Great Northern Fleet - 379s

[SteveU821]

The extra Peterborough is a 700/0, at least to begin with. It’s probably reasonably safe to say this is likely to be a likely 379 diagram when they start.

One presumes it is lack of stock preventing the second Peterborough return service, as that seems to have died a death.

No GN driver is trained on 379’s as it stands. I don’t think they’ll be in service until 2025 either.

 

[Farigiraf]

Do we know whether Great Northern's dreaded seats will be fitted into the 379s, or if it'll remain with the Greater Anglia ones? IMO Greater Anglia have some of the best standard class seats so this would be quite the downgrade.

 

[Energy]

Do we know whether Great Northern's dreaded seats will be fitted into the 379s, or if it'll remain with the Greater Anglia ones? IMO Greater Anglia have some of the best standard class seats so this would be quite the downgrade.

No announcement has been made on the seats.

The seat frames do not need changing so it would be odd to spend money changing them. How extensive the work done to them will depend on whether mold is found in them from storage. If so then I'd expect new cushions, seat coverings, and maybe carpets. First class is overprovisioned but I'm doubtful that this would be fixed.

 

[Class 466]

Pretty sure I saw unbranded 387201 on Lovers walk this morning. All that's on the side it the small Gatwick express branding, from where it said on hire from GX.
Has the cascade started.

Good riddance to that silly “Great Northern operated by Gatwick Express” branding applied during the Pandemic that made no sense.

 

[Fincra5]

No GN driver is trained on 379’s as it stands. I don’t think they’ll be in service until 2025 either.

What makes you think that?

 

[jon0844]

The conversion course will be quick, but there are obviously a lot of other things to be done too.

And with regards to questions about the seating; it was stated early on by the TOC that they're going to add the relevant signs and posters, and an exterior branding, and that's it.

There might need to be new seat covers (or a very heavy deep clean) given the mould, but they aren't going to change the seats themselves as that's a major job (and a major cost).

Once there are units 'signed off' then I would expect a gradual introduction, with no big fanfare to the general public.

 

[bramling]

The conversion course will be quick, but there are obviously a lot of other things to be done too.

And with regards to questions about the seating; it was stated early on by the TOC that they're going to add the relevant signs and posters, and an exterior branding, and that's it.

There might need to be new seat covers (or a very heavy deep clean) given the mould, but they aren't going to change the seats themselves as that's a major job (and a major cost).

Once there are units 'signed off' then I would expect a gradual introduction, with no big fanfare to the general public.

Yeah can’t see any need for much publicity. The only thing the average passenger is going to notice is the different seats, and presumably the position of 1st.

GTR can hardly make a thing of “more comfortable seats” as it then calls into question the quality of both the 387s and 700s!

More interestingly will be to what extent GN users will see service enhancements as a result. The three elements of the outer-suburban service which haven’t returned post-Covid are
* peak Baldock extras
* the full extent of peak Peterborough extras
* late-evening Peterborough extras

 

[JonathanH]

GTR can hardly make a thing of “more comfortable seats” as it then calls into question the quality of both the 387s and 700s!

It won't want to draw attention to the reduction of capacity.

 

[Failed Unit]

It won't want to draw attention to the reduction of capacity.

I thought in terms of seats, The 387s had the most, then the 379s (because of the first class) with the 700s with the least amount of seating (but clearly the best crush load)

 

[357]

No GN driver is trained on 379’s as it stands. I don’t think they’ll be in service until 2025 either.

It shouldn't take too long. The 357 to 387 conversion was 2 days, however we finished by lunchtime both days so it could have been one day in reality.

 

[JonathanH]

I thought in terms of seats, The 387s had the most, then the 379s (because of the first class) with the 700s with the least amount of seating (but clearly the best crush load)

Yes
8-387 44F 402S
8-379 40F 378S
8-700 26F 390S (assuming rear area declassified)

Assuming a full train, 28 extra people standing on a 379 formed train than a 387 formed train.

 

[Failed Unit]

Be interesting what the passengers think, as the 379 will have a serious over provision in first class. (Although from what I understand better seats throughout)

It isn’t as others have said they can promote the seating to get more 1st class ticket Revenue when you can’t be certain what time of train you will be getting.
Thank you for the detail

 

[bramling]

Yes
8-387 44F 402S
8-379 40F 378S
8-700 26F 390S (assuming rear area declassified)

Assuming a full train, 28 extra people standing on a 379 formed train than a 387 formed train.

Gosh quite disfavourable to 8/365 which I believe added up to 478 in standard.

 

[Kite159]

This is when GN get 379s with the nicer first class area... Only for the DfT to decide to permanently axe FC using the same reasoning as South Eastern & London Northwestern and spinning it as giving extra seats

 

[JonathanH]

Gosh quite disfavourable to 8/365 which I believe added up to 478 in standard.

Yes, 8-365 was 48F 480S and 8-317 was 44F 540S (for the GN units).

It is why we shouldn't consider a train full these days until there are a substantial number of people standing if we are trying to compare to capacity in the BR days.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

This is when GN get 379s with the nicer first class area... Only for the DfT to decide to permanently axe FC using the same reasoning as South Eastern & London Northwestern and spinning it as giving extra seats

Unless your going to enforce it then there isn't much point to it although a 379 will provide a much nicer environment for the longer workings to Ely/Kings Lynn which must help generate return traffic from ad hoc users.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Only for the DfT to decide to permanently axe FC using the same reasoning as South Eastern & London Northwestern and spinning it as giving extra seats

One can hope.

 

[Sutton in Ant]

I would like to ask if the 379s that returned to Worksop will be returning back to Hornsey any time soon.

 

[Class455]

Seen a report elsewhere that ex GWR 387172 is currently at Stewarts Lane. I would suspect there's a strong chance this has now transferred to Southern

 

[03_179]

172 is on GN
104 is at Stewarts Lane

 

[The exile]

Yes, 8-365 was 48F 480S and 8-317 was 44F 540S (for the GN units).

It is why we shouldn't consider a train full these days until there are a substantial number of people standing if we are trying to compare to capacity in the BR days.

Other than the fact that even when there is a substantial number standing there are probably still unoccupied seats - and the more that are in 3+2 formation, the higher that number is likely to be.

 

[Doomotron]

Seen a report elsewhere that ex GWR 387172 is currently at Stewarts Lane. I would suspect there's a strong chance this has now transferred to Southern

Just to confirm, do you mean it has transferred from GWR or Great Northern? I am not aware of the unit numbers of the ex-GWR 387s that are already with GTR.

 

[JN114]

I am not aware of the unit numbers of the ex-GWR 387s that are already with GTR.

172, 173 and 174 are the 3 ex-GW ones

 

[JonathanH]

Other than the fact that even when there is a substantial number standing there are probably still unoccupied seats - and the more that are in 3+2 formation, the higher that number is likely to be.

That doesn't change my point, which is that on modern train layouts, a substantial number of people should be standing before a train is considered full, and that 379s offer less seated capacity than previous rolling stock.

Anyway, the idea that no one sits in the middle seat on a set of 3 seats does get a bit exaggerated on this forum. I agree that some will stand before using the middle seat but it doesn't mean they don't ever get used. The modern trend towards 2+2 and more room for standees is obviously designed to result in more people standing, not for fewer people to travel.

 

[yorkie]

That doesn't change my point, which is that on modern train layouts, a substantial number of people should be standing before a train is considered full, and that 379s offer less seated capacity than previous rolling stock.

Anyway, the idea that no one sits in the middle seat on a set of 3 seats does get a bit exaggerated on this forum. I agree that some will stand before using the middle seat but it doesn't mean they don't ever get used. The modern trend towards 2+2 and more room for standees is obviously designed to result in more people standing, not for fewer people to travel.

No-one says they don't 'ever' get used, but they are deeply unpopular; many people will choose to stand and modern trains tend not to have such seating (and rightly so).

I can fit within the profile of such seats, but I do not like my space being encroached, and unfortunately many people just aren't able to fully fit within the space.

 

[Magdalia]

No-one says they don't 'ever' get used, but they are deeply unpopular;

Amongst leisure travellers maybe. Commuters used to crushes in the tube don't see 3+2 seating as an issue. In my experience football fans, another group used to crowds, also fill up 3+2 seating.

modern trains tend not to have such seating

Class 720s are the obvious exception to that, and in response to feedback from commuters.

 

[bramling]

Amongst leisure travellers maybe. Commuters used to crushes in the tube don't see 3+2 seating as an issue. In my experience football fans, another group used to crowds, also fill up 3+2 seating.

Think it very much depends on individual circumstances.

If you’re one of the hundred or so people who no longer gets a seat when your train changes from 8/317 to 8/379 then you probably prefer 3+2, especially if the journey is long enough that you don’t want to stand.

Everyone else probably prefers 2+2, though 3+2 can be more spacious on medium-loaded trains as it means less chance of having to sit directly next to, or opposite, someone.

So it’s a lot more nuanced than just “people don’t like 3+2”.

Certainly in GN days on 317s and 321s the middle seats were well used. Sure they were the last to fill, and *some* people chose to stand in preference, but the idea that they went unused is something of a myth.

The 365 seemed to provide a decent compromise - excellent 2+2 seating complete with good amounts of usable standing space, without the seating capacity suffering as badly as 387s or 379s. And worth remembering that the standing accommodation on the Electrostars isn’t great either, in particular the narrow aisles.

 

[jon0844]

Boarding at Hatfield, I'd sooner have a 700 turn up and I stand for 20-25 minutes with quite a bit of personal space - than a cramped 387.

However, as you leave the peak then a 387 is luxury. You'll likely have a choice of tables to sit, and it's more cosy than first class on a 700. (To keep on topic, first class on a 379 will be better still but thus far, we have to assume first class won't be declassified).

The 720s are IMO awful at all times. The aisles are ridiculously narrow and I have zero clue how anyone can get off a busy train once inside if they're not going all the way to the end of the line. I assume people knowing that just block the vestibules and refuse to move down, which is the usual problem for all trains and why over the years they've sought to make wider aisles and larger vestibules.

Basically, if you're not going to Tottenham Hale or Liverpool Street you're screwed.

I have no idea if GA commuters prefer the new trains over the 379s, but my memory suggests they preferred 379s over 317s.

 

[Mikey C]

I have no idea if GA commuters prefer the new trains over the 379s, but my memory suggests they preferred 379s over 317s.

That's hardly a surprise, a modern comfortable train rather than an 1980s Mk 3 EMU!

Amongst leisure travellers maybe. Commuters used to crushes in the tube don't see 3+2 seating as an issue. In my experience football fans, another group used to crowds, also fill up 3+2 seating.

Correct, the Networkers middle seats are well used by both groups. Families with children too.

 

[Magdalia]

I have no idea if GA commuters prefer the new trains over the 379s, but my memory suggests they preferred 379s over 317s.

Only a small proportion of GA commuters ever experienced class 379s. Most of their short life the class 379s only worked the Stansted Express and the peak hour fast trains between Liverpool Street and the Fens. On the Cambridge line in the peaks, most stations only saw class 379s passing through without stopping. In particular they haven't been used on crowded commuter trains with frequent stops.