Great Northern Fleet - 379s

[bramling]

Could the 350's play a part in providing enough stock for all parts of the network? I am another on that doesn't see anything wrong with the networkers that a refurbishment wouldn't cure. Mass cascades are high risk, when you have lost the good will of your staff. I suspect the main reason that GTR haven't restored Moorgate - Hertford / WGC to 15 minutes is more to do with that they can't reliably resource it rather then lack of demand. We have alll said we would rather have a service every 30 minutes we can rely on, then one that should run every 15 minutes but is frequently cancelled.

It does seem at times like the industry / DFT has a vendetta against Networkers. Successive south eastern franchises have done little with the 465 fleets, whilst we all know what happened to the excellent 365s.

We have gone from a reasonably well structured setup in 2019 across the franchises to what is increasingly becoming a mess, with stock now to-ing and fro-ing around quite aimlessly. Then we wonder why timetables and reliability are poor relative to 2019.

It seems we just have to wait and see what happens on GN. Looks like the 379s will come, the question is more what happens with the 387s, and to what extent 700s play a part in all this.

 

[Failed Unit]

In fairness, one would potentially be inclined to suggest that 37 350/2s would be perfect on the GN if they could have a slight refurb, with a bit of extra luggage space for some of the longer-distance flows, and with First Class being available anyway. Oh, and they're Siemens, and Hornsey is a Siemens depot. Oh, again, and they can do 110 can't they?

But that is definitely speculative...

Absolutely, but I would be amazed if the conversations are not going on. If I was the ROSCO owning them I would be knocking on DfTs door. If they ignore you knocking then you are no worse off.

In this Crazy world, really Kings Cross shouldn't see any 700s, as they are happy on the 3rd rail send them South of the river and leave Kings Cross - Cambridge / Peterborough etc to AC only units. If they do insist on runing the 700s north of the river, maybe do something radical and us them on a through service that could help release some units for elsewhere. Very 2018

 

[scrapthe503]

Absolutely, but I would be amazed if the conversations are not going on. If I was the ROSCO owning them I would be knocking on DfTs door. If they ignore you knocking then you are no worse off.

In this Crazy world, really Kings Cross shouldn't see any 700s, as they are happy on the 3rd rail send them South of the river and leave Kings Cross - Cambridge / Peterborough etc to AC only units. If they do insist on runing the 700s north of the river, maybe do something radical and us them on a through service that could help release some units for elsewhere. Very 2018

A through service? No no, that will never do...

 

[hwl]

Well there's no 465/2s in service anyway.

If the 379s do get leased by GTR, which isn't finalised yet, any cascade moves wouldn't displace the same amount of units from SN to SE.

Do SouthEastern really need a big cascade inwards?

The big SE problem is lack of depot/siding space.

Inwards so far:
30x 707 have come in (+150 carriages)
23x 377/5 have come in (+92 carriages)
= +242 carriages in (and Thameslink running some Rainham services)

Out so far (I haven't been keeping track very well):
(at least) 21x Met Cam 465/2 & /9 have been stored (84 carriages)
(at least) 2x Met Cam 466 have been stored (4 carriages)
=- 88 out so far

+242 - 88= +154 carriages so far

Losing the remainder of Metcam 465 and 466 (realistically not this many, just haven't been able to keep track)
29x 465/9 (-116 cars)
41x 466 (-82 cars)

So potential net further loss of 198 cars

So current net +154 cars -198 cars = -44 cars so a loss of equivalent to 11x 4cars

Thameslink Rainham impact is equivalent to 5x 8car on SE turf = net reduction in train requirement of 40cars or 10x 4car

Net loss of just 4cars if all the Metcam 465 unit go vs 5/6 years ago. which given their reliability is probably a net 0...

If Southeastern did an effective (for passnegers) timetable recast and remove the vast quantities of padding, then the rolling stock requirement to provide the same service level would come down... Charing Cross or Cannon Street to Lewisham averaging in the 18-19mph range is not quick.

 

[43096]

In fairness, one would potentially be inclined to suggest that 37 350/2s would be perfect on the GN if they could have a slight refurb, with a bit of extra luggage space for some of the longer-distance flows, and with First Class being available anyway. Oh, and they're Siemens, and Hornsey is a Siemens depot. Oh, again, and they can do 110 can't they?

But that is definitely speculative...

I have suggested this before, with 379s going to GWR to displace 387142-171. That frees up almost 70 x 387s to go to Southern which would then allow considerable numbers of 377s to go to SouthEastern to bin off a big proportion of the Networkers.

 

[Magdalia]

It does seem at times like the industry / DFT has a vendetta against Networkers. Successive south eastern franchises have done little with the 465 fleets, whilst we all know what happened to the excellent 365s.

There is no vendetta against Networkers, they became unfit for purpose.

The class 365s ran on 1990s computer software that was becoming increasingly difficult to maintain.

The class 365s had no external on board cameras or selective door opening.

I know less about the class 465s but I suspect that the same issues apply, except on the units with the Hitachi traction package.

 

[scrapthe503]

There is no vendetta against Networkers, they became unfit for purpose.

The class 365s ran on 1990s computer software that was becoming increasingly difficult to maintain.

The class 365s had no external on board cameras or selective door opening.

I know less about the class 465s but I suspect that the same issues apply, except on the units with the Hitachi traction package.

Southeastern 465s do lack SDO but on a network that had a huge proportion of 8 car services, with some 10s (all platforms accommodated that out of Charing Cross / Cannon Street) or 12s (platforms now extended appropriately), it is perhaps more likely that until now there have been too many to replace at an appropriate price.

But now, it's become too hard to avoid the reality...

 

[bramling]

There is no vendetta against Networkers, they became unfit for purpose.

The class 365s ran on 1990s computer software that was becoming increasingly difficult to maintain.

The class 365s had no external on board cameras or selective door opening.

That is kind of my point, it’s natural that any train is going to accrue some level of obsolescence. In the case of the Networker fleets this doesn’t seem to have been managed effectively.

I know less about the class 465s but I suspect that the same issues apply, except on the units with the Hitachi traction package.

Quite probably. However other 1990s fleets don’t seem to have been abandoned in this way. Its interesting to speculate on how things might be today had we not had the decade of ultra-low interest rates, in which case new fleets simply wouldn’t have been able to be procured so readily.

 

[ScotGG]

A lot of this talk doesn't look at the wider context (I suspect the DFT doesn't either) which is population growth, new housing growth and where demand in the near future could or will come from. It's a bold - or stupid - decision to bin off stock if that happens in areas seeing some of the highest growth in population and housing (which is often car free and reliant on public transport) in the entire country.

 

[jon0844]

Even traveling the short distance between Potters Bar to Finsbury Park / Kings Cross is much nicer on a 387 compared to a 700.

Yes, but there are now many 387s reported as full and standing at times - so 700s are better for commuters, even if the ambience isn't the same.

387s are better for things like the Cambridge Cruiser and on to King's Lynn, giving a higher level of comfort for longer journeys.

If 387s/379s are eventually going to fully take over the 2C/2R/2L services, it may work for a while but when passenger numbers increase and there are events at Knebworth House, Hatfield House, Alexandra Palace, Finsbury Park and/or people going to King's Cross for any number of events (not all at the same time, obviously!) then what happens then? There was a reason for the misguided 2018 timetable change, and bar stripping out the tables and going for a high density seating layout, I think people will soon remember what it was like before the 700s - and it wasn't nice for people at many stations (often unable to board at all).

 

[scrapthe503]

I have suggested this before, with 379s going to GWR to displace 387142-171. That frees up almost 70 x 387s to go to Southern which would then allow considerable numbers of 377s to go to SouthEastern to bin off a big proportion of the Networkers.

You're asking quite a bit. 387s on GWR are set up for their intended work - lots of bodies, not much if any First Class (at least the product is just a napkin on a horrid seat), and another fleet type. The 387s on GWR are better left as they are - its a singular electric fleet.

379s on the GN, with better use of 700s, also means that the GN officially has two fleet types to concern itself with (although one is a Thameslink class). More 387s down south of the river doesn't make any difference - coastal and main line depots are fit to use them. They'd be just as likely, if not more likely, to do Brighton - East Coastway and Brighton - West Coastway stuff centred on Lovers Walk like the GX stuff rather than Metro.

And Southeastern not only have 377s, but can probably be encouraged to improve depot facilities with more of them to ween themselves off of Selhurst. Stewarts Lane? Chart Leacon? Gillingham?

Yes, but there are now many 387s reported as full and standing at times - so 700s are better for commuters, even if the ambience isn't the same.

387s are better for things like the Cambridge Cruiser and on to King's Lynn, giving a higher level of comfort for longer journeys.

If 387s/379s are eventually going to fully take over the 2C/2R/2L services, it may work for a while but when passenger numbers increase and there are events at Knebworth House, Hatfield House, Alexandra Palace, Finsbury Park and/or people going to King's Cross for any number of events (not all at the same time, obviously!) then what happens then? There was a reason for the misguided 2018 timetable change, and bar stripping out the tables and going for a high density seating layout, I think people will soon remember what it was like before the 700s - and it wasn't nice for people at many stations (often unable to board at all).

I seem to remember reports of very angry Fen line types refusing to pay for First Class season tickets when the 387s came in. The 379s would probably tempt them to pick them back up. And make the product choice for rather rich sciency types going to/from Cambridge more inclined to go First than travel on Thameslink or GA.

All they'd really need is a tea trolley. That would be lovely.

 

[Failed Unit]

All they'd really need is a tea trolley. That would be lovely.

I remember when they had one of them - didn't shift much merchendise but make sports fans happy

 

[MikeWM]

Yes, but there are now many 387s reported as full and standing at times - so 700s are better for commuters, even if the ambience isn't the same.

387s are better for things like the Cambridge Cruiser and on to King's Lynn, giving a higher level of comfort for longer journeys.

Having had the 'pleasure' of a 700 from Ely to Kings Cross on Saturday - the first time I've been on one for any length of time in a while - it re-confirmed all my previous memories of just how uncomfortable they are for anything over 30 minutes or so.

The Cambridge 'Cruisers' should not be 700s - even trying to account for my significant bias in the matter, that much seems really obvious to me. If getting 379s means more 700s north of Cambridge, I'd much rather we kept things as they are (much as I'm a fan of the 379s).

 

[Class 800]

If we were to operate the Cambridge stoppers with more 700s, would there be merit in trying to use 700/1s for the 1 or 2 busiest peak trains?

 

[bramling]

Yes, but there are now many 387s reported as full and standing at times - so 700s are better for commuters, even if the ambience isn't the same.

387s are better for things like the Cambridge Cruiser and on to King's Lynn, giving a higher level of comfort for longer journeys.

If 387s/379s are eventually going to fully take over the 2C/2R/2L services, it may work for a while but when passenger numbers increase and there are events at Knebworth House, Hatfield House, Alexandra Palace, Finsbury Park and/or people going to King's Cross for any number of events (not all at the same time, obviously!) then what happens then? There was a reason for the misguided 2018 timetable change, and bar stripping out the tables and going for a high density seating layout, I think people will soon remember what it was like before the 700s - and it wasn't nice for people at many stations (often unable to board at all).

This is where 365s would have worked better. Their interior layout was a much better compromise than the 387s, with a much more spacious aisle, yet managing to fit in more seats as well.

Having said all that, to be honest I would take 387s over 700s, and if this causes the occasional issue during events then so be it. The solution to off-peak and peak crowding is to reinstate some or all of the services we have lost. The Baldocks for a start.

 

[Fincra5]

I have suggested this before, with 379s going to GWR to displace 387142-171. That frees up almost 70 x 387s to go to Southern which would then allow considerable numbers of 377s to go to SouthEastern to bin off a big proportion of the Networkers.

At the risk of going off-track in this thread.

Several reasons a 350/2 would not be favourable for the GN:

• 3+2 Seating
• No DOO Equipment
• Different unit requiring a full conversion course for Drivers (etc)
• Fleet Re-training from Electrostars

Overall, 379s would be the preferred fleet choice. Providing they are acceptable.

But things change.

In fairness, one would potentially be inclined to suggest that 37 350/2s would be perfect on the GN if they could have a slight refurb, with a bit of extra luggage space for some of the longer-distance flows, and with First Class being available anyway. Oh, and they're Siemens, and Hornsey is a Siemens depot. Oh, again, and they can do 110 can't they?

But that is definitely speculative...

There is a Siemens depot, at the North end of Hornsey but the main EMUD is inhouse and deals with 717s and 387s. Siemens themselves look after the 700s at their Hornsey Facility, not the GN one (even if 700s occasionally use the EMUD Shed and are stored in the carriage sidings).

 

[scrapthe503]

At the risk of going off-track in this thread.

Several reasons a 350/2 would not be favourable for the GN:

• 3+2 Seating
• No DOO Equipment
• Different unit requiring a full conversion course for Drivers (etc)
• Fleet Re-training from Electrostars

Overall, 379s would be the preferred fleet choice. Providing they are acceptable.

But things change.


There is a Siemens depot, at the North end of Hornsey but the main EMUD is inhouse and deals with 717s and 387s. Siemens themselves look after the 700s at their Hornsey Facility, not the GN one (even if 700s occasionally use the EMUD Shed and are stored in the carriage sidings).

Again, it’s solely speculative, but arguably 3+2 seating on longer-distance trains such as something going to Lynn without as many stops, with the First Class, it wouldn’t be so bad.

 

[swt_passenger]

Is is still possible that Great Northern will take on the ex GA Class 379 EMUs? Is the introduction of the 379s still slated for the May 2024 timetable change? Which In turn will allow GN Class 387s to Southern strengthening Class 377s Is this speculation still liable to even occur?

Isn’t that theoretical cascade exactly what the last few pages are still completely unsure about? Why would it suddenly be any clearer today than yesterday, or last week?

{written just before the very next post actually made everything clearer}.

 

[Snow1964]

Here is the award £50,112,000 for 30 class 379s

1 buyer​

• Govia Thameslink RailwayLondon

1 supplier​

• Porterbrook LeasingDerby

Description​

Supply of 30 Electric Multiple Units for use of the Great Northern fleet.

Total Quantity or Scope​

Supply of 30 Class 379 Electric Multiple Units for use of the Great Northern fleet.

Award Detail​

1	Porterbrook Leasing (Derby) Supply of 30 Class 379 EMU's for Great Northern Reference: 007878-2024-gtr0734-1 Value: £50,112,000

CPV Codes​

• 34622400 - Railway carriages

Legal Justification​

Regulation 50 (a) of the UCR16 regulations allows award with out prior call for competition where no tender, no suitable tenders, no requests to participate or no suitable requests to participate have been submitted in response to a procedure with call for competition, provided that the initial conditions of contract are not substantially altered

Other Information​

** PREVIEW NOTICE, please check Find a Tender for full details. **

Reference​

• ocds-h6vhtk-0447c8
• FTS 007878-2024

Leasing for the GN Network of Additional Rolling Stock [VEAT]

Supply of 30 Electric Multiple Units for use of the Great Northern fleet.... A Voluntary Ex-Ante Transparency (VEAT) Notice by Govia Thameslink Railway. Value £50M.

bidstats.uk

 

[XCTurbostar]

Since when does Porterbrook own the 30 379s? I assumed it was still Akiem.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

I take it Porterbrook will put them through the Aurora mods programme?

 

[Snow1964]

Since when does Porterbrook own the 30 379s? I assumed it was still Akiem.

Presumably they have bought them from Aiken.

Looks like Porterbrook have been on a spending spree, as also been reports that it has done deal with St Mogwen and bought freehold of 135 acres at Long Marston, including the rail innovation centre

 

[brad465]

Should be in just in time for the next RAIL edition this weekend, now we wait to see how much of the speculated cascade will follow.

 

[XCTurbostar]

Presumably they have bought them from Aiken.

Looks like Porterbrook have been on a spending spree, as also reports today that it has done deal with St Mogwen and bought freehold of 135 acres at Long Marston, including the rail innovation centre

Interesting, I believe it's been stated here before that Axiem wanted to dispose of them so it makes sense.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The Long Marston deal was done last week.
https://www.porterbrook.co.uk/news/...rchase-of-long-marston-rail-innovation-centre

Porterbrook, the UK’s leading rolling stock financier and asset management company, has agreed a deal with St Modwen to acquire the freehold of the Long Marston Rail Innovation Centre in Warwickshire.
Porterbrook has been operating the site since June 2021, and already invested over £13m to upgrade and enhance facilities across the centre.

“This deal provides absolute clarity for our business, our shareholders and the wider rail industry over the long-term future of Long Marston Rail Innovation Centre” said Mary Grant, CEO of Porterbrook.
“It gives us the certainty to move forwards with our plans and invest further to deliver an exceptional facility for testing, training, maintenance and storage for the railway.”

Nothing on their web site yet about the 379s.

 

[scrapthe503]

Here is the award £50,112,000 for 30 class 379s

Leasing for the GN Network of Additional Rolling Stock [VEAT]

Supply of 30 Electric Multiple Units for use of the Great Northern fleet.... A Voluntary Ex-Ante Transparency (VEAT) Notice by Govia Thameslink Railway. Value £50M.

bidstats.uk

Well well well.

C

First 379 in passenger service on GN already slated for October 2024. Squadron service for December timetable change, with all Metro Cammell-built 465/466 gone from Southeastern at the same TT change. One assumes the 387s going south is to send some 377s across to SE to cover.

So the 379 confirmation was duly called. Only the rest to pan out now…

Just as well, because for the most part your "official sources" appear to be incorrect on several counts

Which bit was wrong? The 379 bit?

Should be in just in time for the next RAIL edition this weekend, now we wait to see how much of the speculated cascade will follow.

Spending one‘s life waiting for LIAR is not wise…

 

[43074]

Which bit was wrong? The 379 bit?

Mostly your inferences around TLGN fleet diagramming both now and in future timetables.

Entry into service has definitely not been narrowed down to a particular month, hence why the 0734 Peterborough to Kings Cross/1642 Kings Cross to Peterborough are in the system as Q paths from June (0635/1742 will be 8-car 700 from June for those interested.)

There are still lots of uncertainties but one thing which is certain is that there will be nowhere near enough units cascaded to Southeastern in December to allow wholesale replacement of the MetCam Networkers.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Is it me or has the 379 Award notice gone behind some sort of Bidstats security wall?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Is it me or has the 379 Award notice gone behind some sort of Bidstats security wall?

I could see it 5 minutes ago and now there's a wall there.

 

[JacobWrenn]

Opening the link in an incognito tab seems to bring it back for me.