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Great Northern and Thameslink May 18 service changes

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MikeWM

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I mean in some respects it's better... but I can't imagine the good people of Peterborough are going to be happy that just quite so many of their trains to London are being replaced with Thameslink trains to Ipswich? Certainly great news if you are commuting to Ipswich; currently you're looking at a 1h40m journey time and the earliest arrival is 0946, but they're now looking at 5 trains arriving before 8am and journeys of less than 75m.

I don't know why they haven't been boasting about this. It must be the best kept secret since Eurostar Link.

:) :) Err, yes. I did say I only had a 'quick glance'! Anyway, it makes perfect sense if Ipswich co-locates with Finsbury Park, which I'm sure we were all expecting to have occurred by next week... (!)

Looks like they've tried to put Peterborough-London trains into table 17 and Kings Lynn/Ely-London trains into table 25. Probably would have been better to keep them separate, as before :)
 
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MikeWM

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If you'd asked me in isolation, I'd have agreed with you about the bikes. And I'd even have gone as far as saying that the 08:58 is so busy (as are the previous trains) that it should be made peak, not off-peak. But in this instance, given that:
  • The consultation timetables said that it would remain off-peak, so anybody now affected by the last-minute off-peak to peak change has had no chance to comment.
  • The consultation timetables said that it would depart Ely at 08:46 (allowing bikes), not 08:45 (not allowing bikes), so anybody now affected by the last-minute change to ban bikes has had no chance to comment.
  • The timing of the train only bans bikes from Ely, and not from Waterbeach or Cambridge North (where it will be even busier than it is at Ely), which is grossly unfair to cyclists from Ely.
...then I have to agree with the petition.

Well, yes, fair enough. My opinions about the differences between the consultation and the actuality for Ely services have already been aired up-thread, but sufficient to say I'm not at all happy about them either.

I've always wondered about the overcrowding on all trains from Ely to Cambridge between the current 08:26 and 08:58 (inclusive), particularly as the route is very well served until 08:58, and then there's a half-hour gap in the timetable. Is there no scope for slotting an extra shuttle running from Ely to Cambridge only sometime between (the current) 08:58 and 09:28 (or the 08:45 and 09:17 in the new timetable)? They could have even moved the current 08:58 to 08:45 and made it peak (giving more peak capacity), and added in an extra off-peak shuttle sometime just after 09:00 (keeping the off-peak commuters happy).

That would be the kind of sensible thinking that apparently GTR is incapable of. One of the 365s now rusting away in Ely sidings might be sensibly used on such a service, one might think. They could improve the irritatingly-sparse Sunday morning services in a similar way while they were at it......

I particularly worry about what will happen to Greater Anglia's peak 08:38 from Ely to Cambridge in the new timetable. Given that it allows bikes (Greater Anglia's bike restriction is based on arriving into Cambridge, not departing Ely, before 08:45), then many bike commuters who use the current 08:58, and who will now be forced to buy a season ticket anyway, because of the Y4/B3 off-peak timing change, will probably switch to that train. And add in the fact that Greater Anglia are introducing cheaper "Greater Anglia only" fares on the Ely to Cambridge route, and there could well be capacity problems on that train.

Agreed, it is already a busy train, though a little less so than the 8.58 in my experience. Though the last time I took the 8.38, two students with full-size bikes decided to push on into the vestibule at the last moment, one of which gave me a delightful large bruise as he decided to collide it into my leg. So I'm not convinced that one needs any more bicycles, either, and there isn't a great deal of scope for fitting in more passengers.
 

mongoose

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Real Time Trains shows that all Cambridge slows and WGC-Kings Cross services are slated to be 700s. Will this actually be the case?
 

bramling

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Real Time Trains shows that all Cambridge slows and WGC-Kings Cross services are slated to be 700s. Will this actually be the case?

Yes. All 700/0s, except on Sundays when a handful of services turn up 387s, 4 cars in a few cases mainly at the extremes of the day. There are two 700/1s which also stop at Welwyn, mainly aimed at staff.

Having said that, there’s no reason 387s couldn’t substitute as far as I can see. 365s couldn’t due to lacking SDO, although they could work singly or if certain stops were omitted.
 

jon0844

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Yes. All 700/0s, except on Sundays when a handful of services turn up 387s, 4 cars in a few cases mainly at the extremes of the day. There are two 700/1s which also stop at Welwyn, mainly aimed at staff.

Having said that, there’s no reason 387s couldn’t substitute as far as I can see. 365s couldn’t due to lacking SDO, although they could work singly or if certain stops were omitted.

A 365 (x2) substituted a 700 this morning, but I am not expecting to see any 365s from next week at Welwyn Garden City. Just as there's the token Horsham service from next week (Tuesday, as Monday's is replaced with a KGX service) there's also a token Peterborough train after midnight.
 

Failed Unit

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A 365 (x2) substituted a 700 this morning, but I am not expecting to see any 365s from next week at Welwyn Garden City. Just as there's the token Horsham service from next week (Tuesday, as Monday's is replaced with a KGX service) there's also a token Peterborough train after midnight.

Is there any possibility of 365s operating the WGC - London KX services? Or are the platforms too short at Hadley wood (Southbound) and New Barnet (Northbound).

Time for a sweep stake for when the timetable will collapse for the first time. My prediction is Tuesday.

Considering great northerner performance at the moment. Definitely have something go wrong week 1. Thursday is good. Meet the manager day.
 

wipeout

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Is there any possibility of 365s operating the WGC - London KX services? Or are the platforms too short at Hadley wood (Southbound) and New Barnet (Northbound).

Lots more people more knowledgeable than me on here, but isn't the reason for the current 1758 from KX not stopping at New Barnet that the platforms are too short (Northbound)? So I doubt that 365s can be used.
 

sarahj

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There may be some missing TL trains for the first week or so. Info to follow (somehow)
 

bramling

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Is there any possibility of 365s operating the WGC - London KX services? Or are the platforms too short at Hadley wood (Southbound) and New Barnet (Northbound).

Time for a sweep stake for when the timetable will collapse for the first time. My prediction is Tuesday.

Considering great northerner performance at the moment. Definitely have something go wrong week 1. Thursday is good. Meet the manager day.

It won’t be readily possible to put 2x365 on the Welwyn services as the diagrams interwork with the Cambridge / Cambridge North service. So it would be a case of 1x365, 387s, or missing out the three short platform stations where applicable.

As to bets on when it will all go up the wall, since many of the Thameslink Programme’s promised deliverables have in fact failed to be delivered this May due to the “phasing”, there’s only so much that can actually go wrong. Punctuality will still take a hit at times for sure, and I’d be worrying if reliant on the timekeeping of the Peterborough Horsham service.

I’m glad I’m in the middle of 7 weeks annual leave, so won’t be sampling things on a daily basis for a while. I’m glad I still have the option to use 365 services most of the time, but I’ve already ditched any form of season ticket, and the car is poised and ready to take over.
 

Failed Unit

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More areas unhappy about the cutbacks getting implemented next week. Still very surprised the local press in Welwyn / Hatfield hasn't jumped on this yet, maybe next week when it is real.

A new timetable that will affect commuters using Hertford North could potentially be 'disastrous', the RMT has warned.

Govia Thameslink Railway (GTR) will roll out the timetable across its network on Sunday (May 20), which includes Great Northern services to and from Hertford North.

The company is arguing that the changes will allow more trains to run, but commuters, politicians and the RMT has said that it could have negative consquences.

Conservative MP for Hertford and Stortford, Mark Prisk, condemned the changes in April, and called on GTR to justify its proposals to reduce the number of morning rush hour services from Hertford North from five to just three.

He said: "A lot of people of the Hertford Loop line have rightly complained about the decline in service we’re now going to get under the May timetable.

"I’ve looked at that timetable and it’s clear to me that the service will get worse, not better, if they go ahead as planned.

"So, I’ve written to the Chief Executive Charles Horton to express my concern and request an explanation as to why it is they’re reducing our service.

"We were made quite clear promises, both about the service and the quality of the rolling stock. It seems to me that they’re not being upheld.

"I’m challenging him to explain why his company is not doing what they promised."
Concerns about the changes have also been voiced from the RMT, which claims that the move would place massive strain on infrastructure and accused GTR of 'winging' the timetable.

RMT general secretary Mick Cash said: "The planned new timetable on GTR will place massive additional strains on infrastructure and staffing levels that are already struggling to cope with current capacity.

"The company are winging it with potentially disastrous consequences. RMT has warned repeatedly about the pressure on the central core through the middle of London which is crucial to the delivery of these plans."

GTR claims that the changes it has made overall will allow more than another 50,000 people at peak times into London and that users would benefit from enhanced frequency, reliability and connectivity.
Charles Horton, GTR Chief Executive, said: “We are introducing the biggest ever change to our rail timetables to significantly boost capacity on the UK’s most congested network. We don’t want passengers to get caught out and so we strongly advise them to look up the times of their trains as they will find that from 20 May each and every one of them has changed.

“Due to the sheer scale of the changes, we will have to redeploy a large number of trains and crews and services may not run at normal times during the introductory phase, although the impact on peak time services during the transition will be minimal.

“Introduction of the new timetables is a major milestone in the delivery of RailPlan 20/20, our programme to modernise rail services, taking advantage of the new infrastructure and trains provided by the Government’s £7bn Thameslink Programme.”
https://www.hertfordshiremercury.co...great-northern-timetable-introduction-1573844
 

bramling

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More areas unhappy about the cutbacks getting implemented next week. Still very surprised the local press in Welwyn / Hatfield hasn't jumped on this yet, maybe next week when it is real.


https://www.hertfordshiremercury.co...great-northern-timetable-introduction-1573844

I think a lot of people are still unaware of the changes coming in. Welwyn of course doesn’t yet see much change on the surface - apart from the 700s which many Welwyn commuters likely won’t have experienced (suffered) yet.

A lot will depend on performance and whether people stand more chance of getting a seat. We know performance will be bad, especially if the full envisaged Thameslink service comes to fruition. As to getting seats we will have to see how things settle down. There are certainly more seats arriving into London in the morning, but not as many as there could be of things were being done differently.

Hertford has a lot to be unhappy about with the loss of train services to stevenage potentially in December.
 

Failed Unit

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I think a lot of people are still unaware of the changes coming in. Welwyn of course doesn’t yet see much change on the surface - apart from the 700s which many Welwyn commuters likely won’t have experienced (suffered) yet.

A lot will depend on performance and whether people stand more chance of getting a seat. We know performance will be bad, especially if the full envisaged Thameslink service comes to fruition. As to getting seats we will have to see how things settle down. There are certainly more seats arriving into London in the morning, but not as many as there could be of things were being done differently.

Hertford has a lot to be unhappy about with the loss of train services to stevenage potentially in December.

Yeah that is the big unknown, if the other services now pick up the majority of people from the North then I think that WGC will be happy overall. But if the trains come in full with people from Hitchin, Stevenage etc (but they have less seats) then they will be very unhappy.

Which ultimately comes down to if people from Hitchin and Stevenage can get a seat, if they can why bother with the slows, if they can't then everyone is unhappy.

As for the timetable collapse, considering we already have one on average once a week. (The signal failure at Digswell the most recent) I guess we won't be long before we see how they respond to that. I agree with the RMT - absolutely no space for anything to be out of place. Even a 3 minute delay on a Moorgate - WGC service starts putting a real risk of problems of the viaduct as the cambridge service is right behind it at Hatfield.
 

bramling

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Yeah that is the big unknown, if the other services now pick up the majority of people from the North then I think that WGC will be happy overall. But if the trains come in full with people from Hitchin, Stevenage etc (but they have less seats) then they will be very unhappy.

Which ultimately comes down to if people from Hitchin and Stevenage can get a seat, if they can why bother with the slows, if they can't then everyone is unhappy.

As for the timetable collapse, considering we already have one on average once a week. (The signal failure at Digswell the most recent) I guess we won't be long before we see how they respond to that. I agree with the RMT - absolutely no space for anything to be out of place. Even a 3 minute delay on a Moorgate - WGC service starts putting a real risk of problems of the viaduct as the cambridge service is right behind it at Hatfield.

Yep playing Simsig with the new timetable shows the fragility of it. Put in just a bit of late running and before long there’s stuff running around 45-60 late. That simply doesn’t happen with the current timetable. Many of the 313 services don’t have much turnaround at either end - so either skip stopping (not guaranteed to work if there’s another stopping train in front) or reversing at Drayton Park are recovery options.

If I were at home I’d post some screenshots of what it looks like at times. Not pretty around Welwyn, around Hitchin and on the Cambridge branch. The class 9 reporting numbers are pretty useless in practice for various reasons. They will be even more useless in a couple of years when there’s potentially 10 to 15 of them on the panel at the same time.
 

Failed Unit

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What is the option going North? Correct me if I am wrong that WGC is the only place they can realisitically turn then local service. I have seen them shut trains from platform 3/4 to platform 1 but I don't see how that helps uniess the train in question had a long layover as once it is on the bridge it clear of the platform anyway.

But even looking at real times, you can see WGC and Finsbury Park are not pretty.

As an example
1742 (Ex London Kings Cross terminates platform 3) - This most then go to the sidings
1752 (Ex Moorgate service terminates 4)
1755 (London - Cambridge services - platform 3)
1758 (service leaves to Moorgate from 4)
1800 (service from carridge sidings - platform 3 to head to London)
1807 (Ex Moorgate service - platform 4)

So a 5 minute delay on the Moorgate service and things are soon snowballing
 

jon0844

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What is the option going North? Correct me if I am wrong that WGC is the only place they can realisitically turn then local service. I have seen them shut trains from platform 3/4 to platform 1 but I don't see how that helps uniess the train in question had a long layover as once it is on the bridge it clear of the platform anyway.

But even looking at real times, you can see WGC and Finsbury Park are not pretty.

As an example
1742 (Ex London Kings Cross terminates platform 3) - This most then go to the sidings
1752 (Ex Moorgate service terminates 4)
1755 (London - Cambridge services - platform 3)
1758 (service leaves to Moorgate from 4)
1800 (service from carridge sidings - platform 3 to head to London)
1807 (Ex Moorgate service - platform 4)

So a 5 minute delay on the Moorgate service and things are soon snowballing

In the daytime on Monday-Saturday, every second Moorgate arrival at WGC shunts to platform 1. There's a lot of scope for delays if the train comes in late or someone on the train is fast asleep and takes ages to get off (yes, it can happen in the middle of the day!).

Sunday doesn't see any of this, so should be the 'safest' day. Obviously due to a LOT fewer services around the Moorgate trains.

I really do wonder if people will just start to use the slows because they run more frequently, even with the longer journey time. For many of them, you'll arrive quicker than waiting for the next King's Cross train - but I know I've usually preferred to wait and not do almost 20 stops.
 

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I think they will. To connect with the few trains actually going into the core using the slow and changing at Finsbury Park is what is suggested on the journey planners. Considering at the moment the 313s are more comfortable and you have a better chance of a seat I think more will use them.
 

mongoose

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In the daytime on Monday-Saturday, every second Moorgate arrival at WGC shunts to platform 1. There's a lot of scope for delays if the train comes in late or someone on the train is fast asleep and takes ages to get off (yes, it can happen in the middle of the day!).

Sunday doesn't see any of this, so should be the 'safest' day. Obviously due to a LOT fewer services around the Moorgate trains.

I really do wonder if people will just start to use the slows because they run more frequently, even with the longer journey time. For many of them, you'll arrive quicker than waiting for the next King's Cross train - but I know I've usually preferred to wait and not do almost 20 stops.

I switched from the current 0742 WGC-King's Cross to the 0730 Moorgate a year ago because I was fed up with struggling to get on the Moorgate service when changing at Finsbury Park. If there is no benefit for Moorgate passengers in getting the faster service and switching then I think you will see an increase in passengers doing this and when the 717s arrive that will result in fewer seats available south of Potters Bar on these trains.
 

JonathanH

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Brighton to Cambridge run Sunday?

No, it is Gatwick to Cambridge via Redhill on a Sunday (giving Redhill its only non-stop trains to East Croydon in the week).

I expect they will be empty south of London since at the weekend Redhill passengers tend to only be interested in trains to Victoria and there is a Victoria train from the Arun Valley a few minutes before.
 

tsr

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One of the more ridiculous things about the timetable recast is that the Redhill area still has a completely different timetable on Sundays compared to the rest of the week - not just timings or frequencies, which will regularly be the case across the whole country - but the variety of destinations is completely different and in fact vastly improved!

I would go so far as to say that the variety of destinations during Sunday daytimes at Redhill has probably the best choice seen for years, and the frequency isn’t too shoddy either. Duplicating this across the whole week would probably cure a lot of ills. But there we go.
 

Class 466

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Expect most of the Kentish Town to Plumstead service planned for tomorrow to be cancelled due to lack of drivers...
 

JonathanH

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One of the more ridiculous things about the timetable recast is that the Redhill area still has a completely different timetable on Sundays compared to the rest of the week - not just timings or frequencies, which will regularly be the case across the whole country - but the variety of destinations is completely different and in fact vastly improved!

I would go so far as to say that the variety of destinations during Sunday daytimes at Redhill has probably the best choice seen for years, and the frequency isn’t too shoddy either. Duplicating this across the whole week would probably cure a lot of ills. But there we go.

Yes, I agree - 6tph on Sunday from Redhill to virtually everywhere possible (other than a certain South coast seaside resort that the locals are fixated about having direct trains to) with better timings than on a weekday is generous provision. I hope the people in Redhill make use of it.

I hope that GTR don't 'improve' it to be the same as weekdays. However I also wonder about engineering work on the network affecting the frequency at the weekend - e.g. if there is two track railway between Bedford and London, do they simply cancel the Bedford to Gatwick throughout?
 

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...aaand I hear the Thameslink depot at Three Bridges has just run out of space! :lol:

The fully rolled-out implementation of the new timetable, with all the stock in the right places, won't come soon enough for the controllers in charge of this sort of stuff, let alone passengers!
 

jon0844

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jon0844

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Not a good start to the day with a warning of alterations and cancellations until the end of service today (shortage of drivers, but marked as an operational incident).

Lots of cancelled Cambridge and Moorgate trains this morning.
 

Class 466

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As forecasted, the entire Plumstead - Kentish Town service is cancelled, most of the Cambridge - Gatwick and Peterborough- Horsham services are also cancelled! Way to go! :rolleyes:
 
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