Has the wearing of face masks become a left/right issue?

[DustyBin]

Precisely - there wouldn't be any 'anti maskers' if there were no 'maskers' in the first place!!





MARK

Concisely put!

 

[35B]

@Cdd89 makes some quite strong assumptions, that presume that calls for NPIs are and always have been unreasonable, and therefore that opposition to those measures is intrinsically reasonable. What that argument discounts is the evidence, especially but not exclusively from the US, that opposition to NPIs (and Covid vaccination) has been used by some as an issue to create contrast with their political opponents. The example of Mississippi legislating against Covid vaccine mandates when it already has tough mandates for other vaccines is an example of that kind of politicisation.

It is not enough to just say that the opposition is a reaction to something else; the nature and form of that opposition also matter.

For clarity, this is not to suggest that being opposed to particular anti Covid measures means that that individual is necessarily aligned to the politics of those organising that opposition.

 

[DustyBin]

@Cdd89 makes some quite strong assumptions, that presume that calls for NPIs are and always have been unreasonable, and therefore that opposition to those measures is intrinsically reasonable. What that argument discounts is the evidence, especially but not exclusively from the US, that opposition to NPIs (and Covid vaccination) has been used by some as an issue to create contrast with their political opponents. The example of Mississippi legislating against Covid vaccine mandates when it already has tough mandates for other vaccines is an example of that kind of politicisation.

It is not enough to just say that the opposition is a reaction to something else; the nature and form of that opposition also matter.

For clarity, this is not to suggest that being opposed to particular anti Covid measures means that that individual is necessarily aligned to the politics of those organising that opposition.

This thread is about masks specifically and therefore I’d assert that opposition is, and has for a long time been, intrinsically reasonable.

 

[Cdd89]

The example of Mississippi legislating against Covid vaccine mandates when it already has tough mandates for other vaccines is an example of that kind of politicisation.

A fair charge of hypocrisy, but vaccination is not an NPI. Also, I don’t think there is a significant overlap in the U.K., politically, between rejecting masks and rejecting vaccines. If we compare vaccination rates in London with rural areas, a left-right split does not appear to hold true there, either.

@Cdd89 makes some quite strong assumptions, that presume that calls for NPIs are and always have been unreasonable

Society has never accepted significant-inconvenience NPIs outwith a strong justification; unless you can point to another one? I’d suggest seatbelts, for example, are low-inconvenience. Masks are at least a moderate inconvenience. Even those in favour of masks appear to accept they are not low-inconvenience; indeed their inconvenience is part of their selling point as a virtue signal, in showing willingness to “suffer for others”.

Those in favour of masks are thus trying to impose a significant inconvenience NPI upon society in the absence of a strong justification, which, based on voluntary usage rates, the majority of society does not accept. In the U.K., I therefore have no hesitation in stating that side is politicising the issue.

this is not to suggest that being opposed to particular anti Covid measures means that that individual is necessarily aligned to the politics of those organising that opposition.

Those on the left who are in favour of masks have tried — successfully — to define them in terms of left-wing values, such as compassion, caring for the vulnerable, science, self-sacrifice, etc; a lot of people on the left buy into them as a result.

I consider myself to be somewhat on the left and reject this characterisation of masks: I find them dehumanising/reducing empathy, discriminatory, anti-scientific/anti-vaccine, marginalising, anti-environment, and a bar on communication. I also view them as perpetuating inequality, since those in lower paid roles are expected to wear them all day.

In a parallel universe, it doesn’t seem impossible to me that the left would have argued against them for these reasons, and the right in favour (for the converse reasons). And outside the vocal elements of the far-left, support for masks appears low, even in strongly Labour-voting regions; and often higher in Conservative reasons.

 

[35B]

This thread is about masks specifically and therefore I’d assert that opposition is, and has for a long time been, intrinsically reasonable.

As you are entitled to judge. I don't think that voids the other points I make, that the arguments against masking have not always been made from principle, but as a form of political organisation. Unfortunately, the politics of this have aligned masking with other interventions and, whyever we may think that has come about, do show opposition to a range of forms of anti-Covid measure as a political act, rather than being based on principle.

For me, the key demonstration of this was the refusal of the newly appointed Florida surgeon general refusing the request* of a Florida state senator to wear a mask when visiting her office, arguing that the mask was impossible for him to wear, repeating some of the key points underlying the idea of exemption. The kicker, for me, is that this is a doctor who will have had to routinely mask up as part of his training and practice as a doctor - meaning that his argument was both in bad faith and actively misleading.

* - please note, I am not commenting on the reasonableness of her request, and I am entirely willing to believe that the request was political in nature.

Society has never accepted significant-inconvenience NPIs outwith a strong justification; unless you can point to another one? I’d suggest seatbelts, for example, are low-inconvenience. Masks are at least a moderate inconvenience. Even those in favour of masks appear to accept they are not low-inconvenience; indeed their inconvenience is part of their selling point as a virtue signal, in showing willingness to “suffer for others”.

Those in favour of masks are thus trying to impose a significant inconvenience NPI upon society in the absence of a strong justification, which, based on voluntary usage rates, the majority of society does not accept. In the U.K., I therefore have no hesitation in stating that side is politicising the issue.


Those on the left who are in favour of masks have tried — successfully — to define them in terms of left-wing values, such as compassion, caring for the vulnerable, science, self-sacrifice, etc; a lot of people on the left buy into them as a result.

I consider myself to be somewhat on the left and reject this characterisation of masks: I find them dehumanising/reducing empathy, discriminatory, anti-scientific/anti-vaccine, marginalising, anti-environment, and a bar on communication. I also view them as perpetuating inequality, since those in lower paid roles are expected to wear them all day.

In a parallel universe, it doesn’t seem impossible to me that the left would have argued against them for these reasons, and the right in favour (for the converse reasons). And outside the vocal elements of the far-left, support for masks appears low, even in strongly Labour-voting regions; and often higher in Conservative reasons.

I agree with much of your characterisation of how mask wearing has become an accepted norm, but would question how deliberate that attempt was or is - I consider we're much more in the world of deeply held beliefs. As for mask wearing, I would characterise it as low inconvenience - and our logics then follow.

 

[43066]

to define them in terms of left-wing values, such as compassion, caring for the vulnerable, science, self-sacrifice, etc;

Is science a value? I’d say the lack of evidence that masks work make them more of an anti science measure, based more around feelings and emotion than hard facts.

 

[DustyBin]

As you are entitled to judge. I don't think that voids the other points I make, that the arguments against masking have not always been made from principle, but as a form of political organisation. Unfortunately, the politics of this have aligned masking with other interventions and, whyever we may think that has come about, do show opposition to a range of forms of anti-Covid measure as a political act, rather than being based on principle.

For me, the key demonstration of this was the refusal of the newly appointed Florida surgeon general refusing the request* of a Florida state senator to wear a mask when visiting her office, arguing that the mask was impossible for him to wear, repeating some of the key points underlying the idea of exemption. The kicker, for me, is that this is a doctor who will have had to routinely mask up as part of his training and practice as a doctor - meaning that his argument was both in bad faith and actively misleading.

* - please note, I am not commenting on the reasonableness of her request, and I am entirely willing to believe that the request was political in nature.

So what you appear to be saying, in response to the thread title, is “yes” and I agree to point. I do however see this as political posturing by the minority and not something that factors in the decision making of most ordinary people, who either don’t wear one because they find it uncomfortable, or wear one because they think it may offer them some level of protection however small. Politics doesn’t come into it for the majority of people.

There are of course those with strong views who aren’t politically motivated, but rather would simply like to see evidence in support of mask wearing (and any other NPI for that matter). Indeed this is evident on this forum where there are a good number of left-leaning posters whose views align with my own. Then there are the virtue signallers (who I’ll admit to generally characterising as left-wing) who wear a mask to gain validation via social media. A strange mindset but they walk among us!

 

[NorthKent1989]

From my experience (among my circle, social media, external scenarios etc) it tends to be those on the authoritarian left who insist on masks, and back all restrictions going, sadly this group has the loudest voices.

 

[DustyBin]

From my experience (among my circle, social media, external scenarios etc) it tends to be those on the authoritarian left who insist on masks, and back all restrictions going, sadly this group has the loudest voices.

Generally I agree, it's the usual "vocal minority" problem....

 

[jumble]

A fair charge of hypocrisy, but vaccination is not an NPI. Also, I don’t think there is a significant overlap in the U.K., politically, between rejecting masks and rejecting vaccines. If we compare vaccination rates in London with rural areas, a left-right split does not appear to hold true there, either.


Society has never accepted significant-inconvenience NPIs outwith a strong justification; unless you can point to another one? I’d suggest seatbelts, for example, are low-inconvenience. Masks are at least a moderate inconvenience. Even those in favour of masks appear to accept they are not low-inconvenience; indeed their inconvenience is part of their selling point as a virtue signal, in showing willingness to “suffer for others”.

Those in favour of masks are thus trying to impose a significant inconvenience NPI upon society in the absence of a strong justification, which, based on voluntary usage rates, the majority of society does not accept. In the U.K., I therefore have no hesitation in stating that side is politicising the issue.


Those on the left who are in favour of masks have tried — successfully — to define them in terms of left-wing values, such as compassion, caring for the vulnerable, science, self-sacrifice, etc; a lot of people on the left buy into them as a result.

I consider myself to be somewhat on the left and reject this characterisation of masks: I find them dehumanising/reducing empathy, discriminatory, anti-scientific/anti-vaccine, marginalising, anti-environment, and a bar on communication. I also view them as perpetuating inequality, since those in lower paid roles are expected to wear them all day.

In a parallel universe, it doesn’t seem impossible to me that the left would have argued against them for these reasons, and the right in favour (for the converse reasons). And outside the vocal elements of the far-left, support for masks appears low, even in strongly Labour-voting regions; and often higher in Conservative reasons.

There is no point in comparing seatbelts with masks
Seatbelts have been mandated by our elected representatives and I comply with the law and will cheerfully obey
Masks have been demandated by the same elected representatives and so in my view anyone else pontificating about them has no business to be doing so and can be ignored
Sadiq Kahn has politicised it as he wishes to flex his power and oppose the government. Fortunately he has been ineffective

 

[John Luxton]

There is no point in comparing seatbelts with masks
Seatbelts have been mandated by our elected representatives and I comply with the law and will cheerfully obey
Masks have been demandated by the same elected representatives and so in my view anyone else pontificating about them has no business to be doing so and can be ignored
Sadiq Kahn has politicised it as he wishes to flex his power and oppose the government. Fortunately he has been ineffective

I think everyone understands the science behind seatbelts and it would be a very silly person who disagreed, especially when we realise just how many lives they save.

The science behind facemasks is very dodgy remember early 2020 when scientists couldn't agree on the benefits? Some still don't but have been effectively silenced / side lined or branded cranks by MSM.

I agree with the sentiment that the mask issue has become political and is a left right issue. As a lifelong tory, I find given their enthusiasm for masks last year, even though they have now let them go in England that was enough to convince me along with subsequent economic policy to decide that have just become another party of the left.

Unfortunately, in doing this they are driving some of us traditionally middle of the road Tories further to the right.

 

[DustyBin]

I think everyone understands the science behind seatbelts and it would be a very silly person who disagreed, especially when we realise just how many lives they save.

The science behind facemasks is very dodgy remember early 2020 when scientists couldn't agree on the benefits? Some still don't but have been effectively silenced / side lined or branded cranks by MSM.

I agree with the sentiment that the mask issue has become political and is a left right issue. As a lifelong tory, I find given their enthusiasm for masks last year, even though they have now let them go in England that was enough to convince me along with subsequent economic policy to decide that have just become another party of the left.

Unfortunately, in doing this they are driving some of us traditionally middle of the road Tories further to the right.

I'm in a similar position to yourself. I recently quipped that it feels like I went to bed with Boris Johnson and woke up with Caroline Lucas (metaphorically speaking)!

 

[John Luxton]

I'm in a similar position to yourself. I recently quipped that it feels like I went to bed with Boris Johnson and woke up with Caroline Lucas (metaphorically speaking)!

I agree with that sentiment as well not only have we got blue labour but also blue green too!

Ironically I had a lot of faith in Boris and was really pleased when he was elected as he has made the conservatives electable in so many areas. - But it all went sour for me last March. True Covid was a problem but it was seen as a massive socialistic style power grab opportunity and some of the methods used to gain compliance very questionable. I started seeing parallels to Europe in the 1930s/40s under the far right and then in the 50s/60s under the far left in the east.

With regard to the green policy being rammed down our throats I saw one waggish comment earlier today - that is all the responsibility of Carrie Antoinette.

 

[Mat17]

Well I'm centre right wing and I still wear masks, on public transport at least.

So I don't think it's a left/right thing at all (certainly more an authoritarian versus libertarian split). I firmly believe it should be a matter of personal choice. I choose to continue, simply to protect myself, typical selfish right wing I know. I can't speak for covid, but I haven't had a cold since I've been wearing them... so I'm happy to continue, along with hand sanitizer (which I think is more effective over all to be honest).

I don't believe the government should dictate such things though, the government should butt out and stop infringing on people's personal freedoms.

 

[NorthKent1989]

I think everyone understands the science behind seatbelts and it would be a very silly person who disagreed, especially when we realise just how many lives they save.

The science behind facemasks is very dodgy remember early 2020 when scientists couldn't agree on the benefits? Some still don't but have been effectively silenced / side lined or branded cranks by MSM.

I agree with the sentiment that the mask issue has become political and is a left right issue. As a lifelong tory, I find given their enthusiasm for masks last year, even though they have now let them go in England that was enough to convince me along with subsequent economic policy to decide that have just become another party of the left.

Unfortunately, in doing this they are driving some of us traditionally middle of the road Tories further to the right.

It does feel that the main parties have switched, under Starmer you have a Red Tory and under Johnson you have a Blue Labour.

I can see the Tories losing a fair few seats in the Middle England South for this reason, some may go Lib Dem (the only mainstream party showing some opposition to Covid passports) and I wouldn’t rule out Reform (formerly Brexit party) gaining a few seats either due to disgruntled traditional tories being disgruntled with the Tories under Johnson.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Well I'm centre right wing and I still wear masks, on public transport at least.

So I don't think it's a left/right thing at all (certainly more an authoritarian versus libertarian split). I firmly believe it should be a matter of personal choice. I choose to continue, simply to protect myself, typical selfish right wing I know. I can't speak for covid, but I haven't had a cold since I've been wearing them... so I'm happy to continue, along with hand sanitizer (which I think is more effective over all to be honest).

Here's the bit I don't understand.

We were told they were to protect others and not ourselves yet we now have people wearing them to protect themselves.

This is two steps from some people's reality. It just goes to show how much science we make up in our own heads?

 

[John Luxton]

Here's the bit I don't understand.

We were told they were to protect others and not ourselves yet we now have people wearing them to protect themselves.

This is two steps from some people's reality. It just goes to show how much science we make up in our own heads?

The wear to protect others really was just the Behavioural Insights Team using psychology to gain compliance, it it had been just to protect yourself - most would not have complied.

What was done was close to brainwashing particularly of some people, you can tell from their reaction when you state one will not wear a mask.

The number of arguments I have got into over my refusal to comply and possibly killing someone are numerous since last spring.

As Matt17 said above masks should have been a personal choice.

People should do their own risk assessments - those with certain conditions, those who show symptoms, those who tend to easily catch colds and flu should wear them.

But for the rest of us we should be able to chose based on our own health. It must be over 20 years since I had a heavy cold, never had flu (not had flu vax either by the way) but I have worked in the same environment with colleagues who have gone sick with flu.

Thus I am fairly confident that my immune system protects me and because I seldom catch things I am less likely to pass anything on to others.

Just common sense really - but decisions should be made by individuals - once it gets into the politicians hands it is unacceptable.

 

[bramling]

Here's the bit I don't understand.

We were told they were to protect others and not ourselves yet we now have people wearing them to protect themselves.

Spot on, and if I pound for every time I've heard "well I'm still wearing my mask, I don't want want to catch Covid". Ditto the fact that I don't think I've seen a single person wearing an FFP mask.

When one thinks about it, considering the fuss being made over masks in certain quarters, this is very odd indeed. Has, for example, Sadiq Khan issues FFP3 masks to all TFL staff?

 

[greyman42]

The number of arguments I have got into over my refusal to comply and possibly killing someone are numerous since last spring.

I also refused to comply but have had very little bother from anyone.

 

[Mat17]

Here's the bit I don't understand.

We were told they were to protect others and not ourselves yet we now have people wearing them to protect themselves.

This is two steps from some people's reality. It just goes to show how much science we make up in our own heads?

I totally understand where you're coming from. Believe it or not, I was one of those people who hated the idea of masks coming in and thought they'd be useless and thought I'd be one of the first to be rid of them when the time came.

I don't know if it's true that they protect others more than the wearer or not, or simply they are nothing more than a placebo.

All I know is that I used to be one of those people on the bus or train who used to catch every cold going, one after another, heavy colds etc.

Since wearing the masks, or more frequent hand sanitising, or both, something seems to have prevented me catching colds so far. So until I catch one, i'll keep wearing the masks on trains through till next March/April at least. I don't wear them anywhere else though, except in shops which are really busy.

I'm not a scientist or even vaguely knowledgeable about viruses etc. All I know is that something has worked. I've been sat one buses in the last three weeks with people sniffling and sneezing, full of cold, and I thought, here we go... Even with those people sat behind me, and I haven't caught even the vaguest of sniffles.

 

[DustyBin]

I totally understand where you're coming from. Believe it or not, I was one of those people who hated the idea of masks coming in and thought they'd be useless and thought I'd be one of the first to be rid of them when the time came.

I don't know if it's true that they protect others more than the wearer or not, or simply they are nothing more than a placebo.

All I know is that I used to be one of those people on the bus or train who used to catch every cold going, one after another, heavy colds etc.

Since wearing the masks, or more frequent hand sanitising, or both, something seems to have prevented me catching colds so far. So until I catch one, i'll keep wearing the masks on trains through till next March/April at least. I don't wear them anywhere else though, except in shops which are really busy.

I'm not a scientist or even vaguely knowledgeable about viruses etc. All I know is that something has worked. I've been sat one buses in the last three weeks with people sniffling and sneezing, full of cold, and I thought, here we go... Even with those people sat behind me, and I haven't caught even the vaguest of sniffles.

Just be careful as your immune system does benefit from a "workout" every so often. I have no medical qualifications incidentally but it is widely accepted that this is the case.

 

[43066]

All I know is that I used to be one of those people on the bus or train who used to catch every cold going, one after another, heavy colds etc.

Since wearing the masks, or more frequent hand sanitising, or both, something seems to have prevented me catching colds so far. So until I catch one, i'll keep wearing the masks on trains through till next March/April at least. I don't wear them anywhere else though, except in shops which are really busy.

We have all socialised far less and had far fewer contacts over the last couple of years, that’s much more likely to be why you’ve not caught a cold. In fact the lack of transmission of viruses is well known and is a bit of a time bomb as the NHS is going to find out this winter…

 

[bramling]

We have all socialised far less and had far fewer contacts over the last couple of years, that’s much more likely to be why you’ve not caught a cold. In fact the lack of transmission of viruses is well known and is a bit of a time bomb as the NHS is going to find out this winter…

It does seem to be the case that a lot of people are getting colds at the moment. I've just had one (took the opportunity to have a Covid test - negative), and certainly lots of people I know have had similar. Who'd have thought it, getting a cold in autumn?!

Needless to say, our usual suspect at work has had about a dozen colds, off work pending a Covid test every time.

What surprises me is a lot of people seem to think that having a cold is some kind of alien concept.

 

[Yew]

I think everyone understands the science behind seatbelts and it would be a very silly person who disagreed, especially when we realise just how many lives they save.

Indeed, and I imagine that if, after introducing seat belt rules, we had not seen a corresponding drop in raoad deaths of the type a seatbelt would prevent, we would have revised our position.

 

[John Luxton]

or more frequent hand sanitising,

I am inclined to think the hand sanitising is the more important. After I went on my first cruise back in 2008 and encountered the additional sanitising before going in for meals I started buying the stuff and had been using it long before Covid. Also keep one in the car. However, if I am out on public transport I don't have it, though do use it when I get home. Only buy those large containers of it - not the sort of thing to carry around.

 

[AlterEgo]

Is science a value? I’d say the lack of evidence that masks work make them more of an anti science measure, based more around feelings and emotion than hard facts.

Science, if it is a value, is not a left wing one. The authoritarian left tends to follow “science” when it suits their objectives, like enforcing collectivism or subjecting people to state control. The liberal right prefers to follow “science” when it enhances freedom of choice, market expansion, etc.

 

[John Luxton]

Science, if it is a value, is not a left wing one. The authoritarian left tends to follow “science” when it suits their objectives, like enforcing collectivism or subjecting people to state control. The liberal right prefers to follow “science” when it enhances freedom of choice, market expansion, etc.

Thus at present both main parties are on the left as Conservative strategy towards covid does not enhance freedom of choice nor market expansion. Rather works against both. How many businesses have gone to the wall since March 2020! Just confirms the Tories are now a left wing party. Our only hope is one of the neo-Con parties now appearing in response to restrictions and other topical issues.

 

[bramling]

I agree with that sentiment as well not only have we got blue labour but also blue green too!

Ironically I had a lot of faith in Boris and was really pleased when he was elected as he has made the conservatives electable in so many areas. - But it all went sour for me last March. True Covid was a problem but it was seen as a massive socialistic style power grab opportunity and some of the methods used to gain compliance very questionable. I started seeing parallels to Europe in the 1930s/40s under the far right and then in the 50s/60s under the far left in the east.

Can't disagree with any of this. I was always dubious of Boris Johnson, but like others felt at the time it was probably the only option on the table. With his mayoralty not having been a total shambles, I hoped this was a good omen. I'm absolutely livid at the way this government have behaved, and Johnson in particular. I can't stand the sight of his face on my TV screen, and the Conservatives have a *very* long way to go to regain my vote. The only snag is the other parties are just as bad.

To be honest, I'm disgusted with the way Covid has been handled.

 

[43066]

Science, if it is a value, is not a left wing one. The authoritarian left tends to follow “science” when it suits their objectives, like enforcing collectivism or subjecting people to state control. The liberal right prefers to follow “science” when it enhances freedom of choice, market expansion, etc.

Indeed.

I suppose that can clearly be seen in the apparent willingness of many of the left to believe the weak and inconclusive evidence around masks, when presented as a justification for mandation, while simultaneously ignoring the strong evidence of vaccine efficacy. Confirmation bias at its finest.

 

[Busaholic]

Our only hope is one of the neo-Con parties now appearing in response to restrictions and other topical issues.

Your hope = my dread.