GWML / Elizabeth line disruption due to OLE down near Paddington

[TrainSailing]

Is there absolutely no where else on the Elizabeth line tunnels that trains could have been turned around? The whole line as far as I can tell was shut from Paddington to Abbey Wood.

I don't think this is really good enough, obviously it's a catastrophic failure west of Pad, but they could at least run a limited service elsewhere? I understand not wanting to put Shenfield trains in the tunnels, but for nearly £20bn I would expect a tad more resilience than closing everything.

There are places trains can be reversed in the tunnels however the main problem is having the drivers in the right place to run them. It’s very difficult to run an unplanned ‘shuttle service’ when drivers are massively misplaced due to the disruption, need breaks, have passed or are approaching book off time and need to get back to their home depot.

They would have known within seconds that it wasn't an incident at say West drayton , I could understand the power being off upto ealing broadway , but they should have kept the power on for as much as the GWML as possible even to allow trains to stop in platforms west of ealing broadway and to stop the incident escalating by having self detrainments away from the incident site

They can’t just pick and choose sections to leave the power on and off it doesn’t quite work like that. There is only one neutral section between Pad and Reading which is at Maidenhead. So if the power goes out at Ladbroke Grove it’s out all the way to Maidenhead. I do believe individual lines can be turned on/off ie. Up/down mains and reliefs separately but the length of the switch off has to be between neutral sections. Somebody please correct me if I’m wrong.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Surprised the line had to be fully isolated out to Maidenhead.

Doesn’t the nuclear blast proof OLE west of Airport Jct have the ability to isolate per line? Or is this only west of Maidenhead where everything is Series 1?

 

[Horizon22]

I have no doubt about that but ultimately when people are stuck in the cold and dark for that long, no matter how good a reason it is, they're going to take matters into their own hands. The railway has a track record of not delivering for customers and whilst 99% of us on this forum know that Network Rail and/or TOCs will sort it out the general public likely won't trust them to do so.

Of course but you said “nothing had been learned from Lewisham”. Which of course isn’t the case but does not necessarily prevent uncontrolled evacuations, despite the best efforts of everyone involved.

Seems bonkers to me that one incident takes out the power over such a long stretch of line.

Surprised the line had to be fully isolated out to Maidenhead.

Doesn’t the nuclear blast proof OLE west of Airport Jct have the ability to isolate per line? Or is this only west of Maidenhead where everything is Series 1?

Think it was more a safety precaution than anything as the power can definitely be isolated to shorter sections, but there also may have been some significant damage. Hayes and Harlington is one cut off as is Maidenhead.

 

[Samzino]

Morning peak will be quite difficult due to the mess this evening. Units that were stuck in the cos and unable to stable at old oak common have been moved to WWC and Canary Wharf to stable there.

I assume now planners will have to figure out if they'll be running shuttles or trying to run somewhat to timetable with the issue being where the first train of the day will begin from as it definitely will not be from Plumstead depot.

If the train remain where they are at platforms then also arrangements from drivers to be taken to those stations and the relevant station staff made aware as the drivers won't have keys to these stations which don't necessarily have keypad codes to gain access.

There will be some head racking thru the night with the relevant parties involved in the service planning but the general consensus will be to use alternative transport where possible come service opening.

 

[Dan G]

Being left on a train that's steadily becoming colder and darker is Not Good, but on the other hand I imagine locating a suitable exit point from the railway and organising onwards travel for ~1,000, times multiple, is no small task.

Imagine a thousand people trying to climb over railway fencing, ending up in back gardens, deciding to walk(!) the rest of their journey...

 

[TrainSailing]

Freight locos help out passengers trains quite often, NWR will request assistance from freight companies. If they have drivers available they will assist.
All stock, **should** have emergency couplers on the train.
The railways act 1994 is irrelevant to how this evening has been handled.

345s have emergency couplers which are ridiculously located in one of the central carriages underneath some passenger seats. Imagine trying to retrieve that on a stranded train packed with 1000 passengers.

 

[Dan G]

Surprised the line had to be fully isolated out to Maidenhead.

Doesn’t the nuclear blast proof OLE west of Airport Jct have the ability to isolate per line? Or is this only west of Maidenhead where everything is Series 1?

It was only briefly, please read

I’m pretty sure they got the power back onto areas very quick, out of all the trains between Paddington and Maidenhead, there was only 4 trains stranded without power, all within the Ladbroke Grove/Paddington area.
The self evacuations were from these trains, not on trains west of Acton Mainline/Ealing Broadway.

 

[DanNCL]

Of course but you said “nothing had been learned from Lewisham”. Which of course isn’t the case but does not necessarily prevent uncontrolled evacuations, despite the best efforts of everyone involved.

I said at first glance it looked like nothing had been learned from Lewisham but it's difficult to comment without knowing the full details. That's not the same thing.

 

[800001]

345s have emergency couplers which are ridiculously located in one of the central carriages underneath some passenger seats. Imagine trying to retrieve that on a stranded train packed with 1000 passengers.

The worst possible place to put them

 

[Agent_Squash]

It was only briefly, please read

It’s a long thread - apologies I missed it…

Being left on a train that's steadily becoming colder and darker is Not Good, but on the other hand I imagine locating a suitable exit point from the railway and organising onwards travel for ~1,000, times multiple, is no small task.

Imagine a thousand people trying to climb over railway fencing, ending up in back gardens, deciding to walk(!) the rest of their journey...

Plans should be in place so passengers are off before the emergency batteries die, surely.

Moderator note: discussion regarding proposals to increase battery power supply capacity is continued at the link below:

How to mitigate the effects of stranded trains in future incidents

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/gwml-elizabeth-line-disruption-due-to-ole-down-near-paddington.258947/#post-6531712 With the number of overhead line equipment (OHLE) failures on the Great Western Main Line (GWML), perhaps the case for a 'Thunderbird' stationed...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Horizon22]

It’s a long thread - apologies I missed it…



Plans should be in place so passengers are off before the emergency batteries die, surely.

It depends what you mean by “batteries die”. Trains load shed so passenger information systems are turned off first, then safety critical systems (like GSMR) then heating and lighting. That is often 90 minutes. And yes ideally, evacuations should be done before then.

If it was just one train, the 90 minute threshold might have been met. There were more than 5 (including GWR, Heathrow Express and Elizabeth line).

 

[800001]

It’s a long thread - apologies I missed it…



Plans should be in place so passengers are off before the emergency batteries die, surely.

Unsure of how long batteries on 345s last with no power, but you need to get many staff to site to supervise and assist people off the train, you all so need a person stood every so many metres on the track guiding people to where they will exit track (someone will know a lot better than me how many people minimum are needed).

That’s takes time to get there! They also can’t evacuate if the area is unsafe, the wires were down around a train, that wire can still carry residual current, so a team need to make that area safe. That all takes time.

How long should a modern battery be able to last? How long is a piece of string.

 

[Agent_Squash]

It depends what you mean by “batteries die”. Trains load shed so passenger information systems are turned off first, then safety critical systems (like GSMR) then heating and lighting. That is often 90 minutes. And yes ideally, evacuations should be done before then.

If it was just one train, the 90 minute threshold might have been met. There were more than 5 (including GWR, Heathrow Express and Elizabeth line).

Bluntly - on a DOO train, why is the passenger information system being load shedded first?

LCDs/PA systems don’t use much power, and keeping passengers informed massively reduces the risk of an emergency egress.

Surprised that modern PIS systems don’t have their own separate battery backups, especially because they are updated over the air anyway. I know you won’t get the 10 hours+ of a phone but it’s better than what seems to be the case now.

Unsure of how long batteries on 345s last with no power, but you need to get many staff to site to supervise and assist people off the train, you all so need a person stood every so many metres on the track guiding people to where they will exit track (someone will know a lot better than me how many people minimum are needed).

That’s takes time to get there! They also can’t evacuate if the area is unsafe, the wires were down around a train, that wire can still carry residual current, so a team need to make that area safe. That all takes time.

How long should a modern battery be able to last? How long is a piece of string.

Thanks for this detailed explanation!

 

[ijmad]

Why are the EL sidings at Westbourne Park not electrically isolated from the GWML? Surely this would be sensible as it'd allow the core service to continue. I thought the whole point of auto reverse and all that stuff was so the core service could run when the GWML was blocked.

 

[Daniel]

Lots of talk around decisions which could or couldn't have been taken regarding providing a service, which I suppose we don't know the answer to without knowing what reversing points have what routes available from them, where the traction current / isolation sections start/end to allow traction current (OLE) to be provided, and what sections of EL allows bi-di working. I did note an earlier post stating that single line working is not a quick thing to implement - that's correct, but if a guideway is bi-directional it's not true single line working in that sense as it's fully signalled moves in both directions... but anyway.

However, all of that beside - surely we can all agree that incidents on the national rail network seem to put a lot less effort into the timely recovery of customers on board stalled trains than those on London Underground? Whilst I know that the NR network usually has the benefit of the excuse (for want of a better word) of being in more remote locations, but clearly today that wasn't the case. London Underground aims to have customers off of 'stalled' trains within 60 minutes - I dread to think the phone calls that would be occurring on LU if customers were still aboard after 3 hours! Again I see the posts around the need to get enough competent staff on site to manage the evacuation, and I hear that - but then I watch videos on twitter of customers in a 'managed' evacuation, with multiple doorways opened and no staff adjacent, sitting on the ledge to jump down with no ladders in situ nor staff to visibly offer assistance. I stress that wasn't during a self-detrainment, this was during the mass walk to the access point. Just looking at the video, it does not look like 3+ hours has been sent getting resources to site. There is no visible headcount of customers off the train nor monitoring of them leaving the train with a, what, 1.5m drop, to make sure no-one becomes injured.

One aspect where LU could still strive to improve is the provision or assistance with onward transport once customers are released from stalled trains... however I do feel that NR have a lot to learn in this area too. I'm reminded of a video on twitter recently on Southern where a MOM was video'd on a stalled train, telling customers about to be transferred to a rescue train, that they would be taken to the next station where they would "have to make their own arrangements from there". Sure, it may well be true, but there doesn't seem to be much thought around communicating effectively with people who have been stranded for a significant amount of time with little to no information (as in both incidents the trains had load-shed and had no PA available).

Yet again, a poor show it seems, with staff and customers both losing out here.

 

[FGW_DID]

Nothing like a couple of stranded trains and a dewirement to bring the armchair experts out of the woodwork in force! Perhaps as a money saving cost NR & the TOCS can do away with expensive control centers and all the associated controllers and just have an "Armchair Expert Hotline", Incidents would be over in a matter of mere minutes!!

 

[Daniel]

Nothing like a couple of stranded trains and a dewirement to bring the armchair experts out of the woodwork in force! Perhaps as a money saving cost NR & the TOCS can do away with expensive control centers and all the associated controllers and just have an "Armchair Expert Hotline", Incidents would be over in a matter of mere minutes!!

I'll assume the armchair expert reference wasn't to me, but I could instead suggest that instead of an "Armchair Expert Hotline" NR and the TOCs could simply consider the sharing of best practice between railways, and cease the viewpoint that "this is the way we've always done it" is a valid reason for decision making

 

[Class93]

I'll assume the armchair expert reference wasn't to me, but I could instead suggest that instead of an "Armchair Expert Hotline" NR and the TOCs could simply consider the sharing of best practice between railways, and cease the viewpoint that "this is the way we've always done it" is a valid reason for decision making

It’s unfortunately a defensive position often taken, when someone makes a legitimate challenge to ’the way its always been done’.

Whilst an avid enthusiast, if I saw the train wasn’t going anywhere in an OLE down situation, would it be unreasonable to leave the train? Especially if it’s a fully electrified service, I’d take my chances providing I missed a turbo going past me..

 

[Somewhere]

I think it’s more of a lack of decision making. I don’t know the ins and outs of it but if the OHLE is down, that’s clearly not going to be a five minute job. LUL are very good at decision making at early points to get trains moving or detrained.

LUL have staff at stations
Those staff are trained to go trackside

 

[Class93]

LUL have staff at stations
Those staff are trained to go trackside

Understood, but if an IET has had its windscreen smashed in and is immovable with a cable (that has Been isolated) trailing around, then it’s clear it needs to be detrained. Mucking around trying to sort something out - as one may say ‘putting off the inevitable’ - simply makes another Lewisham possible. Quick decision making, with robust contingency planning is essential.

 

[Daniel]

LUL have staff at stations
Those staff are trained to go trackside

Disputable on both points but that's another conversation!

However the decision making aspect still applies here. Staff at stations, when staffed and competent to access the track, do not do so until they are directed by Service Control Centres.

It does seem to be the general consensus that the decision to facilitate an authorised detrainment is generally taken hours sooner for LU than when on NR, even in cases such as today where as it felt somewhat inevitable as an outcome

 

[Samzino]

Looks like the Elizabeth Line's first morning Train may start from Canary Wharf. 9T24 the usual first westbound service to T5 from Abbey Wood is showing and cabed on Platform B but I'd assume it may leave empty.

Stations on the COS may not open till the there is confidence the service won't just grind yo a halt again shortly so 9T24 I'd assume with 9Y26(At woolwich) may just run westbound as test trains and only pick up late into COS running or starting from Ealing Broadway for 9T24

 

[74A]

It looks like there is no access to North Pole depot. No IET services have left Paddington this morning as of 0630. One service from Oxford has just arrived.

 

[Jamiescott1]

It looks like there is no access to North Pole depot. No IET services have left Paddington this morning as of 0630. One service from Oxford has just arrived.

Just been through Acton. Can't see any damage as too dark.


I'm on an EL train from maidenhead, heading towards Paddington.
Very lightly loaded. Even for a Friday.

 

[Taunton]

Who remembers all the hoopla and self-congratulation shortly before the Liz Line opened of the "immaculately organised" emergency evacuation of an immobile train, done between Woolwich and Custom House, where they had several hundred volunteers take part. Whatever happened to those procedures, which seem to have gone out of the window?

Ah, here it is on YouTube:

 

[Anonymous10]

If the train is tangled in fallen wires it's not going anywhere even if it could propel itself.


The GWR strike prevented one single loco from being used to assist. Plenty of other diesel locos will have been in the London area from freight operators not on strike and emergency coupler adapters could have been used.


I have no doubt about that but ultimately when people are stuck in the cold and dark for that long, no matter how good a reason it is, they're going to take matters into their own hands. The railway has a track record of not delivering for customers and whilst 99% of us on this forum know that Network Rail and/or TOCs will sort it out the general public likely won't trust them to do so.


They certainly do in the North East. Even Nexus have adapters for emergency rescue of Metro units by a mainline loco, not that such a rescue has ever actually happened.

It wouldn't help that train but could have helped to keep power for longer.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Who remembers all the hoopla and self-congratulation shortly before the Liz Line opened of the "immaculately organised" emergency evacuation of an immobile train, done between Woolwich and Custom House, where they had several hundred volunteers take part. Whatever happened to those procedures, which seem to have gone out of the window?

Ah, here it is on YouTube:

Let’s be real though, evacuating in the COS is a completely different scenario than the GWML - especially with the side walkways in the tunnels!

 

[Snow1964]

Lots of talk around decisions which could or couldn't have been taken regarding providing a service, which I suppose we don't know the answer to without knowing what reversing points have what routes available from them, where the traction current / isolation sections start/end to allow traction current (OLE) to be provided, and what sections of EL allows bi-di working.

There are:

• scissors crossovers in the reversing sidings at Ladbroke Grove (sidings between running lines)
• scissors crossovers in the tunnel between Royal Oak and Paddington (for use if line is blocked in the open, west of Paddington as per last night)
• a trailing connection between Tottenham Court Road and Farringdon (Fisher Street crossover), so could run limited service to TCR from East and reverse there
• a trailing connection between Liverpool Street and Whitechapel (Whitechapel crossover)
• crossovers (both ways) between Victoria Dock portal and Custom House (Custom House West), to enable a service if line is blocked between Custom House and Woolwich
• a trailing crossover east of Custom House, to enable service east of Custom House if blockage in City section

All lines are fully signalled for bi-directional running, so there is no question of running unsignalled wrong line working.

 

[Acton1991]

I wonder how @Acton1991 is getting on amidst all this!

What a night! Sat in total darkness for about 3.5 hours. No announcements either from the driver, so no one onboard knew what was going on. I am very surprised that these new trains have no emergency lighting system if all power fails.

A few passengers did open doors to go to the toilet, and once we saw passengers being walked up the tracks, doors were opened by passengers and everyone was jumping out.

Ended up leaving the tracks in Ladbroke Grove, with no staff there to help, so hundreds of passengers trying to get cabs, Ubers etc - it was a sight to see.

Have to say it was very poorly managed by Network Rail and others - no communication at all or support for those who were then off the train trying to get to their final destination.

 

[Taunton]

a scissors crossover in the tunnel between Royal Oak and Paddington (for use if line is blocked in the open, west of Paddington as per last night)

Are we to believe that although crossovers are provided here (you thump over them right at the tunnel portal) it can't be electrically isolated there from the main line, so cannot serve their intended purpose?