Greater Anglia Bombardier Aventras (Class 720): Technical discussion and introduction

[Jamesrob637]

Heard reports it’s was roaded there , anyone any idea?

I'm going into Manchester tomorrow, a week after having seen my first GA 720s in the flesh last Friday around Ilford and Stratford. However, I can't answer as to what it's doing up here.

mod note - for speculation as to whether Northern could do with a fleet of Class 720s see:

Could Northern do with a fleet of Class 720s?

Maybe Northern will procure a fleet of them and they're using it to test the lie of the land. 5-car would be good for many services here, with an occasional 10 in the peaks midweek even if some coaches in the rear unit are locked out of use due to platform lengths.

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[wickham]

Is not Longsight an Alstom Depot ?
Probably these units are gouing there simply for attention to spread out the workload between Alstom sites - Ilford and Wembley have been doing such work (and still are) on other new fleets (710 and 701 respectivly).

 

[800001]

Is not Longsight an Alstom Depot ?
Probably these units are gouing there simply for attention to spread out the workload between Alstom sites - Ilford and Wembley have been doing such work (and still are) on other new fleets (710 and 701 respectivly).

The units have gone there for finishing off work on the units and for preparation for sale.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Is not Longsight an Alstom Depot ?
Probably these units are gouing there simply for attention to spread out the workload between Alstom sites - Ilford and Wembley have been doing such work (and still are) on other new fleets (710 and 701 respectivly).

Yes, but more than just routine attention, the Aventras are going to various Alstom depots for finishing units that are unfinished (faults/stored) from Derby (often via a long/short spell at Worksop).

The 710s are "finished" at Ilford, 720s seem to be Wembley (Willesden more likely just 720/6s), I have a feeling 701s are "finished" at Eastleigh ?.

Have to consider that Fault Free Running is done up and down the West Coast Mail Line for the 720s so maybe Wembley could be just a base for that.

But some GA 720s do need "finishing" - I tend to think Longsight might be "finishing" the dozen or so long stored 720/5s. Derby are soon running out of brand new 720s to deliver and so the sidelined 720s will need facing up to and "finishing", probably while Derby continue banging out 730s.

Goodness knows what state the 701s and early unused 720/5s are in after (years ?) of storage.

Some of the "finishing" work is quite major. The aim, I can guess, is to keep it away from the Derby production lines probably to allow them to remain sleek and efficient (did I really say that !). I can see Longsight being quite busy but then Longsight is soon to dispense with work on their TPE Mk5s (their turn to fester for years in sidings).

 

[Peter Mugridge]

720 115 + 720 520 on the 10.55 Liverpool Street to Stansted today; told there's a second pair as well.

Looks like the 745 switch has started.

 

[Alfie1014]

720 115 + 720 520 on the 10.55 Liverpool Street to Stansted today; told there's a second pair as well.

Looks like the 745 switch has started.

Second pair on the 10:25 from Liv St, just seen it on the return working 11:30 ex Stansted. Whilst I’m pleased to have an extra 745 on the Norwich route the inadequacy of the layout of the 720s on the airport run is apparent. The 10:55 departed Liv St with pretty much no one in the front 5 cars and in the rear 5 the rear most car was well loaded with the next perhaps 1/3 full. Likewise the 11:30 ex Stansted was packed in the rear car, moderately loaded in the next and pretty empty in the rest.

And yes others will get on at intermediate stations and no matter what rolling stock is used rear loading has always been a problem with Stansted services, but the extremely narrow aisles in the 720s make moving through the train with luggage very difficult.

 

[3973EXL]

47727 720509

Realtime Trains | 5Q68 0908 Derby Litchurch Lane to Willesden T.M.D | 12/12/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q68 0908 departure from Derby Litchurch Lane to Willesden T.M.D on 12/12/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Peter Mugridge]

720 509 confirmed by sight inside Willesden depot at 14.42, poking out of the north end of the building.

 

[robert west]

this was the unit that broke down between Hatfield Peveril and Witham whilst on test approx. 3 years ago with brake problems seem to remember it could only move at 5mph when rescued .
rescued by a class 47 and left in Witham down loop overnight

 

[Peter Sarf]

this was the unit that broke down between Hatfield Peveril and Witham whilst on test approx. 3 years ago with brake problems seem to remember it could only move at 5mph when rescued .
rescued by a class 47 and left in Witham down loop overnight

Three years to fix a fault, why am I not surprised !.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

Second pair on the 10:25 from Liv St, just seen it on the return working 11:30 ex Stansted. Whilst I’m pleased to have an extra 745 on the Norwich route the inadequacy of the layout of the 720s on the airport run is apparent. The 10:55 departed Liv St with pretty much no one in the front 5 cars and in the rear 5 the rear most car was well loaded with the next perhaps 1/3 full. Likewise the 11:30 ex Stansted was packed in the rear car, moderately loaded in the next and pretty empty in the rest.

And yes others will get on at intermediate stations and no matter what rolling stock is used rear loading has always been a problem with Stansted services, but the extremely narrow aisles in the 720s make moving through the train with luggage very difficult.

There's no good answers here with the fleet GA have without refurbishment, even that won't really work as how many units do you refurb, 4, 6 or 8 or more? Do you refurb the 745s as well to enable them to provide a consistent service on the Norwich route, how many again, 1, 2, 3 or 4?

 

[wickham]

The answer to the Stanstead problem is a little known class called 379s !!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The answer to the Stanstead problem is a little known class called 379s !!

It’s getting boring now. It won’t happen.

 

[Energy]

The answer to the Stanstead problem is a little known class called 379s !!

It isn't, the 379s are better placed at Great Northern and the spare 720s on Stansted.

 

[chubs]

The answer to the Stanstead problem is a little known class called 379s !!

It's not. The 2 type fleet idea is solid, they have excess stock, leasing very expensive extra stock is an awful idea.

For longevity I'd love to see them order a couple more of both variants of 745 thus enabling a consistent service but it wont happen.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

It's not. The 2 type fleet idea is solid, they have excess stock, leasing very expensive extra stock is an awful idea.

For longevity I'd love to see them order a couple more of both variants of 745 thus enabling a consistent service but it wont happen.

I fear GA will unfortunately have the 745 challenge for many years to come, the best that can be hoped for is refurb of some Stansted express units to IC standard (even if that does happen it will be a half job, i.e. just tables added) and a number of 720 refurb'd to 2+2 seating and extra luggage space for Stansted express running.

I think there will be a crunch time on the GEML capacity wise that will force the issue but we're a couple of years away from that.

Begs the question though, if the pandemic hadn't have happened what state would GA be in, probably 720s cropping up everywhere

 

[Peter Sarf]

I fear GA will unfortunately have the 745 challenge for many years to come, the best that can be hoped for is refurb of some Stansted express units to IC standard (even if that does happen it will be a half job, i.e. just tables added) and a number of 720 refurb'd to 2+2 seating and extra luggage space for Stansted express running.

I think there will be a crunch time on the GEML capacity wise that will force the issue but we're a couple of years away from that.

Begs the question though, if the pandemic hadn't have happened what state would GA be in, probably 720s cropping up everywhere

And Derby being around for growth builds - maybe, or would it ?.

 

[meld3]

Liverpool Street becomes Britain's busiest station

The London station has replaced Waterloo as the busiest after the full opening of the Elizabeth line.

www.bbc.co.uk

Still have too many 720's ??

 

[Adrian1980uk]

Liverpool Street becomes Britain's busiest station

The London station has replaced Waterloo as the busiest after the full opening of the Elizabeth line.

www.bbc.co.uk

Still have too many 720's ??

Judging by the fact the Stansted express 745 I was on this morning as a sub for the IC 745 it's not just the Elizabeth line, double whammy from GA routes as well

 

[moonarrow458]

It isn't, the 379s are better placed at Great Northern and the spare 720s on Stansted.

If we disregard the incredibly narrow aisles on the 720s which make walking through the train awkward for a slim built passenger let alone airport passengers. Granted if you were to remove the 3+2, and replace it with 2+2 seating plus some extra luggage racks then you would have a suitable subfleet of 720s for Stansted services

 

[Essex Express]

Looking at the timetable a 15 minute service needs 9 diagrams. Which explains why 10 units were allocated to the airport 9 in service and 1 on maintenance. With 9 for the Norwich Intercity. But it looks like they need 10 to run a 30 minute service and does not cover the extra peak trip. Looking at the old class 90 diagram it was 10 out all day 1 on the peak trip set 12 was on maintance with 15 locos to cover.
So clearly there are not enough Intercity sets. But Looking at the class 317 units there were 9 class 317/7 units and 12 class 318/8 with explains why I regularly has two class 317/8 and no 317/7 as there were not enough to cover the 9 diagrams. So on paper you either need 10 or 20 class 720 converted to airport spec. Then send the all the clas 745 to the GEML. This would give the GEML 20 units.
2 on maintance
10 all day Norwich Intercity duties
1 Norwich peak duty
Then another 7 on Ipswich to London semi fasts and the odd Clacton service This also gives flex if a set does fail it is only a Ipswich semi fast or Clacton to cover with a class 720 no increase in driver training.

 

[Wivenswold]

The Stadlers move to GEML has been referenced many a time and it seemed for a while it would happen. With 20 x 720s getting interiors that better matched airport traffic.
I seem to recall someone on here who works/worked for GA saying the plan was scrapped.

 

[apinnard]

The Stadlers move to GEML has been referenced many a time and it seemed for a while it would happen. With 20 x 720s getting interiors that better matched airport traffic.
I seem to recall someone on here who works/worked for GA saying the plan was scrapped.

@dk1 don’t suppose you know, do you old chap?

 

[dk1]

@dk1 don’t suppose you know, do you old chap?

Evening. I don’t know about scrapped. It has always been my favoured idea along with putting tables into 745/1s. Keep the Stadlers on the GEML close to their home depot and leave the West to a fully 720 operation makes so much sense.

If I knew anything similar I’d be shouting it from the rooftops.

 

[wickham]

Didn't 720523 go back to Derby 06.03.23 for "sorting out the seating arrangement" ? Don't think we have heard anything since - is it still there, is it being modified, or did it never go ??

 

[AJDesiro]

Didn't 720523 go back to Derby 06.03.23 for "sorting out the seating arrangement" ? Don't think we have heard anything since - is it still there, is it being modified, or did it never go ??

I was on that unit yesterday, the interior didn’t seem majorly different, it was still 3+2 with no tables. I don’t recall whether it had the modified seat layout with the bays of six closed to the doors reduced to bays of 4 or not.

 

[Kite159]

.

The Stadlers move to GEML has been referenced many a time and it seemed for a while it would happen. With 20 x 720s getting interiors that better matched airport traffic.
I seem to recall someone on here who works/worked for GA saying the plan was scrapped.

Agreed, even if the interior gets changed to be "3-1+2" style seating (like some areas of the C2C units). Maybe even with a few luggage racks installed near the coach ends (where passengers get a view of plastic). Nothing out of the world, although they will have the issue of the rear unit getting busy from Liverpool Street & Tottenham Hale with the front unit quiet as people don't generally walk down the platforms.

(I already see it with the 745s, the front can be lightly loaded but rear is F&S)

 

[wickham]

Ref my post 2605: I don't think 720523 ever went back to Derby - perhaps it was a proposal that never happened. I have found photos on Flickr of it in use out of Liverpool Street dated 19.03.23 (only 13 days after it's projected move) and at various dates in March, April and right up to November, so it would appear that it has never been away.
It has been mentioned on this forum that the more recent 720/1s have been delivered with the revised (reduced) seating but are the rest now to stay as they are ?

 

[Milo T.K]

From what I heard there is a plan for tables to be fitted on the SSD 745s but it's if GA funds it.

Evening. I don’t know about scrapped. It has always been my favoured idea along with putting tables into 745/1s. Keep the Stadlers on the GEML close to their home depot and leave the West to a fully 720 operation makes so much sense.

If I knew anything similar I’d be shouting it from the rooftops.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

Ref my post 2605: I don't think 720523 ever went back to Derby - perhaps it was a proposal that never happened. I have found photos on Flickr of it in use out of Liverpool Street dated 19.03.23 (only 13 days after it's projected move) and at various dates in March, April and right up to November, so it would appear that it has never been away.
It has been mentioned on this forum that the more recent 720/1s have been delivered with the revised (reduced) seating but are the rest now to stay as they are ?

It must be super frustrating that they're only 2 or 3 Stadlers short of having enough for both lines