Great British Railways: Livery, branding and appearance?

[irish_rail]

So we need 25,600 different liveries so that if one service is unreliable or 'bad' it won't tarnish any others? Or will you have different liveries for 'Never on time', 'you might be lucky today', 'right time every time'?

I do think that the ridiculous mish mash of liveries whilst good for the enthusiast is a bit of an embarrassment and does not help present a joined up network.
Look at France or Italy, with the TGV or Frecciarossa trains providing a uniform intercity fleet no matter where in the country you are.

 

[zwk500]

I do think that the ridiculous mish mash of liveries whilst good for the enthusiast is a bit of an embarrassment and does not help present a joined up network.
Look at France or Italy, with the TGV or Frecciarossa trains providing a uniform intercity fleet no matter where in the country you are.

I agree. A single uniform brand for all major long-distance trains, then with a common theme/template for regional and commuter trains, so that local areas can put a bit of 'flavour' onto them. But still recognisably part of the same organisation.

 

[YorksLad12]

I agree. A single uniform brand for all major long-distance trains, then with a common theme/template for regional and commuter trains, so that local areas can put a bit of 'flavour' onto them. But still recognisably part of the same organisation.

Whih is what we had to start with, 30 years ago; InterCity, (Great) British Rail Provincial/Regional Railways

 

[zwk500]

Whih is what we had to start with, 30 years ago; InterCity, (Great) British Rail Provincial/Regional Railways

Tbf, it took quite a bit of time to get to sectorisation! But just because something was done before, doesn't mean it is a bad idea now.

 

[YorksLad12]

Tbf, it took quite a bit of time to get to sectorisation! But just because something was done before, doesn't mean it is a bad idea now.

I agree. See also Rail Alphabet 2 and station signs!

 

[Meerkat]

So we need 25,600 different liveries

Is a choice between 1 and 25,600 then?

I do think that the ridiculous mish mash of liveries whilst good for the enthusiast is a bit of an embarrassment and does not help present a joined up network.

Why is it ridiculous, and who cares if it looks like a joined up network as long as they can buy tickets across the boundaries?
Will people not realise they are trains if they aren’t the same colour as the one at their local station?

 

[zwk500]

Is a choice between 1 and 25,600 then?

No, but I was making a rather exaggerated point that if you took your assertion that people would lump any train in the same livery as 'bad' if one train was, then you'd need a separate livery for every train.

Why is it ridiculous, and who cares if it looks like a joined up network as long as they can buy tickets across the boundaries?
Will people not realise they are trains if they aren’t the same colour as the one at their local station?

People will think 'that doesn't look like my usual train, so it must be going somewhere else'. It's about increasing the accessibility of the network to people who aren't interested in anything beyond the train they are catching.

 

[Meerkat]

No, but I was making a rather exaggerated point that if you took your assertion that people would lump any train in the same livery as 'bad' if one train was, then you'd need a separate livery for every train.

Thats not at all relevant as I deliberately said branding, not livery.
Currently Thameslink could be all over the news without doing significant damage to Avantis reputation. If the news is constantly telling a new story about GBR being bad then it will harm the reputation of all train services. Its also useful to be able to can a trashed brand and start afresh. It shouldn’t work, but it does seem to - the general public seem to have a rather exaggerated opinion of how much actually changes when franchises changed hands!

People will think 'that doesn't look like my usual train, so it must be going somewhere else'. It's about increasing the accessibility of the network to people who aren't interested in anything beyond the train they are catching.

Seriously?! Anyone that unsure about travelling will be checking the display that tells them it’s their train.

I can’t really see any positives in having a dull national corporate branding, apart from BR nostalgia that is probably more prevalent in those who don’t actually use the railways.

 

[irish_rail]

Thats not at all relevant as I deliberately said branding, not livery.
Currently Thameslink could be all over the news without doing significant damage to Avantis reputation. If the news is constantly telling a new story about GBR being bad then it will harm the reputation of all train services. Its also useful to be able to can a trashed brand and start afresh. It shouldn’t work, but it does seem to - the general public seem to have a rather exaggerated opinion of how much actually changes when franchises changed hands!

Seriously?! Anyone that unsure about travelling will be checking the display that tells them it’s their train.

I can’t really see any positives in having a dull national corporate branding, apart from BR nostalgia that is probably more prevalent in those who don’t actually use the railways.

Disagree. British Airways is seen as a quality brand the length and breadth of the nation. We can but hope one day GBR represents something similar, certainly on the intercity stuff.

 

[Meerkat]

Disagree. British Airways is seen as a quality brand the length and breadth of the nation. We can but hope one day GBR represents something similar, certainly on the intercity stuff.

Are they any more? And that’s one airline brand so actually proves my point if their reputation hasn’t been harmed by Ryanair’s antics.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I agree. A single uniform brand for all major long-distance trains, then with a common theme/template for regional and commuter trains, so that local areas can put a bit of 'flavour' onto them. But still recognisably part of the same organisation.

The uniform brand could be a theme/template though couldn't it? Same typeface, same layout of liveries, same logo etc. but with a regional 'flavour' acheived by one or maybe two colours being changed by each region? Just like Great Western Holding's initial livery looked like it was trying to do, the national INTERCITY logo was retained but changed to green along with the dark band around the windows. If ICWC had followed suit with the band being red and GNER with the band being blue then we wouldn't be far off.

 

[zwk500]

The uniform brand could be a theme/template though couldn't it? Same typeface, same layout of liveries, same logo etc. but with a regional 'flavour' acheived by one or maybe two colours being changed by each region? Just like Great Western Holding's initial livery looked like it was trying to do, the national INTERCITY logo was retained but changed to green along with the dark band around the windows. If ICWC had followed suit with the band being red and GNER with the band being blue then we wouldn't be far off.

It could be, indeed there's a very good argument for that. It depends how the liveries are used, and how services are organised.

 

[HSTEd]

We could always just paint the trains all over grey with a suitable contrast colours for the doors.

Grey will not show grime as easily as some options and will be almost offensively inoffensive!

 

[PTR 444]

Or what about doing what South West Trains executed very well and have a separate colour for each type of service:

White: Long-distance
Blue: Regional
Red: Metro & suburban

No short of a coincidence that those are the colours of the Union Jack, so would be a perfect fit for the GBR brand.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Or what about doing what South West Trains executed very well and have a separate colour for each type of service:

White: Long-distance
Blue: Regional
Red: Metro & suburban

No short of a coincidence that those are the colours of the Union Jack, so would be a perfect fit for the GBR brand.

Blue on SWT was outer-suburban and red was metro/inner-suburban. East Midlands Trains did use the blue livery for regional units though.

 

[Mike Machin]

As a short-term measure the re-brand for a number of the operators would be relatively easy as they already feature large amounts of a neutral base colour (light grey or white), with just the end portions or doors differentiated in a contrasting colour, for example SWR, Northern, Thameslink, Greater Anglia, c2c, TFW, Avanti West Coast, even LNER and XC.

All of these could be relatively quickly stripped of their existing branding graphics, and a new corporate theme devised, perhaps with a subtle single-colour nod to the union flag design, a bit like MINI have often done, using shades of a colour that could be used to identify that particular operator. The overall effect would be quick and easy to apply, would unify much of the network instantly, and could still allow for the regional differences.

The treatment of the union flag graphic would be very subtle and not in the least 'jingoistic', I envisage it having the feel of the short-lived Virgin 'Flowing Silk' motif, with just a hint of the flag design within the design, positioned at the ends of each unit.

SWR for example would simply have the graphic applied in the existing SWR blue, covering the existing blue area. The SWR graphics would be removed and replaced by something like GBR South West with the modified Double Arrow logo. Job done!

A similar approach would be applied to the stock used by other operators.

Admittedly GWR, Scotrail and the new EMR would prove more difficult, but again a subtle flowing Union Flag motif using the exiting green, blue and purple schemes could be applied - with the legend GBR Great Western, GBR Scotrail or GBR East Midlands etc.

Local printed material would pick-up on these theme colours, and I could see signing nationally reverting to black on white.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't see a problem with Union Flag based branding. I think British Airways does it both attractively and tastefully, there's no reason it shouldn't look as good as that.

 

[Meerkat]

I don't see a problem with Union Flag based branding. I think British Airways does it both attractively and tastefully, there's no reason it shouldn't look as good as that.

It’s fashionable in some circles to sneer at anything approaching patriotism, but usually only when we do it!
I just don’t see the gain over more local branding - it seems particularly ironic if anyone wants a unified national branding but for it not to be national branding!

 

[Rhydgaled]

Admittedly GWR, Scotrail and the new EMR would prove more difficult, but again a subtle flowing Union Flag motif using the exiting green, blue and purple schemes could be applied - with the legend GBR Great Western, GBR Scotrail or GBR East Midlands etc.

Aren't the GWR 5-car class 800s (and possibly the 9-car sets too, I can't remember if it is only the 802s that are painted) a big sticker over a base grey livery anyway? Just peel the sticker off (ideally leaving the dark green around the windows as a window band similar to the LNER Azumas but green) and you're there. The 150s, 153s (although I think they are supposed to be going off lease anyway) 166s and 165s I think should just stay all over green as a 'local' livery anyway.

 

[irish_rail]

Aren't the GWR 5-car class 800s (and possibly the 9-car sets too, I can't remember if it is only the 802s that are painted) a big sticker over a base grey livery anyway? Just peel the sticker off (ideally leaving the dark green around the windows as a window band similar to the LNER Azumas but green) and you're there. The 150s, 153s (although I think they are supposed to be going off lease anyway) 166s and 165s I think should just stay all over green as a 'local' livery anyway.

Just the 36 5 car 800s that are vinyled, everything else is painted.

 

[Diedinium]

Sorry for the late reply to this thread, but I made this mock "poster" for a design GBR could use the other month (I just put BR on it because I just prefer that name, even if it's not really what they would be using...)

I'm entirely new to this forum, so apologies in advance if this isn't appropriate to this thread, thought you guys might find this interesting though.

I went for the idea of this being the "Wales & Western" sub-brand/division of GBR as well, and yes, I've seen in the other posts in this thread and get that the regional colours are likely to persist from the various brands currently in use... but one is allowed to fantasise, right?

I would love if the entire country had one unified branding for all trains (except metros of course), regardless of how unrealistic that would be due to certain regions being... enthusiastic... about their differences.

Interested to hear what you guys think!

 

[Scotrail314209]

Sorry for the late reply to this thread, but I made this mock "poster" for a design GBR could use the other month (I just put BR on it because I just prefer that name, even if it's not really what they would be using...)

I'm entirely new to this forum, so apologies in advance if this isn't appropriate to this thread, thought you guys might find this interesting though.

I went for the idea of this being the "Wales & Western" sub-brand/division of GBR as well, and yes, I've seen in the other posts in this thread and get that the regional colours are likely to persist from the various brands currently in use... but one is allowed to fantasise, right?

I would love if the entire country had one unified branding for all trains (except metros of course), regardless of how unrealistic that would be due to certain regions being... enthusiastic... about their differences.

Interested to hear what you guys think!

View attachment 104894

I do like the concept of the livery, but I think on the front coach it looks a bit too busy with the big logo and the text.

Maybe shrink the logo down a tad to make it look less cluttered

 

[Diedinium]

I do like the concept of the livery, but I think on the front coach it looks a bit too busy with the big logo and the text.

Maybe shrink the logo down a tad to make it look less cluttered

Thank you, and yeah, you're right - it probably would look nicer with a smaller logo instead which isn't clipped by the windows/doors etc

I went with the idea of sticking the massive logo there because I was reading an article Gerry Barney was quoted in (designer of original BR logo) - he said some of his initial designs/ideas had the logo plastered all over the place on the train liveries, so this is my kind of homage to that, by making the logo part of the main colour/pattern rather than just a small icon on part of the train.

Are there any other threads that might appreciate this by the way? If so I might share it there as well.

 

[LLivery]

Thank you, and yeah, you're right - it probably would look nicer with a smaller logo instead which isn't clipped by the windows/doors etc

I went with the idea of sticking the massive logo there because I was reading an article Gerry Barney was quoted in (designer of original BR logo) - he said some of his initial designs/ideas had the logo plastered all over the place on the train liveries, so this is my kind of homage to that, by making the logo part of the main colour/pattern rather than just a small icon on part of the train.

Are there any other threads that might appreciate this by the way? If so I might share it there as well.

The white, red and grey colours are quite nice.

For the logo, I'd have a small double arrow with 'GBR' above a window, similar to what we had with Midland Main Line's original livery. I'd also have a medium sized double arrow on the blank space where the toilets/other facilities mean there's no window, unless there's a nameplate.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I like the idea, but I don't like the livery, I'm afraid. It is overbranded in a typical FirstGroup manner (you don't want the logo on a vehicle more than once, really) and it also seems a bit stark yet monochrome. I quite like the TfW and Abellio red based liveries, that said.

I think Chiltern demonstrates that a livery based on both colours of the Union Flag works well and so I would add some blue.

 

[LUYMun]

Sorry for the late reply to this thread, but I made this mock "poster" for a design GBR could use the other month (I just put BR on it because I just prefer that name, even if it's not really what they would be using...)

I'm entirely new to this forum, so apologies in advance if this isn't appropriate to this thread, thought you guys might find this interesting though.

I went for the idea of this being the "Wales & Western" sub-brand/division of GBR as well, and yes, I've seen in the other posts in this thread and get that the regional colours are likely to persist from the various brands currently in use... but one is allowed to fantasise, right?

I would love if the entire country had one unified branding for all trains (except metros of course), regardless of how unrealistic that would be due to certain regions being... enthusiastic... about their differences.

Interested to hear what you guys think!

View attachment 104894

Although an interesting concept at first, the white gap, particularly where there is opportunity for a skirt, leaves room for dirt and dust, so the trains would look unkempt after a while in service. The two-tone grey make the units look drab and the front coaches look cluttered. In my opinion the livery could be more stylish and appealing, yet prevents unintentional inconveniences, such the 'blood and custard' livery on BR's coaches.

 

[Fyldeboy]

Sorry for the late reply to this thread, but I made this mock "poster" for a design GBR could use the other month (I just put BR on it because I just prefer that name, even if it's not really what they would be using...)

I'm entirely new to this forum, so apologies in advance if this isn't appropriate to this thread, thought you guys might find this interesting though.

I went for the idea of this being the "Wales & Western" sub-brand/division of GBR as well, and yes, I've seen in the other posts in this thread and get that the regional colours are likely to persist from the various brands currently in use... but one is allowed to fantasise, right?

I would love if the entire country had one unified branding for all trains (except metros of course), regardless of how unrealistic that would be due to certain regions being... enthusiastic... about their differences.

Interested to hear what you guys think!

Any reason why you have gone for 'British Rail' rather than 'Great British Railways'. I agree BR probably looks better - but it is going to be GBR. Maybe a compromise - 'GB Railways'

 

[Mat17]

I was hoping they'd go for blue, blue's a good railway colour.

 

[Diedinium]

Any reason why you have gone for 'British Rail' rather than 'Great British Railways'. I agree BR probably looks better - but it is going to be GBR. Maybe a compromise - 'GB Railways'

I did that just because I personally prefer BR, even if that's not what it's going to be called.

GB Railways is good though!

Although an interesting concept at first, the white gap, particularly where there is opportunity for a skirt, leaves room for dirt and dust, so the trains would look unkempt after a while in service. The two-tone grey make the units look drab and the front coaches look cluttered. In my opinion the livery could be more stylish and appealing, yet prevents unintentional inconveniences, such the 'blood and custard' livery on BR's coaches.

Nice points, didn't really think about the practical aspect of how the white would easily show any dirt...

Others have said about the front coach looking too busy as well, would definitely do some changes if I went back and edited it.

 

[365 Networker]

How about this logo -

Search for a trade mark - Intellectual Property Office (ipo.gov.uk)
The renewal date is November 2027, so it's possible.

Looks like I was right:-

Railway 'double arrow' symbol is set for a patriotic makeover

The new red, white and blue logo is for the launch of Great British Railways, which will oversee the train system. The public body will take over from Network Rail by the end of 2023.

www.dailymail.co.uk