GWR running Saturday Bristol - Oxford service from Sept 2024

[The Planner]

And I'd say Oxford as well.

I'm surprised in a way that the (future) Bristol to Oxford service (as I write this post) and ther current London to Oxford services don't carry on to Banbury and terminate there (or even Stratford Upon Avon which Chiltern don't seem to want anymore).

Oxford has the new down platform being built and also the opportunity to get the unit out the way as an ECS to the sidings.

 

[Falcon1200]

Oxford has the new down platform being built

Which will be a great benefit, but with trains terminating in Oxford from both the north/east and south/west it is reasonable to ponder whether and how services could be combined. Of course, different operators and rolling stock provision are issues, but IMHO a Milton Keynes/Bristol service, along with a re-opened station at Wantage Road, would be very useful.

 

[cle]

Banbury doesn’t really feel big or important enough. But this might be a great candidate for the oft-mentioned Oxford-Moor St service.

Yes that was implied to be a Chiltern thing, but extending/merging these services would offer direct Bath, Chippenham and Swindon to Birmingham links (Bristol-Brum itself would obv be too slow this way) - plus many other new pairings like Banbury and Leam/Warwick/Solihull with these. Might be interesting.

 

[Fermiboson]

I still don’t quite get what the reason is that there’s no Oxford - Moor St service - is it platform capacity at Oxford or Moor St? Line capacity on the Chiltern mainline? No spare units? Demand is definitely there - see the constantly full and standing XCs.

 

[dk1]

I still don’t quite get what the reason is that there’s no Oxford - Moor St service - is it platform capacity at Oxford or Moor St? Line capacity on the Chiltern mainline? No spare units? Demand is definitely there - see the constantly full and standing XCs.

Central Trains once tried to operate such a service and was quickly told it had no chance because of Virgin Trains moderation of competition. Same reason no other operator runs anything between Birmingham & Bristol.

 

[The Planner]

I still don’t quite get what the reason is that there’s no Oxford - Moor St service - is it platform capacity at Oxford or Moor St? Line capacity on the Chiltern mainline? No spare units? Demand is definitely there - see the constantly full and standing XCs.

Leamington to Moor St is the issue generally. You have to do a bit of shuffling to divert the via Cov XC when that route is blocked, so if the Reading Newcastle eventually is able to be diverted it opens up a path.

 

[Class 170101]

Leamington to Moor St is the issue generally. You have to do a bit of shuffling to divert the via Cov XC when that route is blocked, so if the Reading Newcastle eventually is able to be diverted it opens up a path.

But the XC service is itself a problem running via Coventry if you want to carry more freight, which the current government apparently wants, the single line sections between Leamington and Coventry are clearly a capacity restriction.

Oxford has the new down platform being built and also the opportunity to get the unit out the way as an ECS to the sidings.

Is the Down Platform reversible and thus have a crossover back to the Up towards Didcot etc? ECS moves like this to sidings still take up capacity as station staff have to check the train is empty before procedding. This seems to be quite a lengthy procedure these days. So hence the new down platform and maybe return path to Didcot...

Which will be a great benefit,

but with trains terminating in Oxford from both the north/east and south/west it is reasonable to ponder whether and how services could be combined. Of course, different operators and rolling stock provision are issues, but IMHO a Milton Keynes/Bristol service, along with a re-opened station at Wantage Road, would be very useful.

At least the north and east services have bays to terminate in. However these may not be enough with East West Rail - upto 4tph? And Chiltern is it now 2tph? Additionally if the line to Cowley re-opens () then those bays won't necessarily be fully used if services are extended here.

 

[The Planner]

But the XC service is itself a problem running via Coventry if you want to carry more freight, which the current government apparently wants, the single line sections between Leamington and Coventry are clearly a capacity restriction.

Which is well known, and the plans are to redouble Milverton Jn to Kenilworth as often discussed on here, that and any recast of the Coventry corridor post HS2 will allow the move.

Is the Down Platform reversible and thus have a crossover back to the Up towards Didcot etc? ECS moves like this to sidings still take up capacity as station staff have to check the train is empty before procedding. This seems to be quite a lengthy procedure these days. So hence the new down platform and maybe return path to Didcot...

Makes little difference, it happens now at Oxford anyway.

At least the north and east services have bays to terminate in. However these may not be enough with East West Rail - upto 4tph? And Chiltern is it now 2tph? Additionally if the line to Cowley re-opens () then those bays won't necessarily be fully used if services are extended here.

Already flagged as a constraint, you can't do 6tph off E-W in the two bays with a single lead.

 

[SJ21]

In all of the excitement of the new June 2024 timetable now in place, it appears that the two services are now showing in the WTT, as far as I can see starting on the 14/09.

Realtime Trains | Departures from Bristol Temple Meads between 0200 and 0159 on 14/09/2024

Train information at Bristol Temple Meads between 0200 and 0159 on 14/09/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[John R]

Just a reminder that this service starts this Saturday if anyone fancies trying it.

It struck me that with a few IET's being released next Summer with the introduction of the Class 175s, there are worse uses for them than a few Bristol to Oxford runs, to tie in with the launch of the Oxford to Milton Keynes service. Even if only every couple of hours, that would make a significant improvement to rail journeys along a corridor that is by no means the fastest by road.

 

[lachlan]

Just a reminder that this service starts this Saturday if anyone fancies trying it.

It struck me that with a few IET's being released next Summer with the introduction of the Class 175s, there are worse uses for them than a few Bristol to Oxford runs, to tie in with the launch of the Oxford to Milton Keynes service. Even if only every couple of hours, that would make a significant improvement to rail journeys along a corridor that is by no means the fastest by road.

I plan on visiting Oxford making use of this service later in the year. I believe the trial runs until December?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It struck me that with a few IET's being released next Summer with the introduction of the Class 175s, there are worse uses for them than a few Bristol to Oxford runs, to tie in with the launch of the Oxford to Milton Keynes service. Even if only every couple of hours, that would make a significant improvement to rail journeys along a corridor that is by no means the fastest by road.

I think many would prefer to have the return of a consistently 9/10 carriage London service, rather than something to shave a few minutes off a journey easily done with a change at Didcot Parkway. I certainly wouldn't be opposed to this service being implemented in full, but only were it not at the expense of the Londons.

 

[John R]

I think many would prefer to have the return of a consistently 9/10 carriage London service, rather than something to shave a few minutes off a journey easily done with a change at Didcot Parkway. I certainly wouldn't be opposed to this service being implemented in full, but only were it not at the expense of the Londons.

I agree the primary use of the IETs shouldn’t be deprioritised, but with the intended 2tph fast services to Bristol now ancient history, there should be some wriggle room.

And as far as the passenger proposition is concerned for a service to Milton Keynes, I’d suggest there’s a huge difference between one change at Oxford, and two changes, with that additional middle leg introducing a considerable amount of jeopardy that a connection somewhere will be missed.

 

[DaveHarries]

It struck me that with a few IET's being released next Summer with the introduction of the Class 175s [...]

Nothing been confirmed yet re. 175s to my knowledge especially seeing as they haven't yet got clearance runs done, etc. but I doubt the 175s would be suitable on Cardiff to Penzance trips or through to Taunton from Bristol TM at peak times.

The 175s could indeed be good for Newquay - Falmouth.

Dave

 

[The exile]

but I doubt the 175s would be suitable on Cardiff to Penzance trips or through to Taunton from Bristol TM at peak times.
Dave

On what grounds?

 

[gallafent]

I think many would prefer to have the return of a consistently 9/10 carriage London service, rather than something to shave a few minutes off a journey easily done with a change at Didcot Parkway. I certainly wouldn't be opposed to this service being implemented in full, but only were it not at the expense of the Londons.

I think that there are many trains each day between Oxford and Paddington for which 5 carriages are ample (I travelled on one yesterday, anectodally! ), there's definitely no need for all those services to be longer (though of course there is for some, especially, in my experience, at weekends!) ...

Separately, and to the point, it's a bigger deal than shaving a few minutes and a single change from the journey: Oxford to Bristol (Temple Meads) is often (usually?) two changes, at Didcot Parkway and Swindon, with the consequent delay risk and general inconvenience (and sometimes a single change at Reading, which makes for a more expensive ticket), and the time reduction is from ~1h31m to 1h9m. That's a big difference, reducing the journey time by about a quarter (24%). The driving time for the same route (station forecourt to station forecourt) is 1h57m, so the train easily beats that either way, but for an example door-to-door journey I take between locations in the two cities, the fastest public transport route is 2h31m (a bus and four trains, as it happens!), whereas by car it's 1h44m ... getting closer to getting me out of the car, but not there yet; reducing station to station times by such a percentage (and a higher percentage still for Swindon / Chippenham / Bath Spa, of course) is a really important improvement to the service!

And as far as the passenger proposition is concerned for a service to Milton Keynes, I’d suggest there’s a huge difference between one change at Oxford, and two changes, with that additional middle leg introducing a considerable amount of jeopardy that a connection somewhere will be missed.

Absolutely agree!

(Summary of times and prices from Oxford to Bristol Temple Meads on Saturday morning from 11:00, prices at the time of writing):

Oxford	Bristol	Changes	Duration	Price (trainsplit)
11:04	12:35	1 (DID)	91min	£29.50
11:17	13:00	1 (RDG)	103min	£39.70
11:32	13:00	2 (DID, SWI)	88m	£29.50
11:32	13:28	3 (DID, SWI, BPW)	116min	£26.19
12:03	13:12	0	69min	£29.50
12:06	13:36	1 (DID)	90min	£29.50
12:06	13:59	2 (DID, BPW)	93min	£26.19

 

[lachlan]

I think that there are many trains each day between Oxford and Paddington for which 5 carriages are ample (I travelled on one yesterday, anectodally! ), there's definitely no need for all those services to be longer (though of course there is for some, especially, in my experience, at weekends!) ...

Separately, and to the point, it's a bigger deal than shaving a few minutes and a single change from the journey: Oxford to Bristol (Temple Meads) is often (usually?) two changes, at Didcot Parkway and Swindon, with the consequent delay risk and general inconvenience (and sometimes a single change at Reading, which makes for a more expensive ticket), and the time reduction is from ~1h31m to 1h9m. That's a big difference, reducing the journey time by about a quarter (24%). The driving time for the same route (station forecourt to station forecourt) is 1h57m, so the train easily beats that either way, but for an example door-to-door journey I take between locations in the two cities, the fastest public transport route is 2h31m (a bus and four trains, as it happens!), whereas by car it's 1h44m ... getting closer to getting me out of the car, but not there yet; reducing station to station times by such a percentage (and a higher percentage still for Swindon / Chippenham / Bath Spa, of course) is a really important improvement to the service!


Absolutely agree!

(Summary of times and prices from Oxford to Bristol Temple Meads on Saturday morning from 11:00, prices at the time of writing):

Oxford	Bristol	Changes	Duration	Price (trainsplit)
11:04	12:35	1 (DID)	91min	£29.50
11:17	13:00	1 (RDG)	103min	£39.70
11:32	13:00	2 (DID, SWI)	88m	£29.50
11:32	13:28	3 (DID, SWI, BPW)	116min	£26.19
12:03	13:12	0	69min	£29.50
12:06	13:36	1 (DID)	90min	£29.50
12:06	13:59	2 (DID, BPW)	93min	£26.19

Bearing in mind as well that, despite sometimes being the quickest option, changing via Reading isn't valid for flexible tickets!

 

[Snow1964]

I think that there are many trains each day between Oxford and Paddington for which 5 carriages are ample (I travelled on one yesterday, anectodally! ), there's definitely no need for all those services to be longer (though of course there is for some, especially, in my experience, at weekends!) ...

Separately, and to the point, it's a bigger deal than shaving a few minutes and a single change from the journey: Oxford to Bristol (Temple Meads) is often (usually?) two changes, at Didcot Parkway and Swindon, with the consequent delay risk and general inconvenience (and sometimes a single change at Reading, which makes for a more expensive ticket), and the time reduction is from ~1h31m to 1h9m. That's a big difference, reducing the journey time by about a quarter (24%). The driving time for the same route (station forecourt to station forecourt) is 1h57m, so the train easily beats that either way, but for an example door-to-door journey I take between locations in the two cities, the fastest public transport route is 2h31m (a bus and four trains, as it happens!), whereas by car it's 1h44m ... getting closer to getting me out of the car, but not there yet; reducing station to station times by such a percentage (and a higher percentage still for Swindon / Chippenham / Bath Spa, of course) is a really important improvement

As someone currently on 1A18 Bristol-Paddington, reduced to 5 cars, and which resulted in a large number boarding at Bath (its first intermediate stop) having to stand even though they have advances and reservations then I am not convinced that GWR are able to price tickets to even out loadings.

The simple reason is they work on basis of operating different length (9car) trains to what they actually have available on the day (5 car), so until they fix that the dynamic pricing and customer experience do not align

 

[gallafent]

Bearing in mind as well that, despite sometimes being the quickest option, changing via Reading isn't valid for flexible tickets!

There are flexible tickets which are valid via Reading, but per the table I provided, they're substantially more expensive!

 

[Falcon1200]

Oxford to Bristol (Temple Meads) is often (usually?) two changes, at Didcot Parkway and Swindon

Didcot has an hourly service to Bristol Temple Meads, what it does not have is many services to Cardiff and Swansea. Much easier for South Wales to change at Reading, however this does as mentioned cost more; Given the inconvenient service it should not.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

As someone currently on 1A18 Bristol-Paddington, reduced to 5 cars, and which resulted in a large number boarding at Bath (its first intermediate stop) having to stand even though they have advances and reservations then I am not convinced that GWR are able to price tickets to even out loadings.

The simple reason is they work on basis of operating different length (9car) trains to what they actually have available on the day (5 car), so until they fix that the dynamic pricing and customer experience do not align

Clearly services that are planned for 9/10 cars but produce a 5-car unit on the day will be overcrowded - what does dynamic pricing have to do with it? On the day fares are generally walk up and not train-specific and usually more expensive than advances - are you suggesting GWR should only sell 5-cars-worth of advance fares on all its intercity services? (If so, don’t go into the public transport business.)

 

[signed]

Clearly services that are planned for 9/10 cars but produce a 5-car unit on the day will be overcrowded - what does dynamic pricing have to do with it? On the day fares are generally walk up and not train-specific and usually more expensive than advances - are you suggesting GWR should only sell 5-cars-worth of advance fares on all its intercity services? (If so, don’t go into the public transport business.)

In an ideal world, a Advance should automatically become something like the LNER 70-min flex (or even better Anytime/Off-Peak single) when short-forming happens. But that will never happen.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

In an ideal world, a Advance should automatically become something like the LNER 70-min flex (or even better Anytime/Off-Peak single) when short-forming happens. But that will never happen.

So if you have an Advance you have a seat reservation. Nobody will surely look for an alternative service unless they’re actually told in advance that their section of the train isn’t turning up? Not sure how that would work. Surely the 70-min flex principle only works for those without seat reservations.

 

[WelshBluebird]

So if you have an Advance you have a seat reservation. Nobody will surely look for an alternative service unless they’re actually told in advance that their section of the train isn’t turning up? Not sure how that would work. Surely the 70-min flex principle only works for those without seat reservations.

Many of the short forms are known about in advance though. Especially if you are starting your journey further away from the starting point (e.g if you are travelling Swindon to Cardiff on a train that has come from Paddington, or Chippenham to Paddington on a train from Bristol), but also still at Paddington or Temple Meads at the starting point of the service (there's been times where either the short from has been announced on journeycheck or I've seen it on RTT before I've left my works London office at kings cross).

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Many of the short forms are known about in advance though. Especially if you are starting your journey further away from the starting point (e.g if you are travelling Swindon to Cardiff on a train that has come from Paddington, or Chippenham to Paddington on a train from Bristol), but also still at Paddington or Temple Meads at the starting point of the service (there's been times where either the short from has been announced on journeycheck or I've seen it on RTT before I've left my works London office at kings cross).

True that’s the case, but how practical is it to contact passengers who are probably already en-route, and when you add the uncertainty of ongoing service updates, set swaps etc, surely it is impractical to suggest that customers can be notified to use other trains.

Anything that is planned the day before should be possible, but then that probably eliminates the majority of instances.

 

[gallafent]

Didcot has an hourly service to Bristol Temple Meads, what it does not have is many services to Cardiff and Swansea. Much easier for South Wales to change at Reading, however this does as mentioned cost more; Given the inconvenient service it should not.

Yup, South Wales often needs two changes, at Didcot and Swindon, to use the cheaper route, too … the introduction of more frequent direct Oxford-Bristols (first stop Swindon) would make that a one-change journey too, which would be great! Let's hope the trial services are popular, and that a way can be found to get a more regular service into the timetable before too long!

 

[ollie_hunt1660]

So did anybody end up trying the new service? What were the loadings like?

 

[Benjwri]

So did anybody end up trying the new service? What were the loadings like?

I was going to go but ended up moving house instead. From what I've heard though the loadings were actually pretty decent.

 

[lachlan]

So did anybody end up trying the new service? What were the loadings like?

I'm planning to try it perhaps in November - thinking about a trip to Oxford and possibly one to Bicester

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

The Bristol to Oxford services seem to have run reasonably to time (within 5L at worst, looking at RTT) so that is also a good sign.