GWR Class 165/166 air conditioning / use of hopper windows

[gallafent]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/gwr-class-165-166-turbo-diagrams.157030

2F26 is due shortly I'll snip it.View attachment 99964
Well the diagram is now a 166. Must have swapped it somewhere.

I notice very nearly all the hopper windows are open. Air-con not working then? In all three carriages? Nice. They are locked shut these days, right, so that only traincrew can open them? It was insane for years on the Thames Valley when people would just open them with the levers despite the signs asking them not to, so the air-con was desperately pouring cold air out of the ceiling, and being completely defeated by the hot air blasting in through the open windows. It was really ridiculous, and led to me being quite careful to take only HST diagrams …

 

[fgwrich]

I notice very nearly all the hopper windows are open. Air-con not working then? In all three carriages? Nice. They are locked shut these days, right, so that only traincrew can open them? It was insane for years on the Thames Valley when people would just open them with the levers despite the signs asking them not to, so the air-con was desperately pouring cold air out of the ceiling, and being completely defeated by the hot air blasting in through the open windows. It was really ridiculous, and led to me being quite careful to take only HST diagrams …

The Air Con in those things has always been frankly rubbish, and rarely actually working. In the latter years, any sign of the windows being locked was almost a myth and a lot of them were either left unlocked and openable or simply open. I took a handful of the fleet last week on the Cardiff Portsmouth route, and almost all of the 166s were suffering. A mix of the Air Cooled (and now supposedly locked) 165 windows were open as well, suggesting that wasn't coping particularly well either.

 

[gallafent]

A mix of the Air Cooled (and now supposedly locked) 165 windows were open as well, suggesting that wasn't coping particularly well either.

Interesting, my experience of this system on Chiltern's 165s (which have the windows replaced, no hoppers to open!) is that it “always works”, I've never been in one which wasn't working.

 

[JonathanH]

A mix of the Air Cooled (and now supposedly locked) 165 windows were open as well, suggesting that wasn't coping particularly well either.

Or suggesting that the windows had been opened regardless of whether the air cooling was working or not.

It does seem strange that the same system (on 165s) has worked for many years on Chiltern without the need for opening windows and yet windows on GWR 165s get opened.

 

[northernbelle]

Or suggesting that the windows had been opened regardless of whether the air cooling was working or not.

Indeed - often the case. The air cooling system is about the most reliable of any train out there. I'm yet to experience a defective one.

 

[banjo125]

Indeed, one can sit on a good air-cooled 165 & some passengers get on & the first thing they go for is to open the window, which as most know doesn't help anything.

 

[JonathanH]

Indeed, one can sit on a good air-cooled 165 & some passengers get on & the first thing they go for is to open the window, which as most know doesn't help anything.

To some extent the same thing always used to happen with 166s even if the air conditioning was working.

 

[Recessio]

I got on a Turbo at Gomshall last week, all the hoppers were open in one half of the middle carriage (hot), closed in the other half (functioning AC).

Don't understand why the hoppers would be open if there was functioning AC in the carriage. Can only assume they'd been left open. I went round and closed them all and by the end of my journey the whole carriage was AC cool.

They just need to lock the hoppers...

 

[JonathanH]

They just need to lock the hoppers...

They have locks on them! Someone opens the locks.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They have locks on them! Someone opens the locks.

I have certainly opened them on 166s, the aircon plain does not work. My house key fits them.

 

[JonathanH]

I have certainly opened them on 166s, the aircon plain does not work.

Opening the window doesn't make it work any better. The original system used to put out hot air from the ceiling once the windows were open.

 

[fgwrich]

Or suggesting that the windows had been opened regardless of whether the air cooling was working or not.

It does seem strange that the same system (on 165s) has worked for many years on Chiltern without the need for opening windows and yet windows on GWR 165s get opened.

Nope, I left Portsmouth Habour in the 165 and that was roasting hot. No Air Cooling. Dead. I switched into the 166 on the rear, again, no Air Con and a very very unhappy and bothered engine on the centre car. The way the set was being driven also suggested that something was up with it, from 0 to full revs upon departure at every stop.

They have locks on them! Someone opens the locks.

I have certainly opened them on 166s, the aircon plain does not work. My house key fits them.

Two points : Not only does my house key fit them, but the locks are that naff that I often found they used to undo themselves. A unit with some bad vibration (hunting engine, worn transmission etc) and pressure from passing trains all added up and sometimes they've just open themselves. If they were as confident in the system as Chiltern is, and if they could stop being so tight over spending on the utterly dire Turbo fleet, then they should have removed the openable windows altogether and done a Chiltern with them. Perhaps, as I suspect it is, it comes down to the maintenance of said unit and system. Years of Yellow and black tape at Reading, passed on to Bristol.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Opening the window doesn't make it work any better. The original system used to put out hot air from the ceiling once the windows were open.

Opening the window absolutely did make it better, because moving air at 32 degrees Celsius (yes, it did get that hot inside in summer sometimes) is marginally more tolerable than static or near-static air at that temperature.

Unless something big has been done to it in the years since I was last a regular, it was basically useless when the outside temperature went above mid to high 20s.

 

[Envoy]

Sounds to me like hopeless 158’s have been replaced with 165/166’s also with no good air con? Best to stick with my car where the air con does work and I can avoid other people.

 

[Stigy]

Opening the window doesn't make it work any better. The original system used to put out hot air from the ceiling once the windows were open.

No it doesn’t, but when the so called Air Con is blowing warm air, the breeze it very welcome.

Nope, I left Portsmouth Habour in the 165 and that was roasting hot. No Air Cooling. Dead. I switched into the 166 on the rear, again, no Air Con and a very very unhappy and bothered engine on the centre car. The way the set was being driven also suggested that something was up with it, from 0 to full revs upon departure at every stop.

Sounds like you were on the one that was failed twice last week….no A/C and and engine fault. Was failed due to A/C, tested at a depot at night and said to be okay (because it wasn’t 30° heat at night….), then put back in to service. It was then failed the next day for the same thing.

 

[fgwrich]

No it doesn’t, but when the so called Air Con is blowing warm air, the breeze it very welcome.


Sounds like you were on the one that was failed twice last week….no A/C and and engine fault. Was failed due to A/C, tested at a depot at night and said to be okay (because it wasn’t 30° heat at night….), then put back in to service. It was then failed the next day for the same thing.

Ah, the old test it in the depot at night and NFF / chuck it back out and watch it fail again move. Sigh. And some would have us believe that they are super duper uber reliable without actually using them day in day out. It's a shame videos can't be put on here as I did record a few video of the 166s very rough engine. All in all, my trips on them last week presented a very poor image of GWR, tatty uncared for Turbos with very few working PA systems, Toilets or Air Conditioning.

 

[northernbelle]

Sounds to me like hopeless 158’s have been replaced with 165/166’s also with no good air con? Best to stick with my car where the air con does work and I can avoid other people.

The 166 air con is questionable as it has been from the day they were new - the 165s with their retro-fitted air cooling are far better - it's very reliable equipment. Nothing is infallible though and if the vehicle has an engine out then the a/c will follow, but that's a reflection on engine reliability rather than the air cooling itself.

 

[gallafent]

if the vehicle has an engine out then the a/c will follow, but that's a reflection on engine reliability rather than the air cooling itself.

Ah, interesting, I guess in trains this old there isn't enough “aux power” or whatever it's called when power is fed along the train rather than direct from that carriage's diesel engine, to run the air cooler. Do the lights stay on in a carriage with an engine out, or does it really go into “sleep mode” with most lights switched off etc. — are these even running from battery in this case?

Suddenly I'm thinking that a 769 (fitted with air cooling … which they are, aren't they? Anyone have experience of how well that works, if so?) in which the power is distributed throughout the train electrically, wherever it came from in the first place, is a superior design indeed!

 

[Kez]

Indeed, one can sit on a good air-cooled 165 & some passengers get on & the first thing they go for is to open the window, which as most know doesn't help anything.

It does. It helps to refresh and replenish air which prevents the build-up of viruses such as SARS-CoV-2. Does anyone know whether the circulation of air in a 165/166 involves suitable air filtration to remove such viruses ? I know the pandemic is over and everything, but you might have thought there were lessons to be learned regarding air quality in enclosed spaces.

 

[Stigy]

Ah, interesting, I guess in trains this old there isn't enough “aux power” or whatever it's called when power is fed along the train rather than direct from that carriage's diesel engine, to run the air cooler. Do the lights stay on in a carriage with an engine out, or does it really go into “sleep mode” with most lights switched off etc. — are these even running from battery in this case?

Suddenly I'm thinking that a 769 (fitted with air cooling … which they are, aren't they? Anyone have experience of how well that works, if so?) in which the power is distributed throughout the train electrically, wherever it came from in the first place, is a superior design indeed!

It’s no different to a car in that the A/C runs off the engine as far as I’m aware. So if an engine fails, the A/C stops working. The lights will also revert to emergency lighting.

Ah, the old test it in the depot at night and NFF / chuck it back out and watch it fail again move. Sigh. And some would have us believe that they are super duper uber reliable without actually using them day in day out. It's a shame videos can't be put on here as I did record a few video of the 166s very rough engine. All in all, my trips on them last week presented a very poor image of GWR, tatty uncared for Turbos with very few working PA systems, Toilets or Air Conditioning.

They’re generally in very poor order. Stuff falls off and they look tatty and dirty (even the one(s) that have had a refurb). I guess generally speaking, bearing in mind the mileages they do, the engines are reliable. They’re quirky too. Sometimes things will fail and we don’t know why, but you “turn it off and back on again” and it’s fine.

 

[Paul Jones 88]

I prefer open windows on them and other trains, 375 yesterday no air-conditioning but open window, very pleasant journey.

 

[FenMan]

The 166 air con is questionable as it has been from the day they were new - the 165s with their retro-fitted air cooling are far better - it's very reliable equipment. Nothing is infallible though and if the vehicle has an engine out then the a/c will follow, but that's a reflection on engine reliability rather than the air cooling itself.

In my experience (North Downs Line) the refurbed air-cooled 165s are normally far more comfortable in hot weather than the 166s ever were. Yes, it doesn't always work as per spec but the reliability is pretty good.

 

[Deepgreen]

My daily use of the Turbos on the NDL ceased years ago, thank goodness, but it was much more common then to find the air-con not working than working. My 'J' key was useful on hot days but they now have different locks, I think, and the guard opens them as he/she sees fit. The one I travelled on the other day had it working very well, but it was a cool day. My experience was that the hotter the day, the less reliable the air-con - the opposite of the required performance! My overall impression of the Turbos is that they have more or less been abandoned in terms of maintenance of the internal fabric too - often dirty, arm-rests very badly torn, mini-tables loose or missing, etc. The internal DMIs are also just as bad as in my commuting days - the one I was on the other day told us we were approaching Redhill long after we had left there!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ah, interesting, I guess in trains this old there isn't enough “aux power” or whatever it's called when power is fed along the train rather than direct from that carriage's diesel engine, to run the air cooler. Do the lights stay on in a carriage with an engine out, or does it really go into “sleep mode” with most lights switched off etc. — are these even running from battery in this case?

The Sprinter classes don't have any kind of power cross-feed, so if an engine is out in a given coach it doesn't have any power and so reverts to the batteries. I don't know if Turbos are different but it wouldn't surprise me if they were the same.

My daily use of the Turbos on the NDL ceased years ago, thank goodness, but it was much more common then to find the air-con not working than working. My 'J' key was useful on hot days but they now have different locks, I think, and the guard opens them as he/she sees fit. The one I travelled on the other day had it working very well, but it was a cool day. My experience was that the hotter the day, the less reliable the air-con - the opposite of the required performance!

A number of years ago I did a stint of commuting to Slough and I'm not sure I ever found a unit with it working properly.

 

[O L Leigh]

I massively hate retrofit A/C systems. They were a pain on the Cl317/7s I used to drive, and the majority of the issues were, I'm sorry to report, caused by passengers opening the hopper vents, which I know from bitter experience not theoretical knowledge.

To explain:

I'd get a passenger come and tell me the A/C is broken because it's blowing out hot air (as a number of people have claimed in this thread). I ask which coach and 99 times out of 100 they'd indicate the one with all the windows open. So I'd go down and close them all along with the doors. One round trip later the A/C is blowing nice and cool and the passengers are nicely chilled and comfortable.

The problem? Well, the coach thermostats reside inside the ceiling panels along with the rest of the A/C gubbins, which makes sense. Johnny Q Public comes along and opens a vent for no good reason other than it's a nice sunny day outside. The air blast that enters the coach does so at ceiling height, travelling along the ceiling panels and hitting the coach thermostat. This tricks the thermostat into thinking that the coach is too cold and the A/C switches from cooling to heating. The ambient temperature rises and more vents are opened further exacerbating the problem and giving the punters the impression that the A/C is broken when in fact it is working perfectly.

I remonstrated with fleet about the need to seal up the hopper vents on those units to no avail. In the end I took the view that the passengers did it to themselves so they could suffer the consequences. They didn't want to know what the real solution was nor cooperate with me by keeping doors and windows closed. No, they knew better and I was wrong because to them the A/C was broken. Whoever it was that specified the Chiltern Cl165 conversion should be commended.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is what then-FGW claimed was the case on the 166s, they then locked the hoppers. Unfortunately it wasn't the case, it was the case that the system couldn't cope with an outside temperature of more than about 25 degrees or so. It would say reduce 30 degrees to about 26-27 when fully working, but that was still intolerable compared with moving 30 degree air with the windows open.

 

[JonathanH]

This is what then-FGW claimed was the case on the 166s, they then locked the hoppers. Unfortunately it wasn't the case, it was the case that the system couldn't cope with an outside temperature of more than about 25 degrees or so. It would say reduce 30 degrees to about 26-27 when fully working, but that was still intolerable compared with moving 30 degree air with the windows open.

But what you are describing is exactly the general ignorance of the public about what air conditioning does and how the system is not helped by opening windows. The problem is that with four ventilators on each side of the coach in a 166, it isn't enough to cool down all the people aboard but appears to be enough to make the system worse.

The ventilators typically get opened before the system is intolerable - eg I used to get on a 166 straight off the depot when I commuted on them and find the windows open or they would get open early in the day because someone had run for the train.

Part of the problem would certainly seem to be that hopper ventilators direct air to the wrong place.

 

[Deepgreen]

Opening the window doesn't make it work any better. The original system used to put out hot air from the ceiling once the windows were open.

No, it doesn't, but if the coach is already sweltering and the system is not even running, what choice is there?

 

[O L Leigh]

This is what then-FGW claimed was the case on the 166s, they then locked the hoppers. Unfortunately it wasn't the case, it was the case that the system couldn't cope with an outside temperature of more than about 25 degrees or so. It would say reduce 30 degrees to about 26-27 when fully working, but that was still intolerable compared with moving 30 degree air with the windows open.

But by opening the vents all you are ensuring is that the system will fail to cope.

The problem seems to be that the majority of passengers are unwilling to even give the system a chance and assume that when they step onto an A/C train and it doesn't feel like stepping into a commercial fridge it's because the A/C isn't working. And it isn't just passengers either. Relieving other drivers I have noticed that no cab is cold enough in the summer or hot enough in the winter, with the cab HVAC controls set to either full heat or full A/C.

No, it doesn't, but if the coach is already sweltering and the system is not even running, what choice is there?

That is a somewhat different matter. But experience shows that a system that is blowing hot is doing so because the vents have been opened.

 

[gallafent]

It’s no different to a car in that the A/C runs off the engine as far as I’m aware.

I was thinking “hmm, in my (2007) car, the air con pump is electric” … but of course here we're talking about hardware that's over a decade older than that … so yes, makes sense I guess!

Whoever it was that specified the Chiltern Cl165 conversion should be commended.

Absolutely. The key point being that the hopper windows were completely removed. Vital to prevent passengers that know best from preventing it from working!