Has the use of air-con stock on railtours affected bookings ?

[co-tr-paul]

Today's steam on S&C has all standard class mk2fs with the new modifications.
Happy.

 

[12LDA28C]

Today's steam on S&C has all standard class mk2fs with the new modifications.
Happy.

That's only two coaches isn't it?

 

[Kite159]

That's only two coaches isn't it?

Looked like it when I saw it passing Preston.
Although it might have only been two standard class coaches, the rest being first class

 

[renegademaster]

Looked like it when I saw it passing Preston.
Although it might have only been two standard class coaches, the rest being first class

That is pretty common with quieter railtours
Very occasionally one

 

[yorksrob]

Today's steam on S&C has all standard class mk2fs with the new modifications.
Happy.

Out of interest, are there not some of the earlier mk2's with opening windows around anyway ?

 

[JonathanH]

Out of interest, are there not some of the earlier mk2's with opening windows around anyway ?

No. Just 5366 with Saphos, and 5453 with WCRC, have Central Door Locking. The Vintage Trains Mk2s are vacuum braked only. The other WCRC Mk2s don't have Central Door Locking, and some of those are also vacuum only.

 

[yorksrob]

No. Just 5366 with Saphos, and 5453 with WCRC.

Shame. They looked like nice trains.

 

[Bevan Price]

Aircon coaches are not my favourites - too many memories of being sat inside them on hot sunny days and aircon not working. But my main reasons for no longer doing railtours are
(1) Mostly getting too expensive.
(2) Possibly more important - many are too much like hard work -- too early starts, late finishes, and often too long drives to get to/from starting & finishing stations.
(3) Too much beer (&other alcohol) sold on trains and/or at intermediate stops. Sadly a proportion of passengers cannot hold their beer without becoming verbally "loud" (or worse), and that makes it unpleasant for other passengers.

 

[renegademaster]

Had railtours not always been early morning late night affairs? Im quite new to the scene

 

[Krokodil]

Had railtours not always been early morning late night affairs? Im quite new to the scene

As one gets older it becomes harder work

 

[12LDA28C]

Had railtours not always been early morning late night affairs? Im quite new to the scene

Yes they have, especially if the destination is a decent distance from the origin point. I remember the days of NENTA Traintours from East Anglia and it was not unknown for their tours to have an 0340 departure from Norwich, returning at 0100 the next morning. That’s why I find it funny when people complain about having to get to a tour for 0700. That’s a decent lie in!

 

[satisnek]

I haven't been on a railtour for more than a decade and it sounds like I'm not missing anything. The first class/dining market was becoming dominant as far back as the 2000s, and that was also the time I began to notice that ordinary service trains to the destination in question were quicker and cheaper than the railtour's standard class fare!

 

[Harpo]

I began to notice that ordinary service trains to the destination in question were quicker and cheaper than the railtour's standard class fare!

Breaks/destinations are also part of the shift to (expensive!) Adex-style railtours.

Journey times have expanded as tours have become more difficult (and occasionally impossible) to path on a faster, more congested railway.

 

[bleeder4]

That's only two coaches isn't it?

Two Standard Class Mk2s with the opening windows on yesterday's tour, plus there was another in the rake of ex-Riviera's which were beside us at Carnforth when we swapped over to Tangmere. Asked a Pathfinder steward about it and he confirmed that those three coaches were the only ones that had been fitted before they were all sold to West Coast. Asked the West Coast fitter on board the tour about whether they planned to fit any more and got a very non-committal response. So I think those three will be it!

 

[co-tr-paul]

So that's only 6054, 5985 and 6158 then.

 

[Peter Sarf]

For me it was the Merrymakers in the 1970s. Pocket money prices. Cheap and cheerful. Plus some other enthusiast tours back in the 1980s. We do not have the spare stock and locomotives for that sort of price and choice these days.

I have looked at rail tours more recently from time to time. Eye wateringly expensive if you do not care about the "luxury". Start times from non-London locations that dictate a hotel for the night before and/or after. Not being able to hear the locomotive would put a dampener on it but would be bearable at a good price.

 

[Richard Scott]

My solution has been to do railtours in other countries that don't fuss about opening windows and allow a common sense approach, added to which they are cheaper. Ok, there's a cost of getting there but there's often that cost in UK. It's worth it to have a proper experience without nanny state fussing and interference.

 

[anothertyke]

I haven't been on a railtour for more than a decade and it sounds like I'm not missing anything. The first class/dining market was becoming dominant as far back as the 2000s, and that was also the time I began to notice that ordinary service trains to the destination in question were quicker and cheaper than the railtour's standard class fare!

I've done maybe three per year since 2012. I'd say pre COVID you have missed quite a lot. I have had runs behind 25 locos visiting places from Aberdeen and Stranraer to Cardiff and Exeter, nearly all with no diesel, and only one or two where it all went pear shaped. But post COVID and CDL it has all changed, Saphos and Belmond are beyond my price range, WCR is air cons with diesel on the back. Last year there were only a couple of trains of interest to my type of enthusiast, both run by Vintage Trains. But the market has gone in a different direction and the cost base has totally changed. C'est la vie.

 

[12LDA28C]

I've done maybe three per year since 2012. I'd say pre COVID you have missed quite a lot. I have had runs behind 25 locos visiting places from Aberdeen and Stranraer to Cardiff and Exeter, nearly all with no diesel, and only one or two where it all went pear shaped. But post COVID and CDL it has all changed, Saphos and Belmond are beyond my price range, WCR is air cons with diesel on the back. Last year there were only a couple of trains of interest to my type of enthusiast, both run by Vintage Trains. But the market has gone in a different direction and the cost base has totally changed. C'est la vie.

I'm not sure what people's issue is with having a diesel on the rear. It's there for insurance and assistance when needed, it's there for shunt/reversing moves/ECS and more importantly it's providing heat/air-con, light and power to the train's electrical systems. You generally can't hear the diesel unless it's powering and if anything it provides more weight which means the steam loco on the front has to work harder! Saphos also have a diesel on the rear of their steam-hauled tours.

 

[Harpo]

I'm not sure what people's issue is with having a diesel on the rear.

The ‘box on the back’ is a big issue with the steam boys in my friendship groups.

They are mostly lads who chased steam to the bitter end in ‘68 and want an unfettered steam run and to be able to hear it.

Almost to a man, they have no time for diesels so to have one shoving away in rear and reducing the demands on the steam loco has no appeal to them. It’s a run that ‘doesn’t count’.

But, as others have said, all of this is of no consequence to those attracted by spending an entire day in the same restaurant and having all three daily meals bought to them without needing to move.

 

[12LDA28C]

The ‘box on the back’ is a big issue with the steam boys in my friendship groups.

They are mostly lads who chased steam to the bitter end in ‘68 and want an unfettered steam run and to be able to hear it.

Almost to a man, they have no time for diesels so to have one shoving away in rear and reducing the demands on the steam loco has no appeal to them. It’s a run that ‘doesn’t count’.

But, as others have said, all of this is of no consequence to those attracted by spending an entire day in the same restaurant and having all three daily meals bought to them without needing to move.

Clearly these 'steam boys' would be happy to sit in the dark and the cold all day then, as long as they could hear the steam loco on the front. As you say, that's a fairly niche outlook and not one that would be held by the majority of passengers on board.

 

[Harpo]

Clearly these 'steam boys' would be happy to sit in the dark and the cold all day then, as long as they could hear the steam loco on the front. As you say, that's a fairly niche outlook and not one that would be held by the majority of passengers on board.

Yes. They’re a hardy bunch and veterans of years of Polish and East German overnights. Today’s hermetically sealed tours are as anathema to them as the box-on-the-back.

 

[Richard Scott]

Clearly these 'steam boys' would be happy to sit in the dark and the cold all day then, as long as they could hear the steam loco on the front. As you say, that's a fairly niche outlook and not one that would be held by the majority of passengers on board.

Lights usually powered by batteries on the coach so any loco could haul the stock and lights would work (definitely had 58s on air con stock with lights working).
As for the cold, was a regular occurance in BR days when all they could find was a no heat 47 in the middle of December so maybe these people have no issue with lack of heat as already experienced it numerous times?!!!!! It was either haul with no heat loco or cancel train, back then former happened, now we know what happens in the 2020s!!!

 

[12LDA28C]

Lights usually powered by batteries on the coach so any loco could haul the stock and lights would work (definitely had 58s on air con stock with lights working).
As for the cold, was a regular occurance in BR days when all they could find was a no heat 47 in the middle of December so maybe these people have no issue with lack of heat as already experienced it numerous times?!!!!! It was either haul with no heat loco or cancel train, back then former happened, now we know what happens in the 2020s!!!

58s on air con stock was usually on short trips like the Nuneaton 'drags' so the batteries didn't have to last more than half an hour or so and of course if the batteries were a bit dodgy, they wouldn't power the lights for very long. I've certainly been on a set of Mk2s with a non-ETH loco on the front where the lights gave up pretty quickly and the CDL failed soon afterwards.

 

[Bikeman78]

I suspect it's per-seat price and cost of travel to tour's pickup location, which has greater bearing on "go / not go" decision, rather than whether the stock is pressure vent or aircon.
The days of window hanging (my tours era was the 1980s and early 1990s!) have passed.
I did notice 15-Feb's "Verney Venturer" had one a/c TSO fitted with window hoppers - but they alll seemed to be closed.

They are little sliding windows. Mine was open all day.

I did a tour for the first time in ages recently. £140 and aircon stock.

Never heard the locos at all, only the organisers unwanted, unscripted PA wibble all day, including repeated reminders not to loiter in vestibules, not to open any window, summoning stewards to the doors, etc..

A soulless experience I’ll not repeat.

I have to say that there were virtually no announcements on the two trips I have been on recently. Thankfully.

Maybe all railtours should just consist of a noisy loco and one coach - problem solved.

Or go for a ride on the Hastings diesel where the engines are inside the coaches.

(3) Too much beer (&other alcohol) sold on trains and/or at intermediate stops. Sadly a proportion of passengers cannot hold their beer without becoming verbally "loud" (or worse), and that makes it unpleasant for other passengers.

Regarding this, I have often noted that halfway through the return run, people have either fallen asleep or started ranting about everything under the sun.

 

[Richard Scott]

58s on air con stock was usually on short trips like the Nuneaton 'drags' so the batteries didn't have to last more than half an hour or so and of course if the batteries were a bit dodgy, they wouldn't power the lights for very long. I've certainly been on a set of Mk2s with a non-ETH loco on the front where the lights gave up pretty quickly and the CDL failed soon afterwards.

Certainly one made it from Birmingham to Paddington many years ago and all was working upon arrival.

 

[kingston_toon]

My solution has been to do railtours in other countries that don't fuss about opening windows and allow a common sense approach, added to which they are cheaper. Ok, there's a cost of getting there but there's often that cost in UK. It's worth it to have a proper experience without nanny state fussing and interference.

This is what I do too. Not even Railtours, often just service trains in places like Portugal, Poland, Czechia, Albania, even Thailand! That list grows smaller every year though.

 

[Bevan Price]

Had railtours not always been early morning late night affairs? Im quite new to the scene

No. Look at the Six Bells Junction site for the 1960s, and you will see that many railtours started at around 09:00. Many, except the longest trips, finished between 18:00 and 20:00.

Six Bells Junction

 

[TheSmiths82]

I have never got the appeal, I can barely afford regular trains. For that old experience I would much rather go on a heritage railway where you often get to experience a few different trains for 1/20th of the price. I have another memories of riding on a MK2 carriage in the early 2000's on a XC service to Stoke. I had no idea what it was and I had a new fangled WAP phone, I remember using it to go on Wikipedia to find out what the carriage was! That was my first memory of using the internet on a phone for something actually useful. I used to dread them so much I used to try and get the Pendolino service, but I must admit now I would quite like to go on a MK2 again, just not on an expensive railtour.

 

[Trainlog]

Here's a photo I took on a tour last year. Arlington Fleet Services at Eastleigh had fitted sliding windows in adjacent window panes of two of the Mk2 coaches that were then owned by Riviera Trains. Those coaches are now owned by WCR, so it remains to be seen whether they will continue with the fitment programme.

View attachment 175378

This certainly does make me more hopeful then, especially if it can allow for the loco to be heard more from the train itself. As I have said previously I don't mind as such what liveries the Mk2s are in as long as tours continue and there is a returning customer base to these tours.

Though to be fair I will miss the Mk1's. My favourite experience on a set was on a UK railtours trip out with Tornado,comfortable original seats and the steam heating on a December trip was certainly a good day trip - my coach was at the rear of the train and you could still very easily hear the whistle and chuff of Tornado.

When I think of the "drama of steam" I enjoyed in the 1985-88 period, on the Scarborough Spa and the Cumbrian Mountain Express - City of Wells and Duchess of Hamilton gloriously full song and me leaning from carriage windows - I think the only comparable experiences in my more recent years, have been narrow gauge steam:

The Welsh Highland Railway - and, overseas, the Cumbres & Toltec Scenic Railway (USA, New Mexico into Colorado) and the Nilghiri Blue Mountain Railway (India, north Tamil Nadu).
No glass in the window frames on those...

That definitely sounds like fantastic experiences, especially with a Duchess on a steep gradient.Of course, in that timeframe, the 9fs (Evening Star,Black Prince) were also available on the mainline, along with Mallard and the footage of them climbing the Settle and Carlisle is great.

For me, I would like to see the Darjeeling Himalayan railway, the sounds of one of those B class locos combined with the views is definitely of interest to do one day.

Not going to happen mainline, but standard issue if you’re sat corridor side at a gala.

I’m immune to the sight of saggy Tesco jeans heading south as two hairy moons bulge northwards. My ears take over from eyes at times like that.

If there has been one thing I have appreciated more over time at heritage railways is the value of non corridor compartment coaches.

Despite the clear point since the late Victorian era when the corridor coaches were introduced in general was to allow for people to move about the train to find seats, buffet, toilet facilities and revenue protection, it does prove annoying for me during galas for this reason (To clarify I find corridor coaches very obviously useful on modern services and railtours).

What ruins it for me is the narrow corridor on the Mk1 compartments and you see the same person (forgivable if it's train staff) that can't make their mind up and are pacing up and down the train and you have to go into the compartment each time until they have passed,the non corridor at least makes sure that everyone has to find a compartment and stay there until they choose to get off at the next station.

Is this an important issue in the grand scheme of things, no not at all, at the end of the day its a very small inconvenience to enthusiasts. However, if we are in a last chance scenario to restore non corridor coaches I would welcome heritage railways to push more appeals to restore them for gala events or hire them out to smaller heritage railways to end the 'that line has nothing but mk1s and a few industrial locos, not worth visiting' excuse.