Has the use of air-con stock on railtours affected bookings ?

[Darandio]

I’ve never been on a railtour, but I’m very surprised to hear that window hanging has been outright banned!

When people are getting killed because of sticking their head out of windows you kind of get left with no choice.

 

[renegademaster]

I’ve never been on a railtour, but I’m very surprised to hear that window hanging has been outright banned! Back before the withdrawal of HSTs I used to search them out to do just that.

My guess is the market is going away from enthusiasts, I can’t fathom why anyone would take the Northern Belle if hauled by a 66.

Some of the shed hauled tours UK railtours have been doing have sold out. Normally aimed at track bashers

 

[Fundee on Tay]

Some of the shed hauled tours UK railtours have been doing have sold out. Normally aimed at track bashers

Different market

When people are getting killed because of sticking their head out of windows you kind of get left with no choice.

It’s a fair point but there has to be a difference between not allowing windows to be opened and outright banning window hanging. I agree that it shouldn’t be allowed on the mainline for a myriad of reasons but if you’re paying hundreds to be on a railtour you should be able to hear the loco.

 

[Neilo09]

I’ve been on a few LSL intercity rail tours now, majority of people didn’t mind air con stock, the rail tours are relaxed and chill, good atmosphere , on one trip there was no issue with door windows down for the likey incline thrash with a pair of 37’s although there was a steward about to make sure no silliness.

RPSI in the south of Ireland run cravens stock with no CDL, opening windows and sell ‘behind the loco seats’, never really experienced any issues with people hanging out of doors and windows from what I seen. It does make a difference to hear and smell a good thrash thorough. Their next tour is available to book if anyone is interested from the uk https://www.steamtrainsireland.com/whats-on/25/premier-branch-line

 

[Train Maniac]

When people are getting killed because of sticking their head out of windows you kind of get left with no choice.

Yes, of course, its always tragic when this happens. However on the Railway Touring Company tour that i was on there were big signs next to the toilet saying not to hang around the window or else you would be chucked off, it just seems a little over the top to me...

 

[DarloRich]

I can’t fathom why anyone would take the Northern Belle if hauled by a 66.

It may surprise you to find out that the patrons of the Northern Belle are not there for the haulage!

hear and smell the loco at the front you might as well just take an IET

I honestly done get this!

Yes, of course, its always tragic when this happens. However on the Railway Touring Company tour that i was on there were big signs next to the toilet saying not to hang around the window or else you would be chucked off, it just seems a little over the top to me...

they are terrified of losing thier license - we ALL know that there is a section of enthusiast who either cant or simply don't know how to behave sensibly. It will only take one and good bye puffer buffer tours!

 

[Train Maniac]

It may surprise you to find out that the patrons of the Northern Belle are not there for the haulage!


I honestly done get this!

Im sure you can agree the Deltic has one of the best engine sounds going? Surely if youve paid a lot of money you would want to be able to experience that terrific sound tearing down the East Coast?

Regarding the 1st class patrons, i agree. To them, any loco will do, but thats only because they are more interested in the champagne! (tounge in cheek)

 

[Mag_seven]

When you take away droplights and the ability to hear and smell the loco at the front you might as well just take an IET

Maybe all railtours should just consist of a noisy loco and one coach - problem solved.

 

[Trainlog]

Mk2s are okay from a spotters point of view, especially if all focus is on a Steam/diesel loco going full thrash. Then I'm not going to really care too hard if they are painted in the same BR Maroon as the mk1s used to be.

However, if mainline tours are going to continue, they will have to listen to their customers' feedback, especially if many are no longer interested in tours as the experience has declined over the course of 10 years. Is it possible to retrofit Mk2s with a small opening window so that people can hear the loco?

 

[Train Maniac]

Maybe all railtours should just consist of a noisy loco and one coach - problem solved.

Thats a brilliant idea mate!

 

[Trainlog]

Maybe all railtours should just consist of a noisy loco and one coach - problem solved.

I appreciate you mean this tongue in cheek; however, Isn't the appeal from the enthusiast's point of view to see locos that feel that they have a 'wasted potential' on heritage railways going at speeds that they used to during their golden age?

To me stripping back the elements that would make this experience worthwhile such as the sounds, smell does just mean that the point of being behind a loco on the mainline feel less worth it. It feels like the only difference the traveller on board this train would notice that it was steam hauled would be an occasional sight of a cloud of steam and a quick glimpse of the loco on a tight curve.

Enthusiasts these days would be better off getting a footplate experience at a local heritage railway if they are able to than spending the equivalent amount of money on a tour that has stripped away what makes travelling behind these locos so great.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Maybe all railtours should just consist of a noisy loco and one coach - problem solved.

Brake-van rides of the 1950s & 1960s. I have seen videos of enthusiasts of that period, even crammed into grot-covered open wagons, to get the last ride down a Beeching-casualty line, before its closure!
I've a 35mm "near head-on" photo, of 50015 Valiant thrashing out of Hereford, with what seems like every occupant's head out of every available window.

RPSI in the south of Ireland run cravens stock with no CDL, opening windows and sell ‘behind the loco seats’, never really experienced any issues with people hanging out of doors and windows from what I seen. It does make a difference to hear and smell a good thrash

One of my all time favourite railtours, was the ITG's The Sligo Avoider back in October 1992. It had:
- Interesting routes (admittedly, running via Gort was a bonus; purely due to derailed container train outside Limerick),
- Wonderful traction (001 class and 141 class),
Cravens coaches, with unrestricted "head-out-windows" time (I still remember spending ages, watching old 053 yawing and sideways-oscillating its way to Ennis!).
- Relaxed company and no selfish silliness.

 

[Kite159]

Mark 1s are hardly pleasant on a hot day, especially at low speeds

Especially if it's the London Transport 4TC set with restricted opening of windows. But I agree, Mk1 coaches are not the best on hot days if they are not moving, i.e. the railtour standard of being put into a loop for 30 minutes for pathing.

 

[12LDA28C]

I’ve never been on a railtour, but I’m very surprised to hear that window hanging has been outright banned! Back before the withdrawal of HSTs I used to search them out to do just that.

My guess is the market is going away from enthusiasts, I can’t fathom why anyone would take the Northern Belle if hauled by a 66.

The Northern Belle is not hauled by a 66, it's usually WCRC 57s. There will always be a market for enthusiast tours featuring heritage traction and/or rare track such as non-passenger lines. That market is rather different from your average 'wine-and-dine' tour which generally starts at £300-400 for a one-day trip for the full FC dining experience.

However, if mainline tours are going to continue, they will have to listen to their customers' feedback, especially if many are no longer interested in tours as the experience has declined over the course of 10 years. Is it possible to retrofit Mk2s with a small opening window so that people can hear the loco?

This has already been done, as mentioned upthread and elsewhere on this forum.

 

[Deepgreen]

I’ve never been on a railtour, but I’m very surprised to hear that window hanging has been outright banned! Back before the withdrawal of HSTs I used to search them out to do just that.

My guess is the market is going away from enthusiasts, I can’t fathom why anyone would take the Northern Belle if hauled by a 66.

It has been banned for years. The incident, many years back, on a class 442 'Gatwick Express' working where a window-hanger (who had sought out the gaurd's door window) was virtually decapitated by a signal post at Balham threw the issue into very sharp relief, especially as he was a railway buff and worked at the Bluebell Railway, showing that even those supposedly au fait with the dangers are not immune.

Northern Belle passengers presumably travel for the scenic journey with the meal(s) served en route, and are probably mostly not enthusiasts per se, and thus don't care what is heading the train.

 

[bleeder4]

However, if mainline tours are going to continue, they will have to listen to their customers' feedback, especially if many are no longer interested in tours as the experience has declined over the course of 10 years. Is it possible to retrofit Mk2s with a small opening window so that people can hear the loco?

Here's a photo I took on a tour last year. Arlington Fleet Services at Eastleigh had fitted sliding windows in adjacent window panes of two of the Mk2 coaches that were then owned by Riviera Trains. Those coaches are now owned by WCR, so it remains to be seen whether they will continue with the fitment programme.

 

[Iskra]

When people are getting killed because of sticking their head out of windows you kind of get left with no choice

Neither of those fatalities occurred on railtours

 

[Darandio]

Neither of those fatalities occurred on railtours

Irrelevant though really, isn't it.

 

[12C]

I don’t know why rail tour stock isn’t just fitted with window bars, like the Cumbrian Coast loco hauled stock had, then the problem is solved.

I’d much rather that, and still have the option to stand by a droplight to get a bit of fresh air, than constant patronising announcements or being shouted at like a child for queuing for the toilet in a vestibule (speaking from experience!).

 

[bleeder4]

I don’t know why rail tour stock isn’t just fitted with window bars, like the Cumbrian Coast loco hauled stock had, then the problem is solved.

I’d much rather that, and still have the option to stand by a droplight to get a bit of fresh air, than constant patronising announcements or being shouted at like a child for queuing for the toilet in a vestibule (speaking from experience!).

The Vintage Trains Mk2As and the Saphos/Steam Dreams Mk1s, are both fitted with bars on the vestibule windows. The Vintage Trains one are horizontal, whereas the Saphos ones are diagonal (which means they offer the added advantage of functioning as a handrail when boarding/leaving the train).

 

[Welly]

I think some of the railtour mk2 aircon coaches really need a deep clean. I was on the "Last Chance" railtour, had a fantastic day out bashing the obscure trackages but the coach I was in smelled really stale and my coat stank of it for days after!

 

[12C]

I think some of the railtour mk2 aircon coaches really need a deep clean. I was on the "Last Chance" railtour, had a fantastic day out bashing the obscure trackages but the coach I was in smelled really stale and my coat stank of it for days after!

This is another issue with air con stock, unless they are in regular use they can soon become damp and develop mould, especially if corrosion/water ingress sets in too.

 

[50031]

Agree with the last post. Hopefully common sense can prevail, with an agreement to allow window bars fitted to door windows in such a way that you can't lean out in a dangerous manner, but you can film and enjoy the sounds, as long as over zealous stewarding is reigned in.

 

[12LDA28C]

The Vintage Trains Mk2As and the Saphos/Steam Dreams Mk1s, are both fitted with bars on the vestibule windows. The Vintage Trains one are horizontal, whereas the Saphos ones are diagonal (which means they offer the added advantage of functioning as a handrail when boarding/leaving the train).

The Statesman Mk2 stock is also fitted with diagonal window bars, as is the LSL ScotRail DBSO Mk3 rake.

 

[31160]

Agree with the last post. Hopefully common sense can prevail, with an agreement to allow window bars fitted to door windows in such a way that you can't lean out in a dangerous manner, but you can film and enjoy the sounds, as long as over zealous stewarding is reigned in.

They will not let you put a camera out the window to film though, no way

 

[Sun Chariot]

Enthusiasts these days would be better off getting a footplate experience at a local heritage railway if they are able to than spending the equivalent amount of money on a tour that has stripped away what makes travelling behind these locos so great.

When I think of the "drama of steam" I enjoyed in the 1985-88 period, on the Scarborough Spa and the Cumbrian Mountain Express - City of Wells and Duchess of Hamilton gloriously full song and me leaning from carriage windows - I think the only comparable experiences in my more recent years, have been narrow gauge steam:

The Welsh Highland Railway - and, overseas, the Cumbres & Toltec Scenic Railway (USA, New Mexico into Colorado) and the Nilghiri Blue Mountain Railway (India, north Tamil Nadu).
No glass in the window frames on those...

 

[Meerkat]

What do/did other passengers think about having the backside right in front of them of someone standing at a drop light, blocking the view out? Would feel like commuting rather than something one had chosen to do!

 

[43096]

It’s a fair point but there has to be a difference between not allowing windows to be opened and outright banning window hanging. I agree that it shouldn’t be allowed on the mainline for a myriad of reasons but if you’re paying hundreds to be on a railtour you should be able to hear the loco.

But if you allow windows to be open there will always be some **** who decides the rules don't apply to them and they can stick their head out. To be blunt, people - and enthusiasts in particular - cannot be trusted.

Yes, of course, its always tragic when this happens. However on the Railway Touring Company tour that i was on there were big signs next to the toilet saying not to hang around the window or else you would be chucked off, it just seems a little over the top to me...

As above. And it isn't over the top. If poeple cannot get the message that the practice of leaning out is banned, then they shouldn't be on the train. It is that simple.

they are terrified of losing thier license - we ALL know that there is a section of enthusiast who either cant or simply don't know how to behave sensibly. It will only take one and good bye puffer buffer tours!

The ORR are very aware of the issue and, yes, the ultimate sanction is available of withdrawing an operator's passenger licence if the ORR thinks that a proportional response to non-compliance. It should be noted that it is the train operator rather than the tour promoter that would be impacted first, so the TOCs make their expectations clear to the tour promoters.

 

[43096]

Agree with the last post. Hopefully common sense can prevail, with an agreement to allow window bars fitted to door windows in such a way that you can't lean out in a dangerous manner, but you can film and enjoy the sounds, as long as over zealous stewarding is reigned in.

I'm afraid there is always someone who will try and get round the window bars, however you arrange them.

You may consider it over zealous, until you are the operator and it is your ability to run tours in future that is at stake.

 

[Harpo]

What do/did other passengers think about having the backside right in front of them of someone standing at a drop light, blocking the view out?

Not going to happen mainline, but standard issue if you’re sat corridor side at a gala.

I’m immune to the sight of saggy Tesco jeans heading south as two hairy moons bulge northwards. My ears take over from eyes at times like that.