GWR Class 769 information. (Units no longer with GWR - Off Lease March 23)

[pokemonsuper9]

So are these just going into storage or are they going for scrap?
Not much point keeping them around if they aren't gonna see use but what I can see they're for storage.

 

[JonathanH]

what I can see they're for storage

They are back with their owners, Porterbrook, who happen to have a storage facility. It will now be up to Porterbrook to decide to do with them.

They may wish to make their own component recovery if there is something of value on the 769s. Other 319s have recently been sent for scrap after a period of storage.

 

[FenMan]

Yes. Not only was it not needed, but there was a realisation that the availability of 769s would be less than originally hoped.

3tph on the North Downs is needed. A 2tph schedule from Reading to Gatwick is a game-changer for those using public transport to get to/from Gatwick = no longer having to plan to arrive extremely early outbound or kicking your heels for an hour inbound. Hopwood is on the record as saying the North Downs has been one of the top performers post the pandemic, while Gatwick is pretty much operating at capacity again.

The pre-COVID business case was sound (and Network Rail has already spent the money to make the infrastructure improvements so it could happen). Yep, rolling stock has been and is the issue. Also the HM Treasury continues to strongly prefer least cost v best value, as accountants always do when cornered. But, the business case continues to be sound. I get it it it's unlikely to happen while the Turbos chug up and down the line, but surely planning for what happens next is already underway, given the long lead times endemic to the industry?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Yes. Not only was it not needed

Speak for yourself, will you? I, living close to North Camp, certainly disagree with that.

 

[JonathanH]

A 2tph schedule from Reading to Gatwick is a game-changer

Yes, I agree, but that doesn't, of itself, need 3tph to run between Reading and Redhill.

Speak for yourself, will you?

I'm not speaking for myself. The 3tph plan appears to be dead. Someone has therefore decided it isn't needed.

 

[DelW]

I'm not speaking for myself. The 3tph plan appears to be dead. Someone has therefore decided it isn't needed.

Or it means that someone (presumably in the DfT) has decided it won't be funded. That doesn't mean it isn't needed though.

 

[Dan G]

Thank you @JonathanH , you seem very plugged-in!

Yes, 16 3-car 165s not available to take over services in the West. Some of the additional services that had been planned might have to use different stock. In practice, two of these 165s have been released to the West, as some services have been thinned out - eg on the North Downs.

So I guess losing the 769s ultimately means keeping 16 or so 150s in the west for a good few more years, as well as the loss of 3tph on the North Downs with better interiors and I would think, higher fuel costs and more CO2 than otherwise would have been the case.

Yeah, I can see the argument that in total the 769s were probably marginal value for money but I think it's a real shame.

 

[zwk500]

I'm not speaking for myself. The 3tph plan appears to be dead. Someone has therefore decided it isn't needed.

Tbf somebody in the DfT deciding it isn't needed doesn't mean that it isn't actually needed. You'd assume there's some basis behind pursuing 3tph in the first place.

 

[JonathanH]

So I guess losing the 769s ultimately means keeping 16 or so 150s in the west for a good few more years

The 165s released by the 769s were going to displace 150s but not cause them to leave GWR, instead there would have been service enhancements in the West. 'Clarence Yard' has confirmed that a number of times.

Tbf somebody in the DfT deciding it isn't needed doesn't mean that it isn't actually needed. You'd assume there's some basis behind pursuing 3tph in the first place.

Now expressing opinion, it isn't obvious to me that the stopper in the proposed 3tph timetable would have been well used, particularly east of Guildford.
Getting 2tph through to Gatwick is a desirable outcome if it can be done spreading the stops out.

 

[infobleep]

The enhancements would have been
* A bit more space with 80m trains rather than 69m trains
* Refreshed interiors, although Turbos have recently had this upgrade
* A train that could use the third rail or overheads where installed
* A more frequent service because the fleet size was larger than the Turbos (although those plans for 3tph on the North Downs and an extra unit on the Basingstoke route were pulled)

On the other hand there would also have been:
* Slower journeys because the performance wasn't as good as a Turbo
* Less reliable journeys as the trains were prone to failures
* Lower and less comfortable seats - many people do not like the proportions of 'Ashbourne' seats
* Not so good passenger seat layout, as the Turbo saloons are better than Mark 3 derived units
* Apparently a poorer work environment for the staff than offered by Turbos.

On balance it seems reasonable to say that LTV passengers and the staff have dodged a bullet with these trains not entering service.

I'm just looking forward to a NDL timetable change, now this is dead

They could bill it as improvements to journey times.

The 165s released by the 769s were going to displace 150s but not cause them to leave GWR, instead there would have been service enhancements in the West. 'Clarence Yard' has confirmed that a number of times.


Now expressing opinion, it isn't obvious to me that the stopper in the proposed 3tph timetable would have been well used, particularly east of Guildford.
Getting 2tph through to Gatwick is a desirable outcome if it can be done spreading the stops out.

Two would be great as currently if you miss the x29 from Gatwick Airport, the only way you will reach Reading is by catching the x32 to Redhill, followed by the stopping service to Reading. Following that one at Gatwick Airport it's another 57 minutes until the next x29. You could break your journey at Horley or even Redhill to kill time though.

This is Monday to Saturday most hours.

I would like to have caught a 769 but that's life. I won't mind the speed improvements when the timetable changes to accommodate the turbo service actual times and I'm sure people travelling on the stopper will appreciate not having to hang about at Guildford station for no good reason other than the timetable says they must.

I appreciate the reasons why this happened related to 3tph.

 

[Dan G]

I like to bottom things out and would like to know what the proposed additional services in the west were, now they have 16 fewer units going forward without the 769s. Possibly a bit off-topic though.

Actually it was the plan when the 769 scheme was authorised by the DfT. Originally 10 of the 150/2 fleet was to go north with the 2 x 150/0, leaving 10 x 150/2 units for the Cornish branches (and possibly Okehampton). The Devon metro was going to be all 3 car Turbo.

I would have loved all-Turbo on my local lines...

 

[DelW]

The enhancements would have been
* A bit more space with 80m trains rather than 69m trains
* Refreshed interiors, although Turbos have recently had this upgrade
* A train that could use the third rail or overheads where installed
* A more frequent service because the fleet size was larger than the Turbos (although those plans for 3tph on the North Downs and an extra unit on the Basingstoke route were pulled)

Your third point means that there would also have been a significant benefit in removing most or all remaining diesel emissions and noise from Gatwick, Redhill, and Guildford stations, and Reading south-eastern bays, improving air quality and cleanliness.

Plus a reduction in diesel fuel usage and pollution in the areas where Turbos are running over DC tracks.

Of course our Government only promotes cleaning up emissions if someone else is paying.

 

[Davester50]

A colleagues photo’s of the last bits of 769959 - the last GWR 769 to leave Reading TCD!

View attachment 137034

Liking the That's All Folks in the window. A reference to the project being a bit Looney Tunes?!?

 

[infobleep]

Liking the That's All Folks in the window. A reference to the project being a bit Looney Tunes?!?

Well spotted. I'd missed that.

 

[45076]

Does anyone know the whereabouts of 769925?

 

[FGW_DID]

Does anyone know the whereabouts of 769925?

It should be at Long Marston with all the rest. Apart from the ones that had been left at Reading (now all back at LM), the only one that was elsewhere was 927 which was at Wolverton but it’s unconfirmed if it’s still there or has returned to LM.

 

[stevieinselby]

The enhancements would have been
* A bit more space with 80m trains rather than 69m trains
* Refreshed interiors, although Turbos have recently had this upgrade
* A train that could use the third rail or overheads where installed
* A more frequent service because the fleet size was larger than the Turbos (although those plans for 3tph on the North Downs and an extra unit on the Basingstoke route were pulled)

The other enhancement – less relevant to the North Downs and Thames Valley in particular but for the network as a whole – would be to release a load of Networker Turbos that could be cascaded to branch lines and secondary routes in the south west, releasing Sprinters for retirement and/or allowing strengthening of services or increased frequencies around Exeter and Bristol.

 

[45076]

It should be at Long Marston with all the rest. Apart from the ones that had been left at Reading (now all back at LM), the only one that was elsewhere was 927 which was at Wolverton but it’s unconfirmed if it’s still there or has returned to LM.

thank you

 

[The_Train]

Does anyone know the whereabouts of 769925?

My records have 925 as moving to Long Marston in December 2022

 

[Deepgreen]

In summary, 3tph is dead because of a decision made at DaFT. 2tph currently has needless delays in it and a timetable change might address those issues. 165s (2 and 3 car) will be running the NDL for the foreseeable future. 3rd rail infill would be the best option but is still being blocked(?). 769s are going to storage for possible equipment salvage and then scrap. Is that a fair summary?

 

[zwk500]

In summary, 3tph is dead because of a decision made at DaFT. 2tph currently has needless delays in it and a timetable change might address those issues. 165s (2 and 3 car) will be running the NDL for the foreseebale future. 3rd rail infill would be the best option but is still being blocked(?). 769s are going to storage for possible equipment salvage and then scrap. Is that a fair summary?

Reasonable enough. A timetable change would only be able to get the 2tph back closer to a 30/30 split, 3rd Rail infill while not officially blocked won't be able to justify the costs of the safety measures required by the ORR.

 

[Deepgreen]

Reasonable enough. A timetable change would only be able to get the 2tph back closer to a 30/30 split, 3rd Rail infill while not officially blocked won't be able to justify the costs of the safety measures required by the ORR.

I'll happily take a 50/50ish split without dwell times at Guildford over the current mess.

 

[45076]

My records have 925 as moving to Long Marston in December 2022

CHEERS BUD

 

[MikePJ]

This week's RAIL magazine has a feature saying that the 769s will operate between Honeybourne and Long Marston to take visitors to the Rail Live event next week (21st/22nd June), and details are now on the event website, should you wish to go and see them running for possibly the last time!

 

[Dan G]

I reckon they'll find a new home.

 

[jackot]

I reckon they'll find a new home.

Really? If GWR over multiple years of testing couldn't get them to the point where even a small number could run a service, I doubt anyone else will want to go near them. TfW want them gone, and Northern's experience with them hasn't exactly been enviable either.

I get it is a great waste to see them go, but what would be even greater of a waste would be throwing even more money towards 35 year old units, with no promise that they will ever be capable of working as intended.

 

[JonathanH]

I get it is a great waste to see them go, but what would be even greater of a waste would be throwing even more money towards 35 year old units, with no promise that they will ever be capable of working as intended.

Not to mention that introducing 37 year old trains in 2024 doesn't give them much scope for use beyond that date. The various schedules for introducing GWR 769s have generally involved nearly a year between the first unit arriving for testing, familiarisation and training, and the last unit entering service. Moreover, most of the GWR 769s won't carried passengers for seven years by the time 2024 comes.

 

[FGW_DID]

Really? If GWR over multiple years of testing couldn't get them to the point where even a small number could run a service, I doubt anyone else will want to go near them. TfW want them gone, and Northern's experience with them hasn't exactly been enviable either.

I get it is a great waste to see them go, but what would be even greater of a waste would be throwing even more money towards 35 year old units, with no promise that they will ever be capable of working as intended.

The actual testing didn’t take very long, there were working units. There was a rolling mods program with units switching between Eastleigh & Long Marston (ASDO, air cooling etc) but probably the biggest reason the GWR sets never entered traffic was there were never any drivers trained due to no agreement with ASLEF over cab ergonomics! Even that hurdle had been overcome but then the IA reared its head and the training was kiboshed.
Had the units (that were working, some others were indeed shocking) been in regular use, it may have been a different story but we’ll never know!

 

[Deepgreen]

I reckon they'll find a new home.

Indeed they will - a scrap yard.

 

[Benjwri]

Indeed they will - a scrap yard.

I agree there are very few places in the UK that need OHLE and 3rd rail, along with diesel. Certainly don’t think we’ll see them on HS1 any time soon