Has the use of air-con stock on railtours affected bookings ?

[co-tr-paul]

Quite a simple question really as per title. I've seen a few railtours cancelled due to lack of bookings this past 9 months , one was even steam which not too long ago was unheard of.
I'm on the CME this Saturday so will see what it's like !

 

[Sun Chariot]

I suspect it's per-seat price and cost of travel to tour's pickup location, which has greater bearing on "go / not go" decision, rather than whether the stock is pressure vent or aircon.
The days of window hanging (my tours era was the 1980s and early 1990s!) have passed.
I did notice 15-Feb's "Verney Venturer" had one a/c TSO fitted with window hoppers - but they alll seemed to be closed.

 

[D Williams]

Lack of disposable income?

 

[Shimbleshanks]

Certainly a big factor in my case. I'm not fond of the closed-in nature of air con carriages at the best of times, and I really wouldn't want to spend hours contemplating the 1970s interior of a Mark 2 or 3 for several hours on a steam special. If you can't hear the thing properly, what's the point of going?

 

[Sun Chariot]

Certainly a big factor in my case. I'm not fond of the closed-in nature of air con carriages at the best of times, and I really wouldn't want to spend hours contemplating the 1970s interior of a Mark 2 or 3 for several hours on a steam special. If you can't hear the thing properly, what's the point of going?

And when the locos are required to 'coast' - to avoid lineside fires - it makes me wonder what the attraction is, these days.
My guess? The dining experience, not the haulage sound.

However... Steam Dreams have tended to use a Mk1 rake. Attached is a photo I took in spring 2024.

 

[LittleRedTrain]

I'd normally do 2/3 railtours every year with RTC (often taking my wife and sometimes even the in-laws in dining), but didn't go on any last year due to the stock. It just doesn't really appeal not being able to hear and smell the loco.

Instead all my railtour spend went to Vintage Trains, who are still running something close to 'proper' stock.

I know the plural of anecdote is not data, but I do wonder how many of the 'one tour a year' repeat customers will come back after having experienced a 'coffin' last year, especially if it was on a hot day with defective aircon.

 

[fgwrich]

Certainly a big factor in my case. I'm not fond of the closed-in nature of air con carriages at the best of times, and I really wouldn't want to spend hours contemplating the 1970s interior of a Mark 2 or 3 for several hours on a steam special. If you can't hear the thing properly, what's the point of going?

Likewise from me. I don’t mind Mk2 ‘Coffins’, just not on Railtours sadly. And particularly Riviera / West Coast’s rake with its 50 incarnations of Virgin Trains (or Arriva).

 

[Iskra]

I'd normally do 2/3 railtours every year with RTC (often taking my wife and sometimes even the in-laws in dining), but didn't go on any last year due to the stock. It just doesn't really appeal not being able to hear and smell the loco.

Instead all my railtour spend went to Vintage Trains, who are still running something close to 'proper' stock.

I know the plural of anecdote is not data, but I do wonder how many of the 'one tour a year' repeat customers will come back after having experienced a 'coffin' last year, especially if it was on a hot day with defective aircon.

Just to point out that the Vintage Trains tours that I’ve been on, haven’t been sold out. That’s not to say they aren’t good tours, it just points to the carriages not being the deciding factor.

I normally do a lot of railtours, but I don’t currently have any booked. It’s more due to it being the same routes and loco’s that seem to appear, the lack of local pick ups on the tours that do interest me or the long days/extremely slow pathing or instances of over-zealous stewarding, rather than anything to do with windows per se. If you are in the carriage behind the loco, which some operators may let you request, then you can still hear it anyway.

 

[Kite159]

Most likely the cancellations of the tours is down to people having less deposable income. Especially when the price of a standard class ticket these days for UKR/Pathfinder is around £140, before you add on the cost of any accommodation if it's required, plus any travelling costs. Booking advance tickets for railtours based on estimated times is highly risky due to the potential of said timings to massively change (i.e. an hour later/earlier). A railtour for 2 passengers can easily set someone back £500 if they require a hotel at least for one night.

As for the Mk2 coaches, they have dampened my interest in railtours, not because they are AC (even if the AC can be hopeless) but because the seats have crap legroom and the coaches with the IC70 (?) fixed armrest seats are not the most comfortable (although the same can be said about the Mk1 bench seats if you get unlucky to get one of the narrower benches at the coach ends)

 

[Wuggie Norple]

I used to travel once a year on with RTC on a Royal Duchy, but no way would I book now with stock without opening toplights, plus the added disincentive of a diesel on the back.

Currently Vintage Trains are the only operator of steam excursions that I will book with. My next outing is on their Shap Mountaineer trip on 29th March with Bahamas. Unassisted steam, opening windows, and the bonus of ‘Enthusiast Class’ guaranteeing a seat in the first passenger coach behind the engine. Perfect! Not surprisingly, several classes of travel are already fully booked.

 

[Iskra]

Most likely the cancellations of the tours is down to people having less deposable income. Especially when the price of a standard class ticket these days for UKR/Pathfinder is around £140, before you add on the cost of any accommodation if it's required, plus any travelling costs. Booking advance tickets for railtours based on estimated times is highly risky due to the potential of said timings to massively change (i.e. an hour later/earlier). A railtour for 2 passengers can easily set someone back £500 if they require a hotel at least for one night.

As for the Mk2 coaches, they have dampened my interest in railtours, not because they are AC (even if the AC can be hopeless) but because the seats have crap legroom and the coaches with the IC70 (?) fixed armrest seats are not the most comfortable (although the same can be said about the Mk1 bench seats if you get unlucky to get one of the narrower benches at the coach ends)

A lot of railtour stock is in a poor state of repair too, and the air conditioning/heating often doesn't work even on some of the more upmarket operators. It can be an expensive, yet uncomfortable day.

 

[JN114]

I don’t do rail tours all that often, but I recently did the Verney Venturer tour with some work colleagues/ former work colleagues - our Mk2 aircon had the small sliding windows at the top; which were indeed opened to their fullest extent for the assault on the Lickey incline!

Crew seemed quite keen to get our opinions on multiple occasions on the tour, so I don’t know if it was part of a trial maybe?

For a cold February day their only real use was enhancing the noise; but in summer if the air con can’t be run (a no heat loco for example) I think the draft would be welcome.

Perhaps I’m too casual a customer to answer; but I’m not sure I’d even be aware before the tour, so it wouldn’t be a reason to cancel or not book for me.

 

[12LDA28C]

Lack of disposable income?

This may be a factor but some people I know simply won't do a railtour that features aircon stock, even if it is booked to be hauled by their preferred traction. Your average rail enthusiast is quite picky (and/or tight!) which is in stark contrast to patrons on trains such as the Statesman or Northern Belle who are mainly wealthy retirees with no such financial concerns.

 

[Kite159]

A lot of railtour stock is in a poor state of repair too, and the air conditioning/heating often doesn't work even on some of the more upmarket operators. It can be an expensive, yet uncomfortable day.

Especially if it's a hot day and the AC fails, like it did on the tour a couple years ago to the storage sidings at Ely.

@12LDA28C I agree about how picky some people can be when it comes to tours and how they will do anything to avoid being hauled by a particular class of locomotive, even if it was for a tiny distance compared to the main loco (i.e. in the days when DB supplied locos, if they supplied a 67 for the rear for train power but for a tiny reversal. Such as an older loco doing all the work on a S&C run to head into the sidings to the south of Carlisle with the 67 being used to haul the train from the sidings to the station.

 

[12LDA28C]

I'd normally do 2/3 railtours every year with RTC (often taking my wife and sometimes even the in-laws in dining), but didn't go on any last year due to the stock. It just doesn't really appeal not being able to hear and smell the loco.

Instead all my railtour spend went to Vintage Trains, who are still running something close to 'proper' stock.

I know the plural of anecdote is not data, but I do wonder how many of the 'one tour a year' repeat customers will come back after having experienced a 'coffin' last year, especially if it was on a hot day with defective aircon.

If steam is your thing (and it may not be) then Saphos use a rake of Mk 1s on their trains and that rake is also often used on Steam Dreams excursions.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Saphos use a rake of Mk 1s on their trains and that rake is also often used on Steam Dreams excursions.

Yep, I think it's the rake in post #5's photo.

 

[Harpo]

I did a tour for the first time in ages recently. £140 and aircon stock.

Never heard the locos at all, only the organisers unwanted, unscripted PA wibble all day, including repeated reminders not to loiter in vestibules, not to open any window, summoning stewards to the doors, etc..

A soulless experience I’ll not repeat.

 

[Spamcan81]

Certainly a big factor in my case. I'm not fond of the closed-in nature of air con carriages at the best of times, and I really wouldn't want to spend hours contemplating the 1970s interior of a Mark 2 or 3 for several hours on a steam special. If you can't hear the thing properly, what's the point of going?

Exactly. I packed up doing steam tours once window hanging was outlawed so being trapped inside an air conditioned coffin has no appeal whatsoever. It’s all about the thrash for me and getting it recorded. Now that is virtually impossible to achieve, I don’t book anymore.

 

[Iskra]

Exactly. I packed up doing steam tours once window hanging was outlawed so being trapped inside an air conditioned coffin has no appeal whatsoever. It’s all about the thrash for me and getting it recorded. Now that is virtually impossible to achieve, I don’t book anymore.

Realistically, the rules on the mainline aren’t going to change.

What operators can control is the manner in which the rules are enforced. Some tolerate the window being open an inch and you listening to the loco, which is a sensible and reasonable way of treating people who have paid a lot of money to be onboard. Others treat you like children, not letting you be out of your seat, constant announcements etc, but then have stewards in all the gangways who are listening to the loco themselves, which the guests are presumably paying for, yet they’re doing exactly what you’re not allowed to…

 

[Bill57p9]

Realistically, the rules on the mainline aren’t going to change.

What operators can control is the manner in which the rules are enforced. Some tolerate the window being open an inch and you listening to the loco, which is a sensible and reasonable way of treating people who have paid a lot of money to be onboard. Others treat you like children, not letting you be out of your seat, constant announcements etc, but then have stewards in all the gangways who are listening to the loco themselves, which the guests are presumably paying for, yet they’re doing exactly what you’re not allowed to…

Hi-vis clothing comes with an invisible force field which stops anything unsafe happening to the wearer. They're amazing things.
See also platform staff standing between the yellow line and the platform edge shouting at paying customers to get back behind the yellow line for their own safety.

Back in the real world, I went on one rail tour last year where it was remarkable how many passengers felt the sudden need to go to the toilet as we approached the bottom of an incline, resulting in a queue in the vestibule. Of course you need a bit of ventilation in there while you wait, so it's only sensible to open the drop light.

I have booked one tour this year, with SRPS so expecting mk1s with venting windows and resulting thrash.

It has to be accepted that, thanks to incidents of yester year it is no longer acceptable on the main line to be leaning out of windows, and that central door locks are a thing. What is a shame is that we have a shortage of compliant pressure ventilated stock where the smells and sounds of the traction can be fully enjoyed. This is simply a consequence of central door locking rolling out after the withdrawal of pressure ventilated stock (MK1, MK2, mk2a, mk2b, mk2c).
The central door lock systems from air con mk2s almost certainly would have fitted mk2b & c however operators were already running mk1s and few of that era of mk2 coach seemed to be preserved

 

[DarloRich]

Do most passengers on a charter train what to hear the loco work? I doubt it. If I go on a puffer tour I want a nice day out with my partner, a good meal, a comfortable journey, a decent wine list and some good company. As long as it chuffs and peeps that all most care about.

BTW - the announcements are because the operator is scared of loosing its license because many of our fellow enthusiasts are unable to behave themselves and insist on leaning out of the window or behaving in a silly fashion. We all know that.

 

[Harpo]

Do most passengers on a charter train what to hear the loco work? I doubt it. If I go on a puffer tour I want a nice day out with my partner, a good meal, a comfortable journey, a decent wine list and some good company. As long as it chuffs and peeps that all most care about.

BTW - the announcements are because the operator is scared of loosing its license because many of our fellow enthusiasts are unable to behave themselves and insist on leaning out of the window or behaving in a silly fashion. We all know that.

Yes please to hearing the loco. Bit pointless having older characterful traction otherwise for me.

Announcements? I’d reckon 50-60% on my recent trip was safety stuff. The rest of the inane amateur wibble wasn’t. It’s very cringey listening to it too. If only there was some loco noise to drown it out!

 

[DarloRich]

Yes please to hearing the loco. Bit pointless having older characterful traction otherwise for me.

Bur do you accept that while, important for you ( and by extension other enthusiasts) , most people don't really care?

 

[Harpo]

Bur do you accept that while, important for you, most people don't really care?

I can only guess at proportions but its not exactly a tiny minority.

 

[DarloRich]

I can only guess at proportions but its not exactly a tiny minority.

maybe - I just think that when I have been with my mum or partner on these services neither have been impressed with the dirty, old, cold carriages on offer and because of that "hearing the loco work" would be quite close to the bottom of the list of interesting things!

Sorry - the above question was a bit blunt. Wasn't meant to be!

 

[Train Maniac]

Very expensive- £140 for the following:

Poor food catering in standard -train left Reading at 7am (unpleasant early start), food trolley with bacon roll and coffee doesnt turn up until almost 11am with prices that would make Avanti blush

Then there is the Air con stock themselves. Can barely hear the locomotive at the front with seats no more comfortable than domestic stock. And then add the fact a family is sitting behind you playing TikTok on full volume for 7 hours straight

OH! And its p*ssing with rain the whole time at the destination!

(Rant over)

So yeah, i can definitely see why bookings are perhaps going down at the moment :/

 

[renegademaster]

Especially if it's a hot day and the AC fails, like it did on the tour a couple years ago to the storage sidings at Ely.

@12LDA28C I agree about how picky some people can be when it comes to tours and how they will do anything to avoid being hauled by a particular class of locomotive, even if it was for a tiny distance compared to the main loco (i.e. in the days when DB supplied locos, if they supplied a 67 for the rear for train power but for a tiny reversal. Such as an older loco doing all the work on a S&C run to head into the sidings to the south of Carlisle with the 67 being used to haul the train from the sidings to the station.

Mark 1s are hardly pleasant on a hot day, especially at low speeds

 

[12LDA28C]

Very expensive- £140 for the following:

Poor food catering in standard -train left Reading at 7am (unpleasant early start), food trolley with bacon roll and coffee doesnt turn up until almost 11am with prices that would make Avanti blush

Then there is the Air con stock themselves. Can barely hear the locomotive at the front with seats no more comfortable than domestic stock. And then add the fact a family is sitting behind you playing TikTok on full volume for 7 hours straight

OH! And its p*ssing with rain the whole time at the destination!

(Rant over)

So yeah, i can definitely see why bookings are perhaps going down at the moment :/

If you think that 7am is an 'unpleasant early start' then I suggest you're not a very regular railtour participant. Most trains have an onboard buffet where you can buy snacks from which means you don't have to wait for the food trolley to make its way down the train (or, heaven forbid, have the foresight to bring some provisions with you).

And of course bad weather at destination is hardly the tour operator's fault.

It always amuses me how cranks were seemingly quite happy to spend all day on air-con stock on service trains in the 1980s (eg. Peaks on the Midland Main Line) but now claim they refuse to do charters using the same stock 'because it's not Mk1s'.

 

[Fundee on Tay]

I’ve never been on a railtour, but I’m very surprised to hear that window hanging has been outright banned! Back before the withdrawal of HSTs I used to search them out to do just that.

My guess is the market is going away from enthusiasts, I can’t fathom why anyone would take the Northern Belle if hauled by a 66.

 

[Train Maniac]

If you think that 7am is an 'unpleasant early start' then I suggest you're not a very regular railtour participant. Most trains have an onboard buffet where you can buy snacks from which means you don't have to wait for the food trolley to make its way down the train (or, heaven forbid, have the foresight to bring some provisions with you).

And of course bad weather at destination is hardly the tour operator's fault.

It always amuses me how cranks were seemingly quite happy to spend all day on air-con stock on service trains in the 1980s (eg. Peaks on the Midland Main Line) but now claim they refuse to do charters using the same stock 'because it's not Mk1s'.

No im not a regular on railtours, this was my first experience. Im much more of a Heritage Railway Gala guy, but i wanted to give it a try.

While i agree with you on the weather, my point still stands, why pay so much money for a miserable experience?

To bring it back to the original question, FWIW i had a lot fun on the InterCity 125 sets and the Norwich 90 Mark 3s. When you take away droplights and the ability to hear and smell the loco at the front you might as well just take an IET