Has ScotRail confirmed anything about the stock for the Fife Circle once electrification to Dalmeny is complete and cleared for use? I'm reading it's on schedule for completion this December and that battery units should be used, yet I haven't seen anything to that extent. I think these may be the ideal stock for using the new wires...
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GW 769s to Scotrail?
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AlastairFraser
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Too far and seating unsuitable, Leven/Kilmarnock/Girvan and Ayr via Kilmarnock would work better.
Iskra
Established Member
Alex Hynes on Twitter has stated that Scotrail don’t have any 769’s. It does leave some room for manoeuvre though, not ruling out future use.
I think the current situation with the old Ayr Station Hotel and the shuttle temporarily in place would be the ideal use for 769s until things get sorted out with the building and the power can be turned back on again. I'm not sure that would release any stock that could be usefully redeployed. Barrhead, East Kilbride, Kilmarnock, Dumfries, Stranraer immediately come to mind. Fife Circle and Borders perhaps also?
Have to bear in mind the maintenance needs of this stock along with their lack of reliability. And how to recover in the not-so-unlikely event of one sitting down somewhere critical and the impact such a failure would have on operations.
Thinking it through -
Porterbrook own the 769s. Porterbrook now own a stake in Brodie Engineering.
Is there a chance they've done a speculative refurb to showcase what's possible with the units? In a similar manner to what they did with the 144 PRM conversion?
Porterbrook own the 769s. Porterbrook now own a stake in Brodie Engineering.
Is there a chance they've done a speculative refurb to showcase what's possible with the units? In a similar manner to what they did with the 144 PRM conversion?
Very possible, especially if the units were offered at an attractive price? SR is short of some stock and these could definitely fill that gap.
Speed43125
Member
ISTR it was said that by the time the DfT pulled the plug on the 769/9s, they'd essentially ironed out all the issues with them, and it was just crew training left to sort out. No clue how accurate these sentiments were though.
I'd be very interested to know where you've read that. My impression from the thread on the project is that very little has happened in the last 15 months (though posts that are strictly on-topic are outnumbered in the thread by broader discussions). Works over Christmas 2022 were cancelled and a works compound was reportedly closed down.
There's been a big slowdown in the Scottish electrification/decarbonisation programme generally, for financial reasons. The Barrhead project was not affected and has been completed, and the East Kilbride line has now been properly started, for completion by the end of 2025, but everything else seems to be slowed down, including the proposed partial electrification of lines in Fife and the Borders line. An updated version, or "refresh", of the 2020 decarbonisation strategy document, originally promised for spring 2023, is now said to be due out soon.
Partial electrification with battery trains (BEMUs) is certainly the policy for Fife, but even if Haymarket to Dalmeny were completed, I don't think the few (9 or so?) miles beteen Waverley and Dalmeny would be enough to allow them to be introduced until further wiring is in place in Fife itself, and until the "refresh" document is published we don't know when that will be.
The rebuilt Levenmouth branch, due to reopen in June, has been equipped with foundations for electrification masts, but no actual masts. The Thornton feeder station, which will eventually supply the lines to be electrified in Fife, has not started construction, and is now supposed to be ready by September 2026.
The most recent published policy on rolling stock acquisition dated from summer 2022 - see the beginning of the thread linked here:
ScotRail’s New Trains Procurement Programme
An advert for a tender for legal services for the above (https://www.publiccontractsscotland.gov.uk/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=AUG455691) gives some more detail on the fleet plan ScotRail Trains (SRT) plans to replace 65% of its train fleet (around 675 carriages) in the period 2027 to...
www.railforums.co.uk
but this was before the big slowdown. Probably the upcoming decarbonisation strategy refresh will include or be accompanied by an update on rolling stock procurement.
I see. I had been going off very limited information available to me, maybe I should've worded it as "is (or was) scheduled" as compared to "on schedule". My bad.
Currently only able to get a 2 car 156 in to Ayr. All things going well, South Ayrshire Council will be handing back control of the rail infrastructure at Ayr Station to Network Rail the 2nd week of March. Electric trains planned to be running again from 24th March.
D365
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A 769 on electric is a 319.
But if there is a market for additional 3 car units, are there not several more 321s available?
In the past Scotrail hasn't been afraid to draft in traction for short-term use due to rolling stock shortages.
They ran 10 X 365s on Edinburgh-Glasgow/Stirling services during 2018-19 to cover for 385s (source: Wikipedia)
It could be a similar scenario again if the 769s are proven to be sufficiently reliable, by releasing some 156s from Glasgow Central to Kilmarnock/East Kilbride services in order to provide enough units to serve Leven.
If both 769s being worked on at Brodies actually entered service, how many 156s could move elsewhere?
They ran 10 X 365s on Edinburgh-Glasgow/Stirling services during 2018-19 to cover for 385s (source: Wikipedia)
It could be a similar scenario again if the 769s are proven to be sufficiently reliable, by releasing some 156s from Glasgow Central to Kilmarnock/East Kilbride services in order to provide enough units to serve Leven.
If both 769s being worked on at Brodies actually entered service, how many 156s could move elsewhere?
FlybeDash8Q400
Established Member
This is the first I’ve had a real chance to read about this. Certainly the theories add up in many cases, but the 769’s are hopelessly unreliable and unless (as others have said) that ScotRail were to get them for buttons then it’s probably a dangerous plan.
Personally, I don’t think we should be seeing 156’s returning to Fife. Generally speaking they should be looking to replace the 156’s, not move them elsewhere. The Bi-mode option always seemed to be what ScotRail wanted for Fife in the short to medium term. Maybe the 769’s are exactly the right solution for that? A stop gap of course.
Are ScotRail so short that they cannot use more HST’s to release 158’s/170’s? I hear a lot that only around half of the 25 are ever out at a time which seems a shocking waste. Is it really so few? I know at good few sets are unusable as result of damage or failure. We won’t mention the lack of upgrades to 5 cars as well, but it does tie within my point about where the HST’s seem to be in their plans. Whether or not we’re even going to see 170’s at Leven I’m not sure, as so far I’ve only seen 158’s?
Certainly there’s plenty of 769’s available if they wanted to use them and it’s really a question of where these are best running. The 380’s look as if they won’t be running through to Edinburgh/North Berwick from June so that should free up enough for Barrhead to keep them anyway.
The 769’s presumably would be allocated to Corkerhill in any case. That would then allow them to be used on East Kilbride and Kilmarnock services and in time possibly Kilmarnock to Ayr/Girvan. Could they make it to Stranraer? Personally speaking I don’t see the point in them running on the Maryhill Line for a few reasons. Firstly, how much time are they actually going to run on the wires for if they ran on that route. Secondly, does Anniesland really need 4 cars all day every day? There’s still going to be 156’s needed for the West Highland Line at Eastfield so that for me would be an unnecessary change.
I actually think putting the 769’s into Fife makes more sense. Of course this initially would need to be restricted to stopping services to Glenrothes/Cowdenbeath/Leven. Again though the diagrams have always been set up to work to/from Perth and Dundee as well, so large changes would be necessary to do this too. This would also be an issue with diagramming 156’s in Fife. Whatever you do with Fife you could have to train up Aberdeen, Dundee, Edinburgh, Leven and Perth crews on any new stock as all work/will work the Fife stopping services. That’s a lot of crew to be honest. I’m not aware of any other depots working the route. Tweedbank maybe?
Personally, I don’t think we should be seeing 156’s returning to Fife. Generally speaking they should be looking to replace the 156’s, not move them elsewhere. The Bi-mode option always seemed to be what ScotRail wanted for Fife in the short to medium term. Maybe the 769’s are exactly the right solution for that? A stop gap of course.
Are ScotRail so short that they cannot use more HST’s to release 158’s/170’s? I hear a lot that only around half of the 25 are ever out at a time which seems a shocking waste. Is it really so few? I know at good few sets are unusable as result of damage or failure. We won’t mention the lack of upgrades to 5 cars as well, but it does tie within my point about where the HST’s seem to be in their plans. Whether or not we’re even going to see 170’s at Leven I’m not sure, as so far I’ve only seen 158’s?
Certainly there’s plenty of 769’s available if they wanted to use them and it’s really a question of where these are best running. The 380’s look as if they won’t be running through to Edinburgh/North Berwick from June so that should free up enough for Barrhead to keep them anyway.
The 769’s presumably would be allocated to Corkerhill in any case. That would then allow them to be used on East Kilbride and Kilmarnock services and in time possibly Kilmarnock to Ayr/Girvan. Could they make it to Stranraer? Personally speaking I don’t see the point in them running on the Maryhill Line for a few reasons. Firstly, how much time are they actually going to run on the wires for if they ran on that route. Secondly, does Anniesland really need 4 cars all day every day? There’s still going to be 156’s needed for the West Highland Line at Eastfield so that for me would be an unnecessary change.
I actually think putting the 769’s into Fife makes more sense. Of course this initially would need to be restricted to stopping services to Glenrothes/Cowdenbeath/Leven. Again though the diagrams have always been set up to work to/from Perth and Dundee as well, so large changes would be necessary to do this too. This would also be an issue with diagramming 156’s in Fife. Whatever you do with Fife you could have to train up Aberdeen, Dundee, Edinburgh, Leven and Perth crews on any new stock as all work/will work the Fife stopping services. That’s a lot of crew to be honest. I’m not aware of any other depots working the route. Tweedbank maybe?
Fincra5
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Weren't the GWR ones starting to behave themselves at time of withdrawal? Are they any less unreliable than a DMU of similar vintage?
I think we might be gatting a bit ahead of ourselves with all these thoughts. At present there are only TWO x 769s at Brodies, any of the above suggestions would require a larger fleet. Perhaps Scotrail are simply going to "test the water" with these two to see how suitable they are. It could even be a cheap or free domonstration on behalf of the owners. No doubt more will be officially announced in due course.
Quantity 2
That is exactly the number of 156s it tales to run the current Ayr shuttle, which spends the majority of its time under energised wires.
Longer term, 769s would make sense for Kilmarnock to allow use of the juice up to Barrhead. The 319 door arrangement would make more sense than the class 156 long distance style single leaf end doors on this route too.
Having seen reports that they aren’t especially powerful on diesel I suspect Girvan to Stranraer wound be a seriously bad idea.
That is exactly the number of 156s it tales to run the current Ayr shuttle, which spends the majority of its time under energised wires.
Longer term, 769s would make sense for Kilmarnock to allow use of the juice up to Barrhead. The 319 door arrangement would make more sense than the class 156 long distance style single leaf end doors on this route too.
Having seen reports that they aren’t especially powerful on diesel I suspect Girvan to Stranraer wound be a seriously bad idea.
I suspect, if these 2 have been brought north as speculative by Porterbrook, then they will be tried out over various routes to establish their suitability for those routes. Girvan to/from Stranraer isn't exactly high speed, with 156s, so 769s might very well be ok. The borders route makes use of the higher top speed of 158s and 170s, so this route is unlikely to be suitable for them. Fife circle/Leven would be ok.
Run some tests, gather some data and come to an informed decision where best to deploy. If, of course, the price is right.
What driver training would be required? There won't be much difference from a 318 or 320 on electric or a 150 on diesel- perhaps just a short conversion course?
Absolutely not going to see any 769s on the Ayr - Prestwick shuttles. South Ayrshire Council are due to hand back control of the station and rail infrastructure in the next 2 to 3 weeks, which will mean a reintroduction of electric services.
I highly suspect that the 2 x 769s at Brodie Engineering will make an appearance on the new Levenmouth line.
collosus
Member
769s for scotrail it’s actually a great idea I,d say that they could replace some of their trains for extra capacity
769s for ScotRail would be horrific in Leven's case. Just because you can squeeze in 5 or so miles of electric running on a 50 mile route, doesn't mean that you should if it is at the expense of sinking cash into an 80s built rust bucket that won't last the decade. Seems more like a principle proposal of using wires at all costs rather than going with something more sensible and lasting.
After the HST fiasco I see ScotRail learning their lesson for once. 769s for technology testing I can understand. But in passenger service, especially in Fife rather than as an inter-workable short-term filler in Strathclyde? God no.
After the HST fiasco I see ScotRail learning their lesson for once. 769s for technology testing I can understand. But in passenger service, especially in Fife rather than as an inter-workable short-term filler in Strathclyde? God no.
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stevieinselby
Member
Random spot check for a day last week showed 13 HST sets in use.
hexagon789
Veteran Member
15 is quite common now, sometimes even 16.
AlastairFraser
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I'm not sure it would be long term - surely it is just to fill in for a shortage of other units until the battery/OHLE hybrid units arrive?
So in reality they would be a temporary measure that ran until they fall apart?
Depends where you identify the shortage. There isn't a mass shortage at the minute. Unless it is decided that the HSTs need binned, but there's no sign of that happening any time soon.
AlastairFraser
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I mean, that sounds like more of a Northern Rail speciality, but I don't think it would be a terrible idea. They could always hire in a few off lease DMUs if it doesn't work out.
Perhaps they know more about a potential marked decline in HST reliability - I'm sure their reasoning will come to light soon.
Very much doubt they'd even consider using 769s to replace HSTs. HST availability is quite good at the moment, but there's plenty going on in the background to accelerate their replacement and withdrawal from service.
Anniesland services seem to be the best fit for any 769 usage, as they'll free up diesel units.
Climb out of Queen St on electric and change over to diesel at Cowlairs on the chord would work.
I could see them get used to Kilmarnock too, the changeover at Barrhead.