partner Grand Union

RENFE has announced that is considering a proposal from British open-access operator Grand Union Trains that would see the Spanish national operator join the company as a strategic partner.

Moving into markets outside Spain is one of the three key drivers of Renfe’s strategic plan, and the company says that joining Grand Union represents an interesting and profitable opportunity to enter the attractive British market.

 

[anthony263]

I've been reading through the latest consultation responses. Cross Country have stated they support this latest application however grand union have had a dig at the DFT/GWR

 

[pdeaves]

I've been reading through the latest consultation responses. Cross Country have stated they support this latest application however grand union have had a dig at the DFT/GWR

Grand Union's 'side' of the discussion always seems to look like 'throwing the toys out of the pram'. Rather than make a good argument for the proposal, it tends to look more like moaning about everyone else.

 

[anthony263]

Grand Union's 'side' of the discussion always seems to look like 'throwing the toys out of the pram'. Rather than make a good argument for the proposal, it tends to look more like moaning about everyone else.

They saying that gwr planning on extending the London to swansea services to Carmarthen every 2 hours against them but its seems according to grand union neither the dft or GWR have told tfw or the Welsh government about this neither has anything been mentioned to the ORR

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

I've been reading through the latest consultation responses. Cross Country have stated they support this latest application however grand union have had a dig at the DFT/GWR

What's the reason CrossCountry support it when they run no further than Cardiff Central into Wales?

I can understand Grand Union not being happy at the DfT but I don't see why GWR are being moaned at.

 

[anthony263]

What's the reason CrossCountry support it when they run no further than Cardiff Central into Wales?

I can understand Grand Union not being happy at the DfT but I don't see why GWR are being moaned at.

Cross-country issue was the paths through Westerleigh junction just east of Bristol parkway.

Gwr apparently planning to extend the London to swansea service to Carmarthen every 2 hours however grand union said tfw or the Welsh government had no idea

 

[pdeaves]

What's the reason CrossCountry support it when they run no further than Cardiff Central into Wales?

Probably, knowing how formal processes work, 'support' really means 'no objections that we can justify', but you have to say things in a certain way.

 

[Envoy]

It’s a bit rich of GWR to object being as they are really First Group who operate the Lumo service on the ECML.

Excellent idea to use the Swansea District Line with a new station near the M4 north of the city with parking - also near Morriston Hospital so could have a shuttle bus link.

I would have thought that railway land for stabling exists at Llanelli?

Being as the TfW Manchester services operated by 67’s and Mk 4 coaches will not go west of Cardiff, the Grand Union service would help mitigate the loss of the through ‘Manchester' trains that are currently hourly.

 

[anthony263]

It’s a bit rich of GWR to object being as they are really First Group who operate the Lumo service on the ECML.

Excellent idea to use the Swansea District Line with a new station near the M4 north of the city with parking - also near Morriston Hospital so could have a shuttle bus link.

I would have thought that railway land for stabling exists at Llanelli?

Being as the TfW Manchester services operated by 67’s and Mk 4 coaches will not go west of Cardiff, the Grand Union service would help mitigate the loss of the through ‘Manchester' trains that are currently hourly.

Good point although to get demand built up at Swansea parkway you'd need at least 1 tph so if there's a 2 hourly link at least between grand unions services maybe tfw or Cross Country etc could extend west of Cardiff. Cross-country were considering extending the Nottingham to Cardiff trains to Carmarthen using the district line

 

[Jim]

They saying that gwr planning on extending the London to swansea services to Carmarthen every 2 hours against them but its seems according to grand union neither the dft or GWR have told tfw or the Welsh government about this neither has anything been mentioned to the ORR

Wonder if that's in reaction to this idea?

 

[popeter45]

Excellent idea to use the Swansea District Line with a new station near the M4 north of the city with parking - also near Morriston Hospital so could have a shuttle bus link.

i get the feeling this new swansea parkway could easily end up a failed project unless that offer easy connections to Swansea Main station and i dont know of any way for easy routing from the Swansea District Line to the swansea section of the main line

 

[4-SUB 4732]

i get the feeling this new swansea parkway could easily end up a failed project unless that offer easy connections to Swansea Main station and i dont know of any way for easy routing from the Swansea District Line to the swansea section of the main line

Felindre has a lot of promise. There is a vast tract of West Wales and parts of Swansea for whom a park and ride well outside of towns or a place with plenty of parking would make the station very effective.

 

[popeter45]

Felindre has a lot of promise. There is a vast tract of West Wales and parts of Swansea for whom a park and ride well outside of towns or a place with plenty of parking would make the station very effective.

yes but that park and ride is useless unless it can actually connect to the actual city station its supposed to be a out of city connection for cause i suspect alot more people near morrison want to go to Swansea vs London
imagine if bristol parkway had no services to bristol temple meads

a major upgrade to Llansamlet to low level platforms on the swansea district line would actually work alot better as a parkway

 

[AlastairFraser]

yes but that park and ride is useless unless it can actually connect to the actual city station its supposed to be a out of city connection for cause i suspect alot more people near morrison want to go to Swansea vs London
imagine if bristol parkway had no services to bristol temple meads

It isn't though, it's supposed to be a station for people from West Wales to head to England and South East Wales without clogging up the M4. Parking in Swansea is expensive, so currently these people have no incentive not to drive the whole way.

 

[popeter45]

It isn't though, it's supposed to be a station for people from West Wales to head to England and South East Wales without clogging up the M4. Parking in Swansea is expensive, so currently these people have no incentive not to drive the whole way.

i must disagree
to build a station entirly for a single intercity service while disregarding regional usage makes zero sence
as a regular user of Swansea-London GWR services the load factor beyond cardiff is tiny, to justify the cost of an entire station for such low ridership on such a service alone just wouldnt happen

 

[Techniquest]

yes but that park and ride is useless unless it can actually connect to the actual city station its supposed to be a out of city connection for cause i suspect alot more people near morrison want to go to Swansea vs London
imagine if bristol parkway had no services to bristol temple meads

a major upgrade to Llansamlet to low level platforms on the swansea district line would actually work alot better as a parkway

Wouldn't Swansea Parkway be more of a connection into Swansea by bus off the train using the District Line? I'd imagine it would see a major amount of use, traffic in Swansea can be frustrating as can parking. Depending on its location, it would have the potential to bring in business from many surrounding towns and villages.

Say you're going from Pontardawe, not too many miles north of Swansea, and you want to travel on a train and you either don't drive or you can but you'd prefer to use public transport (so you can consume something alcoholic on the journey for example). The most logical choice, from what I can see, is a bus to Swansea then onto the train. That journey into Swansea can take a while!

Similar could apply from places like Loughor and Gowerton, or Bynea, Pontarddulais and many more. A drive to the Parkway station would be potentially much more welcoming than the drive into Swansea, finding a parking spot, paying for that and getting on the train.

 

[Bald Rick]

It isn't though, it's supposed to be a station for people from West Wales to head to England and South East Wales without clogging up the M4. Parking in Swansea is expensive, so currently these people have no incentive not to drive the whole way.

Everyone seems to be forgetting that there is already a Parkway station 11 miles further along the M4 at Port Talbot. Anyone from West Wales who is heading to England / SE Wales*, who is inclined to get the train and happy to use a parkway is just going to drive there; save some train fare, some journey time, and have many more services to choose from than the few a day that might be routed on the Swansea District line.

* we are talking penny numbers of people heading to England. Rather more to Cardiff, but the point stands.

 

[popeter45]

Wouldn't Swansea Parkway be more of a connection into Swansea by bus off the train using the District Line? I'd imagine it would see a major amount of use, traffic in Swansea can be frustrating as can parking. Depending on its location, it would have the potential to bring in business from many surrounding towns and villages.

Say you're going from Pontardawe, not too many miles north of Swansea, and you want to travel on a train and you either don't drive or you can but you'd prefer to use public transport (so you can consume something alcoholic on the journey for example). The most logical choice, from what I can see, is a bus to Swansea then onto the train. That journey into Swansea can take a while!

Similar could apply from places like Loughor and Gowerton, or Bynea, Pontarddulais and many more. A drive to the Parkway station would be potentially much more welcoming than the drive into Swansea, finding a parking spot, paying for that and getting on the train.

parking wouldnt have been so terrible if they didnt close car parks nearby to sell to student flat builders but i digress
i agree a parkway makes sence its just the location that doesnt make sence, Llansamlet is off the M4 and would make far more sence especally as it opens up way more connections as it could work as a junction station serving existing routes like Gowerton, Swansea and Neath by rail where Felindre would not
yea make Felindre a station just not the main parkway

 

[AlastairFraser]

i must disagree
to build a station entirly for a single intercity service while disregarding regional usage makes zero sence
as a regular user of Swansea-London GWR services the load factor beyond cardiff is tiny, to justify the cost of an entire station for such low ridership on such a service alone just wouldnt happen

The station could be the first phase of a regional transport plan - I'm sure I recall the West Wales Metro Welsh government plan already exists, perhaps this could be the first part?
Remember many Parkway stations open with a relatively basic service e.g. Worcestershire Parkway/Thanet Parkway and will receive service enhancements later on.

Everyone seems to be forgetting that there is already a Parkway station 11 miles further along the M4 at Port Talbot. Anyone from West Wales who is heading to England / SE Wales*, who is inclined to get the train and happy to use a parkway is just going to drive there; save some train fare, some journey time, and have many more services to choose from than the few a day that might be routed on the Swansea District line.

* we are talking penny numbers of people heading to England. Rather more to Cardiff, but the point stands.

The problem is that Port Talbot Parkway is a few miles past the point where Swansea traffic joins the M4, so you don't save any journey time in peak hours.
And, as I mentioned to popeter, the Welsh Government already have early plans for a regional "metro" in the area, so the station wouldn't just be for intercity services long term.
The reasons East Midlands Parkway didn't meet expectations include the poor local transport links and link to one of its' major traffic sources, East Midlands Airport.
There is a frequent bus service to the nearby Morriston Hospital from many areas of Swansea that could be extended to the new Parkway station without massive investment. It is also next to an employment area and an existing urban area, unlike EMP.

 

[Bald Rick]

The problem is that Port Talbot Parkway is a few miles past the point where Swansea traffic joins the M4, so you don't save any journey time in peak hours.

Its hardly Piccadilly Circus congestion-wise though, unless you are travelling on a summer Saturday.

Right now, smack in the morning peak, with a train strike on, it’s a 17 minute drive from the site of the proposed parkway and Port Talbot (According to Google maps). I agree that journey time would be little different between rail and car, but Port Talbot will always have a much better service to the east than this proposed parkway, and will remain far more attractive.

The regional metro is no use if it doesn’t serve the local city.

 

[Techniquest]

parking wouldnt have been so terrible if they didnt close car parks nearby to sell to student flat builders but i digress
i agree a parkway makes sence its just the location that doesnt make sence, Llansamlet is off the M4 and would make far more sence especally as it opens up way more connections as it could work as a junction station serving existing routes like Gowerton, Swansea and Neath by rail where Felindre would not
yea make Felindre a station just not the main parkway

Llansamlet would need a lot of work to achieve such a status. I haven't been there for maybe 18 years, I'm not actually sure when it was now. However unless things have dramatically changed since then, you'd need to build a big car park, put in a decent footbridge with lifts, ramps where necessary, extend the platforms significantly for longer trains and no doubt plenty of other works. I don't know if you'd have room at Llansamlet for all of that, quite honestly. You'd also need to make sure the local roads were fit for the task, which I don't know about.

 

[robert thomas]

Wouldn't Swansea Parkway be more of a connection into Swansea by bus off the train using the District Line? I'd imagine it would see a major amount of use, traffic in Swansea can be frustrating as can parking. Depending on its location, it would have the potential to bring in business from many surrounding towns and villages.

Say you're going from Pontardawe, not too many miles north of Swansea, and you want to travel on a train and you either don't drive or you can but you'd prefer to use public transport (so you can consume something alcoholic on the journey for example). The most logical choice, from what I can see, is a bus to Swansea then onto the train. That journey into Swansea can take a while!

Similar could apply from places like Loughor and Gowerton, or Bynea, Pontarddulais and many more. A drive to the Parkway station would be potentially much more welcoming than the drive into Swansea, finding a parking spot, paying for that and getting on the train.

From Pontardawe you would take a bus to Neath for the train

 

[Techniquest]

From Pontardawe you would take a bus to Neath for the train

Fair one. Pontardawe was just the first place that came to mind, when I'm in that area I normally aim straight for Swansea but that's usually when on a family trip.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Fair one. Pontardawe was just the first place that came to mind, when I'm in that area I normally aim straight for Swansea but that's usually when on a family trip.

Home - Grand Union Trains Ltd

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www.granduniontrains.co.uk

A little bit of an update on the Grand Union website ...

Grand Union is proposing to launch a new service between Carmarthen and London. It will start with a full service between Carmarthen and London in 2025 during the timetable that begins in December 2024. A new parkway station is proposed to be built at Parc Felindre close to Junction 46 of the M4 motorway. Services will call here and bypass Swansea thereby reducing journey times from further west to Cardiff and London by around 20 minutes. This new service will bring more journey opportunities, wider economic benefits and significant employment to the people of South Wales.

 

[Wyrleybart]

I imagine Grand Central Trains will establish some creditibilty in the industry when the order for new trains has been signed and the fleet delivered. Assuming it is Hitachi 8xx designed stock it shouldn't be an issue, but they will need to recruit crews in competition with GWR and TfW.

Lets hope the involvement of RENFE will assist, but there are a few mountains to climb. .

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

So just to confirm, the Class 802 stock will have compartments in First Class? If so, I can see this proving well popular with passengers especially with a buffet car !

 

[4-SUB 4732]

So just to confirm, the Class 802 stock will have compartments in First Class? If so, I can see this proving well popular with passengers especially with a buffet car !

Let’s be honest, nobody knows anything yet and this sort of detail won’t be prepared. They may not even end up starting, so…

 

[JonathanH]

So just to confirm, the Class 802 stock will have compartments in First Class? If so, I can see this proving well popular with passengers especially with a buffet car !

How many passengers travel in groups of six these days? Compartments are only popular when people get one to themselves. You only have to go to a preserved railway to see the frown you get when you join someone in a compartment.